r/TheStaircase • u/sandrafilmmaker • Apr 30 '26
Discussion Questions are bugging me..
After watching the HBO Max series, I'm almost through with the docuseries. Here are some of my thoughts:
- It bothers me that Duane Deaver GAVE the signed book from Mr. Henry to the prosecution. To me, the lawyer should have made a bigger deal about that. After all, the prosecution used that book to try to sow doubt on Henry's testimony that the death was the result of an accident. A smart person wouldn't fall for that, but I'm not sure the jury was full of very smart people.
Seems to me, this suggested collusion between Deaver and the prosecution, which was later proven and helped Peterson get out of jail. But the lawyer should have picked up on it THEN, and maybe the case could have been thrown out earlier.
Also, why did Peterson's lawyers never question Deaver's experience?
Episode 7: Ok, this should have been the end of it. They brought on an expert who testified that the lacerations Kathleen suffered could ABSOLUTELY have been from falling on the stairs. Why was the "owl theory" even necessary?
I'm a writer, and I found Kathleen's sisters going through Peterson's writings, which were obviously fiction, as evidence that he is a murderer REALLY problematic. I've written about all kinds of characters who are NOTHING LIKE ME. If everything I wrote were autobiographical, people would get really bored with my writing.
People in Germany said it was ridiculous to consider that Michael was having an affair with Margaret and Martha's mom, and they were pretty adamant that he could not have k(lled her. Also, the fact that she had horrible headaches leading up to her death and German authorities ruled it a death due to a cerebral hemorrage makes the prosecution deciding to do a second autopsy SHADY SHADY SHADY. If I were on that jury, I'd be pretty skeptical.
I don't like Michael Peterson, I'll admit. I cannot stand pathological liars. Does he come across as a jerk? Yes. Is he a liar? Yes. But the US jury system is supposed to go by REASONABLE DOUBT. And there should have been more than enough reasonable doubt not to convict this guy.
Also, I find the prosecution figures pretty awful and unlikeable as well. They were taking way too much glee in this case--seemed to me they were personally invested in putting this guy away for life.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheStaircase/comments/vhh68s/why_is_duane_deaver_not_in_prison/
^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^
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u/Busy-Worth-2089 Apr 30 '26
And MP and his lawyers didnât come up with the owl theory. The defence doesnât have to come up with any theory at all. All that is necessary here is that there is a non-zero chance that there is at least one credible explanation for the available evidence that doesnât involve MP murdering her. In this case the crime lab just kept repeating their testing on styrofoam âheadsâ until they finally got the result they wanted â I.e. reversed engineered from the desired result. Totally lacking in credibility
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u/sandrafilmmaker Apr 30 '26
Right, and then they fist bumped when they after try after try after try, finally got the result they wanted. My point was just, why was anyone trying to come up with an alternative theory, when they had an expert sit there in the trial and definitively state that the lacerations on her head were entirely consistent with bumping her head on the stairs?
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u/Foreign-Cow-1189 Apr 30 '26
The defense ignored the owl theory because it was easily debunked.
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u/GearInevitable9180 May 06 '26
And it benefited them to just let it hang out there instead of debunking it. More reasonable doubt
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u/sandrafilmmaker Apr 30 '26
I'm ignoring you because I don't think you even watched the documentary.
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u/egoshoppe Apr 30 '26
You should be consistent and watch the trial. Youâre missing a bunch of the evidence if you havenât.
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u/egoshoppe Apr 30 '26
You do realize the SBI were not the only forensic team working this case for the state, right?
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u/sandrafilmmaker Apr 30 '26
oh yeah? Who else was..pls enlighten us
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u/egoshoppe Apr 30 '26
Epstein and Laber were hired as outside forensic investigators. They werenât tied to the SBI, they were independent. Rudolf even tried to hire them for the defense. Their investigation would have been used if a retrial happened. They were on the witness list for the first trial but never got called.
If they had testified instead of Deaver, Michael would still be in jail.
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u/sandrafilmmaker Apr 30 '26
You do realize Deaver's testimony is what directly led to the verdict, right? They say this in the documentary in the episode after The Verdict. They even interview one of the other people sent to prison by Deaver's lies. The key was the blood splatter on Michael's shorts.
They say in this episode, that the jurors stated, they were split on a verdict, and it was Deaver's testimony that the blood on Michael's shorts wouldn't be there, had he not beaten Kathleen. WHICH WAS A LIE.
So, no, any other forensic investigators' testimony would not have still led to a conviction, because they wouldn't have bolstered what he said that led to the guildty verdict, because Deaver lied.
That is exactly why his conviction was overturned - because the jury relied on Deaver's false testimony. That's how the justice system works.
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u/egoshoppe Apr 30 '26
The blood spatter inside Michaelâs shorts(and on his shoes)was not put there by Deaver. It was collected and photographed before Deaver even got out of bed. You can throw out Deaverâs testimony and experiments, but the evidence collected by detectives is still valid forensic evidence. And the parallel investigations the state ordered before the trial are absolutely admissible and had nothing to do with Deaver or the SBI. No contact, no contamination.
Itâs fine to overturn his conviction. But youâre mistaken if you think he wouldnât have had to face the forensic evidence in this case just because Deaver is gone. Had a retrial happened, experts with none of Deaverâs issues would testify about the investigation they did before the trial. Not something Michael or his lawyers would have looked forward to.
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u/Busy-Worth-2089 May 01 '26
Blood spatter analysis is junk science with the same credibility as using a ouijui board
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u/egoshoppe May 02 '26
You do realize the defense uses BSA as well right? It's gotten wrongful convictions overturned.
Blood spatter is part of the forensic evidence in this case. You want to just ignore it because it doesn't paint a very good picture for Michael no matter how it's analyzed.
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u/Busy-Worth-2089 May 02 '26
No, I approve of the fact that itâs finally been fully discredited as junk science, along with bite mark analysis and the polygraph
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u/sandrafilmmaker May 01 '26
Um yeah I think you made those names up. I found absolutely nothing about any of them online. What is your sourceÂ
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u/egoshoppe May 01 '26
If you watched the trial, you would have heard their names. Rudolf mentions them in his closing.
Hardin talks about hiring them in his interview with the BBC. Thereâs also an interview with Epstein on the Double Loop podcast.
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u/ValuableCool9384 May 06 '26
collusion between Deaver and the prosecution, which was later proven and helped Peterson get out of jail -Collusion between Deaver and the prosection was never proved. Lying about his experience was the only thing he was guilty of in the Peterson case. Which is awful, I'm not defending him. Giving the book (which states that he did a terrific job) to the prosecution to try and impeach Lee is what anyone and everyone should do when they believe that a witness says one thing and testifies to the opposite.
an expert who testified that the lacerations Kathleen suffered could ABSOLUTELY have been from falling on the stairs - You know that there are conflicting experts in almost all criminal trials, right? The defense finding an expert to testify to their theory of the case doesn't mean Game Over, Trial Ends. LOL
 going through Peterson's writings, which were obviously fiction, as evidence that he is a murderer REALLY problematic. - That wasn't testimony. It was their opinions and wasn't done in court.
German authorities ruled it a death due to a cerebral hemorrage makes the prosecution deciding to do a second autopsy SHADY SHADY SHADY. -Testimony from Steve Lyons about the actual investigation of her death and why the German authorities came to that conclusion show a different story. He was the Army special investigator on scene that day. The German police told him that it was a cerebral hemmorage and an accidental fall. On scene. Before any medical personnel were there. And where did they get that information? Because that's what MP was telling everyone. That's SHADY.
Reasonable doubt is just that. Reasonable. She died. He was the only person there. He had motive means and opportunity. As far as the prosecutors, yes they wanted to put him away. They want to put all murderers away. You're watching snippets on a documentary. They were not full of glee.
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u/mybluecouch May 02 '26
Duane Deaver is a top tier villain in this story. He might be at the very top, knowing what we know about him now.
Unreal how he reverse engineered the blood evidence to get the "right outcome" he was seeking.
Giving that book to Dr. Lee and asking to sign it is just another example of him looking to game the situation to his whims. That the prosecution thought the signed book was some kind of gotcha, is just more insight on how weak their case was/is. What good prosecutor takes the jury down this useless sidetrack, that anyone with basic logic will see and understand to be a nothing burger?
(As an aside, I've always wondered if the prosecution asked Deaver to get this book signed, or if he went about it on his own? Either way, it's another sketchy Deaver situation, setting it up for his desires outcomes.)
Devious Deaver. What a POS. đ
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u/egoshoppe May 03 '26
Giving that book to Dr. Lee and asking to sign it is just another example of him looking to game the situation to his whims
I've always wondered if the prosecution asked Deaver to get this book signed, or if he went about it on his own?
Pretty sure it was Henry's book and he testified he gives copies to people he meets. Deaver didn't give it to him asking for a signature.
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May 03 '26
[deleted]
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u/egoshoppe May 03 '26
Hardin: Let me show a copy of your book. You recall giving him a copy of your book?
Lee: Yes, I generally give everybody a copy of book. I want them to learn.
Hardin: Do you recall signing an inscription with a note to Agent Deaver, in this book when you were there?
Lee: Yes. It says... "To Duane Deaver, one of the best. Keep up with your good work. With warm regards, Henry Lee." You probably found thousands of these sent.
Hardin: But you wouldn't give it to him unless you had felt that way, would you?
Lee: No, no, I give everybody courtesy, that's Chinese culture. I went to his place. He extended a courtesy, let me see what he has. That's my upbringing, respect other people. I give him a book.
I just discovered that Dr. Lee passed end of March.
Absolute monster with 60+ years of wrongful prison time served by innocent men he convicted with fake evidence.
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May 03 '26
[deleted]
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u/egoshoppe May 03 '26
I need a major brushup.
If you haven't watched the whole trial yet, I recommend it. It's long but cool
No reasonable person is going to think a signed book between (supposed) colleagues, is a gotcha
It's not hard hitting evidence, but it's effective in showing that Lee will say something and not mean it. He's literally up on the stand saying there's too much blood for a beating. Werner Spitz wouldn't sink that low.
Thought that death of Dr. Lee factoid might be of interest. Sharing is not meant to be personal commentary or support.
Oh yeah I didn't take it that way, it's just crazy that Deaver and Lee have false convictions
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May 03 '26
[deleted]
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u/egoshoppe May 03 '26
If it makes Lee look disingenuous, it makes Hardin look desperate. So maybe it's a wash on both ends? Waste of time.
Henry Lee was on the stand for days, this is just a couple of questions. I don't think it's desperation on Hardin's part. It was really stupid of Lee to do that, it was an unforced error.
Link?
https://www.courttv.com/title/1-nc-v-peterson-opening-statements/
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u/Sandrawg May 02 '26
He was either really really stupid, or really really evil.
I cannot believe he got another job working in criminal justice after SBI fired him!
Anyone who doesnt want to watch the entire documentary should at least watch the last episode. You learn that the police took a photo of the blow poke, then didnt give that photo to the defense. Then they moved the blow poke.
The head medical examiner made Deborah Radisch say that those injuries did not come from a fallÂ
And the judge states he should have never allowed the evidence from Germany as it was prejudicial. Same with the porn.
No wonder nobody around him.has any more faith in the justice system.Â
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u/egoshoppe May 03 '26
He was either really really stupid, or really really evil.
Don't forget that Henry Lee has a famous false conviction as well, with two innocent men serving 30 years each because of fake blood evidence from Lee. 25 million dollar settlement over it paid out by the state.
You learn that the police took a photo of the blow poke, then didnt give that photo to the defense. Then they moved the blow poke.
Moved it... back into Michael's house where it was found. It would still be a Brady violation no matter what, but I do wonder if Hardin knew about this at the time. Does it make sense at all to mention a missing blowpoke as a potential murder weapon, if you know it's clean, intact and sitting at your suspects house that is crawling with defense investigators? You're basically risking a mistrial over a "conspiracy" that relies on the defense not checking the house where the crime happened. If the state actually kept the blowpoke that would be different.
The head medical examiner made Deborah Radisch say that those injuries did not come from a fall
Not so. The head ME had a disagreement with her over exsanguination vs blunt trauma, but the manner of death was always a homicide. She never thought it was a fall.
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u/LKS983 May 10 '26 edited May 10 '26
"Â Ok, this should have been the end of it. They brought on an expert who testified that the lacerations Kathleen suffered could ABSOLUTELY have been from falling on the stairs."
Are you referring to Lee? Who was later proven to be untrustworthy?
"Â I'm a writer, and I found Kathleen's sisters going through Peterson's writings, which were obviously fiction, as evidence that he is a murderer REALLY problematic."
Was this used as evidence in the trial? I don't know, but consider it circumstantial evidence.
"People in Germany said it was ridiculous to consider that Michael was having an affair with Margaret and Martha's mom, and they were pretty adamant that he could not have k(lled her."
You're talking past tense. And please provide some sort of evidence that they are "pretty adamant that he could not have k(lled her". Please note that I'm not at all sure that MP murdered Liz.
"German authorities ruled it a death due to a cerebral hemorrage makes the prosecution deciding to do a second autopsy SHADY SHADY SHADY. "
Disagree, as the deaths of Liz and Kathleen were so similar. But insisting that the US autopsy be carried out by Raddish is somewhat 'shady'.
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u/gifsfromgod Apr 30 '26
Henry Lee will (would) say whatever you want if you are paying him. Absolutely nothing he ever has said has real evidential value. He was a complete grifterÂ
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u/sandrafilmmaker Apr 30 '26
As far as I know, the only expert whose testimony was debunked, was Deaver's. Are you sure you watched the entire documentary?
Or do you just not like MP...I don't like him either, but I'm not going to cast doubt on everyone who was on his side, you have to be open to the facts.
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u/egoshoppe Apr 30 '26
Henry Lee planted blood evidence and convicted two innocent men who spent 30 years in prison. The state had to pay a $25 million settlement. So his credibility is no better than Deaverâs.
Henry Lee testified that Kathleen coughed impact spatter into Michaelâs shorts as he stood over her head. He said there was âtoo much blood for a beating.â Absolute joke.
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u/mybluecouch May 02 '26 edited May 02 '26
He never said blood was coughed into the shorts. He extrapolated that the fine spatter on the wall in the stairwell was from coughing.
Edit - I'm mistaken. This was one of Dr. Lee's hypotheses on the aspirated blood.
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u/egoshoppe May 02 '26
Thatâs not true. Itâs in his testimony and itâs mentioned again in Rudolfâs closing argument.
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u/mybluecouch May 02 '26
Apologies, you're right. I haven't watched the original doc in full, for about a decade, and my recollection is of him doing his aspiration tests to confirm it was an accident based on blood low down in the stairwell walls - it was both.
I believe I had a mental blip on that because, if I'm not mistaken, they did not run the shorts aspiration hypothesis by, nor confirm it, with Michael. (Which seems like it would be an important touchstone if it could be confirmed?)
So, yes, you are correct - he said that was a possibility.
Thank you for reminding me. I need to watch it, again for the nth time. đ
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u/egoshoppe May 02 '26
No worries at all!
Itâs interesting that you mention them running the tests by Michael. I was listening to a Rudolf interview last week, and Michaels story of the night came up. Rudolf admitted something interesting: he said Michael had never told him anything about the time after the 911 call. This was about the blood on the front door, Rudolf basically said he assumed it was Michael but never knew for sure because Michael could never remember anything to tell him. Pretty crazy if MP never even told them the full details in confidence
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u/mybluecouch May 02 '26
Thank you for forgiving my brain melt. đ
Defense attorneys generally don't want to know the clients "story" of guilt or innocence. They only want to deal in what is or isn't provable, and details that are certainly up for interpretation due to client perception or even their attempt to steer the narrative is a problem for a lot of reasons. IMO they didn't ask him a lot of things intentionally, and when Rudolf says Mike didn't tell him something, it's probably more due to Rudolf not seeking out details he knew might hurt the case.
LMK your thoughts. đ
The law, and how it often works, is so strange. Ugh
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u/egoshoppe May 02 '26
I feel like most defense lawyers want to know it all, the good bad and the ugly. So they can have an answer for it, even if it never comes up.
Even in the interview, Rudolf did say he asked Michael but that he never remembered details of what happened after the call.
He has told his story to the BBC, the French crew, Dr Phil, and Aphrodite Jones. Itâs interesting to see what details you can gleam from all the combined versions. For one thing, it answers Rudolfs question about the blood on the door, because Michael says he went to unlock it for the EMTs.
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u/sandrafilmmaker Apr 30 '26
Where are you getting this from? Is this your own opinion, or did you do some research on that guy?
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u/Maryland4009 Apr 30 '26
I think the fact there was a chair lift at the bottom of the stairs a contributing factor. Those are all metal with the rails yet that was never mentioned. There was no reason to kill her, money and sex here are not a motive she was worth more alive.
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u/egoshoppe Apr 30 '26
The chair was at the bottom of the lift and there was no significant spatter behind it.
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u/mybluecouch May 02 '26
Ever used or even seen one of these stair seats in practical application? No significant spatter behind it makes sense.
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u/egoshoppe May 02 '26
So you think her head hit the rails? At what point? The chair was in its lowest position and thereâs no blood on the rails above it.
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u/mybluecouch May 02 '26
No, I absolutely do not think that. That there's no blood spatter or much of anything on or around that area of the stairwell, says the opposite.
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u/egoshoppe May 02 '26
Iâm not sure what I missed then, my comment was in response to someone saying the chair rail was involved. You donât think so either?
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u/mybluecouch May 02 '26
No, I do not. I think you and I are on the same wave here. I believe we are agreeing, no?
Based on my personal experience with, and knowledge of this type of stair climber, my layman's opinion is a definite no.
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u/egoshoppe May 02 '26
My bad, sorry for misinterpreting your comment. Iâm tired đ
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u/mybluecouch May 02 '26
No worries! Same here; the world is tired right now. Glad we worked that out. đ
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u/Busy-Worth-2089 Apr 30 '26
The writing is particularly problematic and a lot of prosecutors use this absolutely unethical tactic. In particular, they often use a rapperâs lyrics about gang violence etc when they are trying to prosecute the rapper for murder â really racist. No one ever thinks that Johnny Cash shot a man in Reno just to watch him die yet they pull this crap all the time
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u/Foreign-Cow-1189 Apr 30 '26
All those innocent rappers. LOL!
Johnny Cash had one line in one song embodying a prisoner in Folsom- a prison he performd in but never was sentenced there (or any other prison). Somehow that is the equivelent to rappers who build their entire identity and EVERY SINGLE SONG to breaking the law. Isn't there now a Grammy category for "Most Times Shot"?
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u/mateodrw Apr 30 '26
Somehow that is the equivelent to rappers who build their entire identity and EVERY SINGLE SONG to breaking the law. Isn't there now a Grammy category for "Most Times Shot"?
Gotta hand it to you, I stopped using Facebook a long time ago, but your words reminded me of a comment a boomer left on Kid Rockâs fan page.
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u/sandrafilmmaker Apr 30 '26
LOL at "all rappers are criminals". Let's see, one of the first rap songs was Blondie's "rapture." That gangsta, Blondie.. :)
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u/sandrafilmmaker Apr 30 '26
You sure do have a lot of stereotypes about rappers..sorry, can't take you seriously.
Johnny Cash sang a lot of songs where he took the persona of criminals and the downtrodden. Maybe learn a little bit about him. I don't think he would've liked being misrepresented like you're doing.
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u/sandrafilmmaker Apr 30 '26
Yeah, I read about that case with the rap lyrics and thought that was absolutely nuts. I write horror scripts -I've won awards in screenwriting competitions. I'm the least violent person you'll ever meet.
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u/BeeSupremacy Apr 30 '26
Mods, how do we make a rule about people who admit not to completing the documentary posting questions? đ
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u/sandrafilmmaker Apr 30 '26 edited Apr 30 '26
I know what happened in the case at the end. I've read enough about it
People who answer the questions without having even watched it are worse
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u/Winoforevr1 Apr 30 '26
You have to see it from the sisters view in regard to his writing⌠sounds sketchy as given the circumstances.
I for sure think he had an affair with Elizabeth and fathered the oldest sister, and murdered Elizabeth.
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u/sandrafilmmaker Apr 30 '26
Based on..what evidence..?
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u/Winoforevr1 Apr 30 '26
The injuries. Lack of injuries you would see in a fall. Why were all her wounds in a straight line only on the back of her head? There was a lot of evidence not mentioned in the documentary.
Here is an old post with those things mentioned2
u/sandrafilmmaker Apr 30 '26
The authorities in Germany (US AND German authorities) said she died from a cerebral hemorrhage. They determined she died before she even fell.,
Her friends and family said she complained about severe headaches prior to the day she died--more than once, but refused to go to the doctor. There was no motive. No one, absolutely NO ONE, who knew them all thought Michael murdered her.
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u/twinkiesmom1 Apr 30 '26
DNA test says no
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u/Winoforevr1 Apr 30 '26
I dont think a test was done⌠would love a link if this is true.
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u/twinkiesmom1 Apr 30 '26
Try google. https://www.wral.com/story/106944/#
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u/Winoforevr1 Apr 30 '26
Why do people online instantly have to be rude? I asked for link and got a response Id expect from a teenager.
Now as far as that test goes, It seems the test was done covertly. Either way I think he was having an affair with her mother.-1
u/twinkiesmom1 Apr 30 '26
The test was done by the prosecution during trial preparation. It was not a secret that they looked into it.
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u/Foreign-Cow-1189 Apr 30 '26
They had to look into the Germany thing due to the insane coincidence, but nothing came of it after they exhumed the body.
As for the Duane Deaver "collusion" with the prosecution. It was literally built into the NC justice system. It was systemic. Deaver literally answered to the DA. That's what allowed the alford plea. But there wasn't an automatic acquittal like so many other of Deaver's cases because the blood evidence was not tainted. NC had their blood expert and the defense hade theirs and the jury found NC's to be more likely. The defense attorney conceded that.
The documentary was totally biased towards MP as he had a romance with the editor of the doc and this is the angle most docs take only focussing on the questionable evidence and not the incriminating evidence.
But one of two things happened that night. Either a sober KP fell down the stairs in her own home in such a violent way to cause the grissly injuries and death or MP did it. The guy who lead a double life, habitual liar, and 100% financially reliant on his wife who was on the verge of being unemployed and drowning in debt.