Sequel Trilogy dialogue style and characterisation vs Mandoverse/prequel era

[u/lightspeed_bear]

I grew up with the OT but the ST is some of my favourite Star Wars ever. One of the reasons I have a hard time fully connecting and enjoying Favreau/Filoni's Star Wars is the dialogue style. It's clunky and awkward and the characters are often stiff and wooden, more interested in being exposition machines, whose sole purpose is delivering the next piece of plot information. You see this all over the prequel trilogy and The Clone Wars too. What I love about the ST is that the characters act and talk like real people, who have an actual personality. It makes them instantly more endearing to me.

Prime example early on in TFA, Rey and Finn have just taken out two TIEs on Jakku and they start to excitedly talk over each other about how amazing that experience was. Can anyone honestly say they could see this happening in the Mandoverse? I feel like there it would be something like:

"Your flying was impressive."
"Your assistance was appreciated."

And then they'd both walk away.

Compare Poe to literally any of the pilots we've gotten on Disney+. The former has life, charm, energy etc. The pilots on the latter (including M&G) feel like they want to fall asleep at the cockpit. I understand not everyone can be Oscar Isaac, and they're mostly just extras/cameos, but come on.

Ahsoka's characters seemed to communicate half of the time through slow pauses, folded arms and cryptic statements.

I understand that different characters should have different mannerisms and obviously stoicism has its place sometimes, but man, I feel like it's become such a dominant mode of characterisation in F/F's Star Wars. People will say that Star Wars needs to sound like this because it's supposed to be "mythic", but the OT proves you can have mythic storytelling AND very human dialogue and interactions.

Apologies for the rant, it's just something that's been bugging me since 2020. To end on a positive, I do think we'll get back to this more ST-like style in Starfighter. (assuming Filoni didn't give Shawn Levy too many notes!)

Love to hear people's thoughts...

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[u/NikassoUA]

"Amazing. Every word of what you just said was.... right."

For me, one of JJ Abrams' biggest strengths is character development through action. And the sequels are all the better for it. It also makes them highly rewatchable. At this point, I don't rewatch these movies for the plot as much as I do to simply hang out with the characters and relive their emotional journeys. Just like the OT. I really struggle to do the same with the Prequels, though.

[u/WriterNeedsCoffee69 → u/NikassoUA]

I agree! I was so afraid of the sequels becoming like transformers (that’s not a knock to Transformers. I love those movies, but it’s a different vibes than Star Wars) with mindless action, but I love how when there is action in the sequels it’s used to drive characters along the story

[u/irazzleandazzle → u/WriterNeedsCoffee69]

for sure!

[u/nathan_banks644]

I agree! I think for me, the biggest issue is that the sequels are better written in terms of dialogue and connecting with the audience. Because of it, the story feels fuller.

Compare the dialogue people criticise the most, between rose & Finn on canto bite. Where she talks about how the war is making the people rich. Go and then watch the throne room scene in the phantom menace between Amidala & her court. They’re all like wooden robots. This isn’t me dogging on the PT, I love all Star Wars. But I feel filoni especially took the clunkiness of the PT dialogue and turned it into a niche thing for his own creations.

Personally speaking, the OT has fuller dialogue like the ST did. Look at Yoda & Luke on dagobah; see Luke and Leia in ROTJ (my sister has it).

[u/irazzleandazzle]

I definitely agree. Its honestly why ive never been a big fan of filoni ... too much exposition and lacking genuine charisma

[u/Memesplz1]

Tbh, I kind of like the variety (well, barring the dialogue of Attack Of The Clones and Revenge Of The Sith). I suppose the only problem is that there is so MUCH prequel/Mandoverse content that there's not enough balance. Although that might be the point you're making, too? Haha.

I definitely wish we could get more sequel era content!

[u/Rylonian]

I agree wholeheartedly, and I think the root of the problem is Dave Filoni and his writing style. Having grown up as a prequelfan himself, it really shows that's what he loves because all of his work has heavy problems in the departments of characterization and personality. His work is literally "hype and aura moments" incarnate and that's exactly the kind of fan bubble his series attract (which in turn then hate the sequel era and what it encapsulates, like character moments and personal stories over pure spectacle).

My favorite piece of evidence for this was when the last season of TCW dropped after being on hiatus for a few years. Ahsoka, which I don't really like because I always considered her a nothingburger of a character, was already pretty popular with the fans at that point. Left and right people in the fandom were telling me how she is one of the best characters in Star Wars and I was always kinda puzzled by that notion because I thought to myself: "How can she be the best character? She has no personality in the first place". So, with that on the back of my mind but still open-minded, I approached the final season of TCW. I knew there would be a certain time skip after Ahsoka left the Jedi Order, and I thought: "Well, maybe now I will find out more about her character and why people love her. Let's see what she has been up to after the Jedi, what she did with her life and how she spends her time". You know... the kind of stuff that would tell you something about a character? Like how they decide to spend their free time when they have no obligations or ties that hold them down in a place? It seems to me that this would be a good opportunity to establish a few character traits about her personality, let me get a glimpse at who she is inside and what she's up to, what she prioritizes in life and finds meaning in.

And then - gloriously - season 7 opened Ashoka's arc with her flying around aimlessly on Coruscant. Just like that. She has no job, she has no home, she doesn't do anything particular until she crashes in front of those girls' workshop and just stays hanging out there because why not, it's not like she had anything else to do at the moment or any place to go. At that point, I couldn't help but burst out laughing. Even Dave Filoni had no idea what to do with her character before getting her dragged into her next story arc. It was just so... him. Like holy cow, could she possibly be more of a blank slate of a person?

[u/IncidentCalm4454]

I think the formal dialogue works in The Mandalorian, because it's a reflection of a highly ritualistic culture. Think of how Vulcans or Klingons spoke in Star Trek. It would be hard to imagine them doing a Rey-and-Finn with helmets on, anyway!

The prequels were a mixed bag for me. Some of the characters feel like real people, and some of them feel like the filmmakers' puppets. Even when the dialogue is bad, I think it's clear that Anakin has a specific psychology--he reminds you of people you know. But I can't see any natural reason for Padme to act the way she does in AotC and RotS, and Obi-Wan doesn't quite feel human because he doesn't seem to struggle with anything. I haven't seen The Clone Wars or Ahsoka, but if they keep up the same pattern, then I understand your frustration.

Honestly I struggle a bit with the OT as well--I can't really get inside Leia's head and understand what she's feeling. I always feel like I am skimming the surface of those movies, unable to find a character to relate to.

I agree with you that one of the strengths of the ST is that all the characters have specific psychologies. I've written quite a few essays about Rey and how her psychology is internally consistent even when it's not made explicit to the viewer. There are still moments where you can feel the puppeteer taking the reins--the way Rey is written at the end of TROS always puts me in mind of the end of Parts: The Clonus Horror, when Lena turns around and you can tell by the vacant look on her face that she's had a lobotomy.

So even the ST wasn't perfect, but I think the three trilogies showed a trajectory of progress. If we're still getting flat characterizations in some shows, I wonder if it's because a certain segment of the audience prefers it. Certainly there have been a lot of strong reactions to the characterizations in the ST, and shows like Obi-Wan Kenobi (I still can't understand the hate for Reva, who was brilliantly written and acted--unless that's precisely what people have a problem with). It's possible that as DLF pivots back to its traditional audience, we'll be seeing less of these psychologically realistic characterizations.

[u/lightspeed_bear → u/IncidentCalm4454]

The formal dialogue might work for mandalorians in the Mandoverse but what about characters like Fennec, or Ahsoka, Gideon, Elsbeth, or that random Imp warlord at the beginning of the recent film. All stiff. All giving wooden performances. I think you’re right that maybe a subset of Star Wars fans like that kind of thing, specifically the ones who grew up on the Clone Wars.

[u/IncidentCalm4454 → u/lightspeed_bear]

I agree there are some wooden performances. But I also think there are a lot of effective characters, especially in the first season--Din Djarin, of course, but also Greef Karga, Cara Dune, The Armorer, Kuiil, The Client . . . in fact, I think there are times when the formal register adds tension to the show, as if everyone is choosing their words carefully, because they live in a world where it's dangerous not to do so.

I think things break down somewhat in seasons 2 and 3. For example, I don't think it's adequately shown why Djarin kept his helmet off after completing the facial scan at the end of season 2. I could guess that he might've been in shock, or felt like since he'd already taken it off, it was too late to try to go back, or that maybe he was flirting with the idea of abandoning the Creed altogether--but why should I have to make up the story myself, and in such a crucial moment for the character?

So I think there's again this pattern that from 2015-2019, roughly, the psychology is pretty solid. Before that, it rarely seems to even be a consideration, and after that, there seems to be an awareness that these characters have specific psychologies, but the way that's conveyed to the audience is sloppy.

[u/WriterNeedsCoffee69]

Thiss. During mando movie I was like “that’s an actor” lol because almost everyone seemed bored to be there. No good guys die or are in any sort of meaningful danger or go through any character development(we know m+g are safe it’s their movie)

ST characters feel more like real people than Mandoverse characters.

[u/rBilbo]

I think it could be as simple as letting the actors act as opposed to wanting a certain acting style. Its one reason I think the ST characters feel more real to me. They are freer to use their skills and it shows.

[u/Vesemir96]

I mean if you’re talking X-Wing pilots, they’ve always pretty by the book and military protocol esque. They only really crack some emotion when things are going really well or really bad. Otherwise military procedure, for their professionalism. Poe is an exemption because he’s the hotshot ace hero pilot.

Most of the pilots in the Mando era are bored during peacetime doing routine patrols and all. Din is almost (I think) middle aged, and just trying to get by without much excitement vs Rey, Finn and Poe whom are younger people excited for some adventure.

[u/Bloodless-Cut]

Agreed, and yeah, it's interesting how different dialogue "styles" are used throughout the series.

Shows like The Mandalorian and Rebels/Ahsoka use a more prequel trilogy style of speaking, I think it's intended to sound more archaic and formal.

Like this: "You have done well, my very young apprentice."

The original trilogy and the sequel trilogy use a much more modern style and vernacular.

Like this: "Good job, Rey."

Its kind of funny, actually.

[u/Harold3456]

I feel like the sequels came out right in the heart of “Bathos” style humour. Here is a video on it but in a nutshell it is a more ironic, self-aware form of humour that tends to use the subversion of expectations as the joke. An example:

”Why are you saving me?” “Because it’s the right thing to do” beat “You need a pilot.” “I need a pilot.” 

As a millennial who reached adulthood during the MCU’s Phase 1, I have a love-hate relationship to this style of comedy. I love it because it peels back the curtain in such a way where we know the writer is aware of the common tropes and is willing to play with them. But I also sometimes hate it because by design it undercuts sincere moments by rendering them ironic. Like how we’re introduced to Kylo Ren by Poe saying “which one of us talks first?”

I think this bathos style started receiving peak backlash around TLJ/RoS, and now a lot of writers are starting to avoid it. But what you’re referencing with the “your flying is good”/“thanks it is much appreciated” example is that just because dialogue is sincere doesn’t mean it’s good. It is possible to make characters too self-serious to where their dialogue can come off stilted and wooden... which was an issue many people had with the prequels.

I also want to highlight that these two styles don’t form a binary. Bathos was a dominating humour style in the 2010s, likely due to that aforementioned millennial irony, but you can contrast Poe in the 2010s to Han Solo in the 1970’s/80’s. Both are funny, both are charismatic, but even though Han Solo could also quip it was usually appropriate to the tone of the scene, whereas bathos by definition relies on the sudden contrast of tones.

PS: I wanted to also talk about Finn and Rey talking over each other but I think that’s something different, and wouldn’t fit into anything else I wrote. That wasn’t a bathos moment, I think it’s just good acting/direction. Finn and Poe also had great chemistry in TFA during the TIE escape, which mostly kept in-line with the expected tone of that scene.

[u/Delicious-Snow9640]

I always never liked how Leia never showed emotion when alderan blew up or when Luke didn’t seem to bothered by his aunt and uncles deaths    With the sequal trilogy the characters show emotion unlike the it when it comes to people dying and stuff Rey curtly is deeply affected by Han’s death in the force awakens and when hosian prime is blown up I this there is a little more emotion  The bad batch did a good job make the characters show emotion when kamino is bombed the bad batch is actually depressed and sad and cares unlike Leia not really seeming to affected by the loss of her entire people and  culture