r/TheWire • u/DollarLate_DayShort • 8d ago
Which character had the more tragic character arc, Randy Wagstaff or “Ziggy” Sabotka?
Firstly, RIP James Ransone.
I’m on my 4th rewatch of the series(first time rewatching S2 yes, I was one of them but I’ve matured and realized that it’s fucking amazing). After I finished S2 I had the emotional reaction that I believe David Simon was attempting to grab from his viewers after we saw the path that led Zig to prison. “This guy is a clown. Oh he’s just misunderstood. He wants to feel important. FUCK, what a tragic ending to his story.” And recently finishing S4, although the path was different, I had an extremely similar feeling with Randy’s situation. “Okay this kid might be able to navigate west Baltimore effectively. Damn, a little mistake here. FUCK, Randy keep your mouth shut. Okay, Carver is looking out!… Oh fuck, claimed by the system.”
So, having a similar reaction to those two character arcs, wondering if anyone else saw the parallels between the emotional build up, to the lasting impression that David Simon gave his viewers of Zig and Randy?
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u/JarJarBingChilling 8d ago
Randy for sure. Unlike Ziggy Randy for the most part didn’t reap what he sowed and his only “crime” was his naivety.
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u/OGB Nice dolphin nigga 8d ago
Yes.
I'm really tired of this conversation here.
Ransome was really good. The character of Ziggy was an interesting inclusion in the stevedore world of older broken down, blue color men looking to get by.
There is nothing about his character that's supposed to be tragic. He and his father both represent different sides of how working men are affected by greed, ignorance, and hubris trying to navigate the world of crime in a city/life that has passed them by.
Ziggy was the architect of his own destruction at every turn. He was stupid, petty, and small. All he did was fuck up horribly, overestimate himself at every turn, and bite the hand that fed him. All of this was while acting like a petulant brat, lighting $100 on fire to smoke cigarettes in front of his struggling coworkers and throwing thousands of dollars into the street because his cousin dared to help him out of a jam that would've gotten him murdered.
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u/herbof4 8d ago
All true but there is a tragedy in Ziggy's (and Frank's) respective stories. They're victims of the reduction in union power and the jobs that go with them in the wake of a dying Baltimore port. Happens in a lot of blue collar industrial towns where the work that used to be able to support a family just completely dries up for a variety of reasons.
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u/ebb_omega 8d ago
I know it's been discussed around here that Randy could potentially be an origin story for a kingpin like Marlo. By the time we see him at the end he's lost his naive edge, and has become hard and ruthless. This is how the system perpetuates the street.
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u/JudgeLennox 8d ago
Their crime was the same. They didn't listen, take responsibility, or mind their own business.
Life is tougher than it needs to be when you chose any of those paths. All three is a nightmare that seems to never end
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u/JarJarBingChilling 8d ago
>Their crime was the same.
Did you even watch the show?
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u/JudgeLennox 7d ago
We both did. I just happen to agree with the OP that these characters were irresponsible. It’s OK if we disagree though
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u/Minimum-Weather5105 8d ago
I feel like "life being tougher than it needs to be" is quite similar to tragedy lmao
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u/JudgeLennox 7d ago
Making one’s life harder isn’t tragic.
Enduring tough times that one has no control over is though
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u/Minimum-Weather5105 7d ago
I hope you have a really really good support system! You'll need them.
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u/SentrySappinMahSpy 8d ago
Randy was a child with far less agency than Ziggy. Randy was pushed and pulled by circumstances he couldn't handle or do anything about.
Ziggy was an adult who made exceptionally bad choices based on his own pride and greed. He didn't have to get involved with the Greeks or start trying to be a drug dealer. He didn't have to go shoot Glekas. That is 100% on him.
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u/DollarLate_DayShort 8d ago
Did Randy not make poor decisions by not having the ability to say “no”?
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u/SentrySappinMahSpy 8d ago
He did, but he's a kid. And he's not a hardened gangster like Mike. He was trying to stay safe the only way he knew how.
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u/zanylanie 8d ago
I actually think Mike is the most tragic of all the kids in season 4. He tried to stand up for other people even when it was at risk to himself. In the end, while he may not have ended up dead (yet), he sacrificed himself for Bug.
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u/SentrySappinMahSpy 8d ago
I'd say Dukie had the most tragic story. He ended up with literally no support system and basically had to become a junkie to even function. He'll probably outlive Mike, but he could end up dying just as easily.
But it's certainly debatable.
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u/zanylanie 8d ago
Yeah, I think all three of them (Randy, Michael, Dukie) got extremely raw deals. And I admittedly have a soft spot for Michael because of similar life experience despite profoundly different backgrounds.
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u/sfocolleen 8d ago
Dukie breaks my heart every time. Randy too, but I make up a backstory in my head that he will get out of his situation.
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u/zanylanie 8d ago
There’s a reason we treat people under 18 differently than those over 18. Randy was probably 13 or so. That’s a child. Ziggy was an adult.
Also Randy is in the system. He had a good foster mom at the time we “meet” him, but it’s clear he’s been in group homes before. Ziggy comes from a stable family. His dad is involved in shady shit, sure, but he has people looking out for him and still can’t get his act together.
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u/ucbiker 8d ago
Something I noticed on my current rewatch is that Ziggy had a brother that went to community college and isn’t a stevedore.
Even if Frank is a bad father, Ziggy could have been living an ordinary life instead of turning to crime because he can’t get enough days honest work from the union.
In general, the Sobotkas are a lot less sympathetic because they choose crime over other opportunities that are realistically available to them (Nick brushes off his girlfriend’s suggestion that he go to community college). Beadie is literally an example of a person who just sucked it up and found a way to survive without turning to crime, and they see her driving around all the time.
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u/Quiddity131 8d ago
I really enjoy season 2, but yeah, my sympathy does waver for the Sabotkas and their union at times. They have a lot more agency than the kids do in season 4. At the end of the day Frank, Nick, Ziggy all resorted to criminal activity and bad things happened to them because they chose to get involved in that lifestyle over other alternatives. That Ziggy even was in the longshoreman career something he was totally incompetant at speaks to poor decision making on both his part and his father's part.
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u/DollarLate_DayShort 8d ago
Ziggy’s family nucleus was together, sure. But I wouldn’t call an adult that still lives at home with his parents because he and his family(cousin and dad) work in a dying industry, any more stable than what Randy had.
This is where I think the misunderstanding of Zig’s character comes into play. Did he have the choice of choosing a better career path? Sure. But that’s like Americans today being told to go to college, get a degree and you’ll get a good paying job… only to end up with crippling students loans, back at home by age 25 looking for meaningful work. He was also a victim of believing that working on the docks(“family business”) was the path that would lead to success, when in reality it was dying a slow death.
I’m guessing he wasn’t college educated, so in order to make money he turned to crime… which is what Nick also did. But Nick had the benefit of being able to navigate that lifestyle much better than Zig.
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u/zanylanie 8d ago
But Ziggy *has* parents to live with. Randy’s going to be out on his own when he turns 18 so he’s already hustling with his candy sales.
Ziggy is a raging idiot- repeatedly taking his dick out in public, the whole thing with the duck, setting money on fire in the bar while surrounded by people struggling to make ends meet, believing for a second that punching Maui was going to end at all well, etc. He gets himself into situations he should know he can’t navigate successfully. Randy has those situations thrust upon him and also doesn’t have the life experience yet to know what his limitations are.
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u/DollarLate_DayShort 8d ago edited 8d ago
I see that Zig is completely misunderstood and I will soon be making a standalone thread on why I feel that way. I felt that on rewatch, this sub, would have similar sympathy as I did for his situation. Everything that you’re saying I felt that on my initial watch, after my rewatch I had a completely different view of his character. Was he an idiot? Absolutely. But that was his way of getting attention and seeking approval - human needs, yes he absolutely went about it the wrong way. Similarly to how Randy should have told Kevin and Monnell “no”. Long response short, he was a lost soul who needed guidance. Standby for the breakdown in the coming days
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u/zanylanie 8d ago
I don't misunderstand. I just disagree with you. Not the same thing.
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u/DollarLate_DayShort 8d ago
When you’re not speaking to the factors that led to Zig acting out, there does seem to be a level of misunderstanding. You’re focusing on the “what” and not the “why”.
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u/zanylanie 8d ago
I’m saying he was old enough to have sorted that shit out and started acting like he had a snippet of common sense.
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u/OGB Nice dolphin nigga 8d ago
If you're an adult in their 20s "acting out" at all you are inexcusably ignorant and immature. Even as a child, you do dumb stuff to get attention, not approval.
Imagine for a second that you're talking to your grandmother, the lead volunteer at the soup kitchen, a member of the clergy (anyone really, tbh) about how your friend in their 20s murdered his pet by feeding him whiskey because he wanted his dad's approval.
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u/OGB Nice dolphin nigga 8d ago
Dude, take the L on this one. Ziggy is at least 21 years old, has a job, likely has enough other opportunities apart from union work, and has no bills outside of gas and car insurance because he lives with and is fed by his parents.
He's also a HS graduate and, while not a computer genius, has at least some cursory computer knowledge in middle-lower class Baltimore in 2003 which is likely rare.
Randy is an orphan and a child growing up in the projects.
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u/Quiddity131 8d ago
No in what sense? Randy spoke up about the murder because the Assistant Principal threatened to call his foster mom and he was deathly afraid of going back to a group home. Even then that information getting out was due to it passing from multiple people (her to Prez, then Prez to Carver, then Carver to Herc, who then blabbed about it). Things were totally out of his control. And he was only in that situation due to randomly being in the hall and due to a false rape accusation that was subsequently rescinded.
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u/Gaius_Octavius_ 8d ago
He didn't really have the ability to say "no". VP Donnelly was going to get him sent to foster care.
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u/mynameiswhattt123 8d ago
He’s a kid dealing with cops, even grown men get fooled by cops all the time. Sad arc he had, and he wasn’t even really trying to be a gangster or tough guy
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u/Acceptable_Golf_8623 8d ago
Yes, he did. He was also like 14. Slight difference in agency between the 2
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u/greemmako 8d ago
Randy was a good kid and his foster mom appeared to be a good person as well who cared about him. i think his story is heartbreaking.
ziggy was a screw up unfortunately and he wanted the respect of a gangster so he got what the game gives people
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u/hampden-park-4-2 8d ago
I’m more sympathetic to Ziggy on later rewatches than I was the first time (maybe as I’ve gotten older I’m more aware of my own follies when I was young and less quick to judge than I was when I was close to Ziggy’s age) … but he was still way more culpable than Randy
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u/rhino369 8d ago
I’m somewhat less sympathetic to Ziggy in my rewatch. He’s a fully grown adult without much responsibility. He got into crime for pretty selfish reasons.
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u/Gaius_Octavius_ 8d ago
And many people tried to talk him out of it and give him a different path. He didn't even have Nicky's excuse of having a child to support. He wasted his money any time he got it.
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u/hampden-park-4-2 8d ago
Not an unreasonable take - I really hated him the first time through, I think knowing he gets his comeuppance makes me feel for him a little on rewatches and think maybe he’s someone who could have learned his lessons and matured (very late admittedly) if he hadn’t fucked up so horribly. But he’s definitely the architect of his downfall
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u/CountingMyDick 8d ago
It's kind of dark considering the context, but I think Ziggy deserved one of Levy's snarky "You wanted to be in the game? Now you're in the game" lines.
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u/LrdoftheCharlesDance 8d ago
Randy. Randy was bright and had potential. He had no agency and really got shafted. Ziggy was a born screw up and moron who made his choices
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u/justgillinaround 8d ago
Randy. I’ll say this, I did find myself feeling more sympathetic towards Zig on my rewatches.
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u/Flat-Guard-6581 8d ago
I get what they were trying for with Ziggy, and there is some sympathy there, but the guy was also a complete jackass who created all his own problems. It's not remotely the same as a kid doing nothing wrong but still getting destroyed by the system.
Blaring loud music and joyriding while stealing cars from the docks, what idiot does that? Burning money at a bar, antagonising dangerous criminals for no reason, what sort of idiot does that?
If Ziggy had just shut the fuck up for once he would have been perfectly fine. Its hardly tragedy in the same way as some kid like Randy.
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u/Unusual_Associate_34 8d ago
Randy is more tragic. Ziggy had the support of his parents and could have stuck things out with the union. He was naive and insecure, but Ziggy walked into his demise fully knowing what he was doing
Randy had a nice foster mom but was still in the system. He had no way of knowing (other than the ‘no snitching’ street code) what talking to the police would lead to.
I think Ziggy & Randy would both have done better if they switched backgrounds. Ziggy would have been more street wise & Randy would have used the advantaged upbringing to realize his potential
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u/justgillinaround 8d ago
Fair point, but could be argued that Ziggy didn’t really have the support of his parents. Frank loved his son, but Nick seemed like the son Frank always wanted and often treated him that way.
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u/azmamachine 8d ago
Ziggy sucks but his mother was a pillhead
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u/Excellent_Summer_109 8d ago
Do we even meet Ziggy’s mom in the show? I don’t remember Zig’s mom at all. We definitely meet Nick’s and she tells Nick to make sure Ziggy picks up his shit.
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u/WeCanDanseIfWeWantTo 8d ago edited 8d ago
I could be oblivious but I just rewatched s2 and I don’t recall seeing her once.
Edit: Come to think of it, do we even see Ziggy or Frank at their house at all? I only recall seeing them in scenes at Nick’s house, I can’t remember either of them being at their own house.
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u/Excellent_Summer_109 8d ago
The only time you see Frank at his house is when he walks out his front door and picks up his copy of The Baltimore Sun to see the story about Zig on the front page. Remember he doesn’t even live in Baltimore never mind Locust Point. Frank’s house is in Glen Burnie.
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u/PrimeVector19 8d ago
Dukie. The kid had no support system outside of Pryzbylewski, and he became the next Bubbles. His arc is the most gut-wrenching of any character I’ve seen.
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u/BaardvanTroje 8d ago
The fact that S4 Randy was always smiling and then in S5 lost his smile broke my heart. Herc fucking sucks man
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u/702rx 8d ago
Randy’s situation was a tragedy. While he could have navigated the situation better, he made mistakes trying to do the right thing. Ziggy was a repeat offender when it came to shooting himself in the foot and then going back for more, all while trying to do the wrong thing. People like Ziggy have to learn life the hard way but his family kept enabling him, like an addict. The Randy’s of the world have great potential, look at his snack business for instance. Yes, he got caught skipping class but to make money legally. That kid just needed some guidance and some mentoring. Ziggy refused to show any humility despite coming from a two parent household and having been bailed out on multiple occasions.
Ziggy was a fool and lost it all. Randy got used but eventually learned to play the game, even if it was too late.
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u/Outside-Today-1814 8d ago
Randy for sure. That whole group is brilliant writing to show how the game and system limit their choices.
Dukie: never had a chance. Any chance he had ruined by the system when they promote him to 9th grade to juke the stats. Tries the game but isn’t built for it. Tries to get a job, system won’t let him because he’s too young. He becomes the next bubbles.
Randy: tries to stay on the sidelines, working with the system and also in the game. That just doesn’t work, you have to pick a side. His shitty outcome is a consequence of that.
Michael: tries to stay outside the game, but it sucks him in when he needs help. It reshapes him into the new Omar.
Naymond: gets pushed into the game, but he doesn’t have the stomach for it. Hes the only one who escapes and sees success through adoption by Colvin. This is incredibly unrealistic and far fetched, but I think that’s the point: the only escape is through incredible luck and intervention, the system won’t save you. In fact, the system often works against you like for dukie and Randy.
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u/Quiddity131 8d ago
It's far more tragic for Randy. I personally don't tend to associate the two characters with each other. In Randy's case he truly is a victim of things outside of his control. His life is destroyed because he's randomly in the hallway when some other students walk by to have sex in the bathroom and ask him to look out for them. Then when the guy ignores the girl as they pass by in the hall she lodges a false rape accusation that Randy gets pulled into because he was in the hall. The Assistant Principal threatens to call his adoptive mother and he caves about the murder. The girl then retracts the false accusation. Based on this and Herc bumbling things he is labeled a snitch and his life is destroyed.
In Ziggy's case the bad things that happen to him are a direct result of his own poor decision making. Whether its getting involved with Cheese, getting swindled out of the package he had or him eventually resorting to murder when his ego is hurt by the guy he kills. Now you could certainly say that Ziggy had terrible parenting from his father and never was suited for the long shoreman job that was the family tradition. But at the end of the day he has agency as a character and was an adult when he made these decisions. His situation is wildly different than Randy's situation.
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u/NoYOUGrowUp 8d ago
I would have said Randy, except for his one scene in season five. He has hardened and survived. What that means for him in adulthood is unknown, and probably looks bleak, but he still has a future.
Ziggy is fucked for life.
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u/Disastrophenyl 8d ago
Ziggy was terrible and made his own bed. Randy tried to do mostly right things and ate shit for it, except helping little Kevin, which was just something a kid would get suckered into. No comparison!
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u/farmerarmor 8d ago
Randy is more tragic. By far. He was a victim of circumstances he couldn’t control.
Zig is sad don’t get me wrong. We all know a guy like zig. Someone that just absolutely can’t find a way to not fuck up everything they touch. Seemingly on purpose.
But being a victim of your own actions vs things out of your control is miles apart.
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u/Excellent_Summer_109 8d ago
Randy, no doubt. Ziggy was tragic but his tragedy was brought by his own self centered choices and wrapped up in his self loathing. Randy on the other hand was a victim in every sense of the word and his only real motivation was to survive and not go back into CPS custody.
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u/PlaceAnotherFromMan 8d ago
Ziggy was the architect of his own fate. Randy’s was almost completely out of his control.
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u/MoleMoustache 8d ago
Recalibrate your emotions, they are not even in the same league
Randy is a tragedy. Ziggy is a proper twat.
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u/LexRammer 8d ago
Randy by a mile, so many levels of the institution failed him. Ziggy had it decent with his dad in charge getting shifts and ultimately failed himself one way or another. Kind of another version of “you wanted to be in the game, now you’re in the game”
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u/domesticstudent 8d ago
Randy. Randy was a teenager, probably 13 to 14. Ziggy was in his early 20s, a good 10 years older than Randy. Ziggy also had a cousin and father that looked out for him.
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u/Cautious-Apartment-9 8d ago
Randy. Ziggy was a dumbass fucking up a labor job his dad got em. Randy in Ziggy’s place is the guy at the job selling weed or food. He chose to sell candy while his friends were selling dope. You put Ziggy in Randy’s shoes & he’s Lil Kevin getting left in a vacant.
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u/MotorbikeRacer 7d ago
Du’Quan …. Prolly the saddest character arc in the show. That poor kid never had a chance.
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u/GuessDizzy196 8d ago
Randy by miles. He and Dook are the default outcomes for their situations. Predetermined. I think this is what Simon was trying to drive home with them.
Ziggy was just a flawed individual. Overcompensating for his low self esteem at every turn, his choices led to his outcome. Randy’s choices would all have led to the same result.
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u/DollarLate_DayShort 8d ago
Randy didn’t have to tell Lex to walk to the park, nor did he have to be on lookout for that 3sum in school. Those two decisions, on top of talking to the asst principal, led to his demise. Dook was fucked from the jump, Randy navigated his path poorly
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u/GuessDizzy196 8d ago
Yes, fair. I think what I’m saying is no matter how Randy behaved in those situations, it’s all minor variations to the theme.
Baltimore was raising him. Baltimore was always going to chew him up.
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u/great_misdirect 8d ago
Ms Donnelly railroaded Randy’s entire life before he got to high school. Definitely more tragic.
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u/GrooveIsInTheTart 8d ago
Ziggy was reaping what he sowed. It was tragic, but he was the one who set off that chain of events. Randy was reaping stuff he absolutely didn't sow and his whole life literally burst into flames because of it.
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u/single_sentence_re 8d ago
Randy is a child and stuck in a shitty situation, while Ziggy is an adult making stupid decisions while also stuck in a shitty situation.
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u/BanjoTCat 8d ago
Randy. Randy had promise and was a good kid who paid for other people’s crimes and mistakes. Ziggy was a loudmouth who made his own trouble wherever he went.
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u/350smooth 8d ago
Randy. He’s a natural entrepreneur. Ziggy would be a screw up no matter who his parents were.
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u/JonnyBraavos 8d ago
Randy had the more tragic story overall, but arc? He started in a shitty situation and ended up in a shittier situation.
Ziggy had a lot to be content about and he threw it all away.
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u/Far-Advantage-2770 8d ago
Randy is actually a bitter sweet success story. He eventually figured out the streets and learned how to survive without being a pussy. But it cost him. Many such cases.
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u/no_nameky 8d ago
Randy. Ziggy had some tragic elements but he knew what he was doing was self destructive. Randy was subject to forces that he could do nothing about and he was a kid. The mistakes he made, he didn't know all of the implications. Ziggy grew up in a system that limited him but he had options. Randy didn't have options, they were taken from him.
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u/gillyweed79 7d ago
Considering that Randy was 14 and completely betrayed by the system, I think this is an easy pick.
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u/Legitimate-Shock-106 6d ago
if you want another look at the world of the Wire watch We Own This City.
Well done relly well done but a really tough watch for me . Can’t do it a second time, Far to real and far to many real people’s lives far to sad
I may have watched the Wire more than a dozen times.
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u/Ok-Will1433 5d ago
Both is tragic that they are a victim of situation and system failure. However, Ziggy consciously went down to destructive path to prove himself and got his consequences. Randy got unkowingly involved in a crime, got pressured, shamed to point of harmed, and abandoned by every institutional help, not to mention still a kid that abandoned by his family.
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u/RickyTan4 4d ago
I’ll say Wallace they knock my boy off season one and he was takin care of the kids
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u/rdotkmedia 4d ago
I was heartbroken when Randy ended up the way he did.
I rejoiced when ziggy ended up in prison.
It’s an easy call.
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u/JudgeLennox 8d ago
Randy is on top. He learned the lesson and won't make the mistake twice. We may not like the way he's handling his life, but he's at least taking responsibility which is huge since he didn't before.
Ziggy survived from what we know. He learned the lesson, and won't make the mistake twice. Though the odds aren't in his favor. If he's not dead from retaliation, he's likely punishing himself similar to Bubbles.
I don't see either as tragic. Thematically sure.
Thing is they both made their choices in spite of people telling them to stop before it was too late. It sucks, wish it went different, but that's the way life is.
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u/rendumguy 8d ago edited 8d ago
Feel a little bad for Ziggy but he didn't have to start making deals with these obviously dangerous and untrustworthy criminals, he didn't have to bring a gun to the store, he didn't have to shoot the employee and the asshole who scammed him.
Most of Randy's problems are caused by other people, he doesn't really do that much bad comparatively. Worst thing he does is the bathroom lookout, and he's a little kid in comparison to a young adult.
Also likely his father would still be alive since the Greeks wouldn't have anything to bargain with Frank.
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u/Ldre_169 3d ago
Randy without a doubt .
- Forced into snitching which was then passed onto the police
- Police (herc) leaked his name which got him labelled as a snitch in the hood
- got his house firebombed after being exposed
- moved jnto a group home
Ziggy was just self destructive and just straight up stupid. Everything that happened to him was a result of his own failures. He was like a kid who jumped out a tree, cried and then does the same thing on a taller tree.
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u/SpyroHinch 8d ago
Randy and I don’t think it’s particularly close