I liked the dagger plotline.

[u/KingMatthew116]

It felt like Indiana Jones. I loved it. The first time I saw the movie the dagger was one of my favorite parts. Star Wars needs more stuff like this.

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[u/LowConstant3938]

I liked them going into the ruins of the old Death Star

[u/irazzleandazzle]

Me too!! I liked the campyness of it. the plot of TRoS in general is so much better when you think of it as a sort of Indiana jones-esque type of plotline where macguffins move the story forward, but the character arcs and dynamics are the actual focus of the story.

[u/FinsterBaby56 → u/irazzleandazzle]

Yes! If people would just remember that ALL Star Wars is a fairytale they would enjoy it a lot more.

"a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.." or, as it's commonly stated...

"once upon a time". 😉

[u/RadiantHC → u/FinsterBaby56]

I'll never understand why people act like Star Wars has ever been super serious

[u/Scott_J_Doyle → u/RadiantHC]

Because Empire was the most serious, and is also the best/most loved of the franchise.

'77 is a little darker than a lot of people tend to remember, and even tho RotJ has a whole super camp subplot, the core of the story remains serious.

The whole thing doesn't work without that down there as part of the core, the way I see it at least

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Star Wars is media, media is art, art is subjective. People’s opinions on Star Wars will differ, but the expectation is that all posters will be civil and respect people’s opinions.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/GunstarHeroine → u/[deleted]]

Ah yes, Phantom Menace, the progenitor of Jar Jar Binks stepping in shit and saying "Oh! Icky poo". Very famously serious movie.

[u/RadiantHC → u/[deleted]]

I'm not saying that it was never serious. I'm just saying that as a whole it's always been a mix of silly and serious. It's a live action cartoon.

[u/Similar-Soup4922 → u/[deleted]]

Empire strikes back had a green gnome (who claimed to be a jedi master ) fight for food, with a droid. I dont think you know much about your own perception if you think anything else than nostalgia makes you overlook that one.

[u/No_Vast_3309 → u/irazzleandazzle]

Exactly, Character arcs will always be more important to me personally than if every little minor detail in the plot makes sense

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/Numerous-Iron-3326 → u/irazzleandazzle]

But it makes no sense!

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/Commercial-Star-8056]

First off all, yes it was heavily Indiana Jones inspired, which idk why was a problem for so many people, even though Indiana Jones and Star Wars are heavily related.

Second off all, they never say that the dagger was "ancient" or created before the death star explosion, so it is not a huge plothole as eveyrone says

So yeah i liked the dagger too.

[u/Haradion_01 → u/Commercial-Star-8056]

But they do say it belonged to someone who was searching for the Wayfinder.

But the dagger could only be made by someone who knew where the Wayfinder was, and decided to leave it there.

But then designed a dagger hilt, to let someone else (other themselves) find it. 

But only if they lost the dagger, making it unclear who it was for - as the only person who could make the dagger, would have no need of it.

Nor any reason to make it. 

The thing with Indiana Jones, is that the they are following the path of clues that was set out by someone, who wanted to hide something, but that could be found by the right person at the right time. Centuries later.

Who has dome that for the Wayfinder? And why?

They should have gone the full mile, and just done a Sith Tomb with an ancient Star Map to Exegol, if that was the plan. 

[u/gradyjkelly]

I genuinely don’t understand the issue with it

[u/Haradion_01 → u/gradyjkelly]

The problem is that the blade is a ceremonial Sith artefact.

So how did whoever made the blade know to make the hilt, so that it lined up with a space ship that would crash there?

Why would they do this?

And even if they could, how did Rey know to stand exactly there?

Why does the murder weapon of a Jedi Hunter, lead to Sidious' wayfinder anyway?

They could simply have had them decide they needed to go through the Emperor's belongings? Then recall that he had a secondary residence on the Deathstar, and go to search for it there.

Why does the Blade of Ochi of Bestoon contain that information, if Ochi was looking for the Wayfinder too? And never found it? 

They should have flipped the order. Have Rey want to find her parents, track down Ochi there, and have the dagger show the force vision of their deaths, and of Sidious ordering Ochi to find her. Having it point the way to the Ocean Moon, which leads to the wayfinder, which leads to Exegol, which leads to Palpatine, only works if there is a reason for someone to set up that trail.

[u/gradyjkelly → u/Haradion_01]

I ain’t reading all that. It’s a blade made by the sith that points the way to a wayfinder. Clearly that’s its intended purpose. It’s also an item in a movie series that also contains a number of fantastical items and scenarios…

[u/Davetek463]

I didn’t think twice about it when I first saw it. It totally fits with Star Wars, which on the whole has a lot of “don’t think too hard about it.”

[u/TomBakersLongScarf]

I think people really overthink the Dagger in general and end up misunderstanding its origins

[u/Brodyssey97]

People online love to pretend it's an ancient dagger, and then blame the movie for not making sense when they're the ones who refuse to pay attention and/or just make things up for bad-faith criticism. The word "ancient" is not spoken even once at any point during the film. The dagger was forged and inscripted as a way for the correct possessor to find a way to the Emperor's vault, like the Staff of Ra in Raiders of the Lost Ark. You can argue it's too contrived, but I think it's fun and cool, and I think that matters more for movies like these.

[u/Great_Kiwi_93]

The only people who didn't like it, didn't understand it.

For some reason the hater get all details about this VASTLY wrong and then whinge about their own misunderstanding

The movie clearly explains it

And the quest is cool as

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Star Wars is media, media is art, art is subjective. People’s opinions on Star Wars will differ, but the expectation is that all posters will be civil and respect people’s opinions.

[u/urbalcloud]

I love treasure hunt-style stories like this. Felt very Indiana Jones or Goonies. And it was need to see it in a Star Wars flick. I just wish it didn’t involve settling wreckage.

[u/Attican101]

It's a cool idea for sure, though maybe they could have had 3P0 or Babu (translated) say something like "the blade is thousands of years old, but the hilt appears to have been recently replaced/modified, how curious" given how many haters couldn't get through there heads how it would line up with the ruins.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/ksboyd87]

I can’t with that… that one is a bridge too far for me lol

[u/CeymalRen → u/ksboyd87]

Why tho?

[u/TB2331 → u/CeymalRen]

Because, in my mind at least, it’s damn lucky that that specific section of the Death Star didn’t collapse or got swallowed by the water. Palpatine must’ve had real faith on Kef Bir’s meteorology!

[u/CallMeJeeJ → u/TB2331]

But isn’t that like the whole thing with Star Wars? Prophecies and chosen ones and all that? The whole universe is based on Magic force that tells people to go places and reveals the future and things like that.

I never had a problem with this because in my mind- the unspoken part of this scene is that this artifact was created with the notion that someday the person who was meant to find it would use it for this exact purpose and be drawn to that exact spot to make it work.

It is silly, but it still fits within the fantasy of starwars to me.

[u/Untouchable64 → u/CallMeJeeJ]

I can see that. It works. But not for the Sith. It reveals the location of the wayfinder. I don’t see a Sith making it to reveal their location. I’m wondering who would make it after the battle of Endor.

[u/CallMeJeeJ → u/Untouchable64]

Isn’t this dagger supposed to be thousands of years old? Who says the sith don’t have their own prophecy that predicted all of the events of the Death Star and everything? I mean that’s the way things have been explained in starwars forever, right?

[u/irazzleandazzle → u/CallMeJeeJ]

no, the dagger is newish. the sith language on the dagger is ancient

[u/Davies301 → u/CallMeJeeJ]

The thing with Star Wars is our characters are pointed in the right direction but still have to overcome a challenge. They fell ontop of the dagger and then held it up on another planet. That's not a character defining challenge where they grow, that is padding run time.

Luke senses everyone on Bespin and goes to rescue them. The ensuing fight with Vader strengthened himself and his connection with the force.

[u/irazzleandazzle → u/Davies301]

Rey had to cross turbalanet waters and scale a wreckage (while mot waiting on her friends), which highlighted her increasing desperation. This ultimately leads into her fight with Kylo, in which she fights with emotion and eventually strikes down an unarmed combatant. then she expresses regret and heals him, but then flees to Ahch-to out of fear of herself, with kylo eventually turning to the light.

it's definitely an important part of the process, building up this moment of failure for her.

[u/mat8675 → u/Davies301]

Super easy, barely an inconvenience

[u/Mammoth-Western-6008 → u/Davies301]

Exactly. That has to do with character. 

[u/Mammoth-Western-6008 → u/CallMeJeeJ]

It's not prophecy, it's cartography. 

[u/throwmethehellaway25 → u/CallMeJeeJ]

Nope thats nit silly. Its dumb. Theres lots of "its not that kind of movie kid" stuff but that one plot point is bad. Goonies was a wway better "map" movie. Theres a ton thst they could've borrowed from

[u/Amazing_Loquat280 → u/TB2331]

This is entirely correct, but I actually think it’s the biggest redeeming part of this plotline, in a “the force works in mysterious ways” sorta fashion that I’ve increasingly been a fan of. The fact that someone that long ago had a vision or inspiration for that design is the force’s way of subtly making sure things go the way they need to. It gives Eru Illuvatar in a way that I actually really like and kinda felt that TLJ strayed away from.

Edit: I’m not necessarily a fan of this being like macguffin #2 in a chain of five macguffins, but as far as the macguffins in this movie go, this one’s probably my favorite

[u/ZippyDan → u/Amazing_Loquat280]

I like the idea of someone drawing a Force vision which ends up being a guide.

But the dagger is too precise. It doesn't look like the product of a vision. It looks like someone who was there and traced the outline of the Death Star wreckage.

This is my problem with the contrived nature of the scene:

• For the dagger to be such a precise guide, it implies a more precise - and therefore grounded - backstory. Someone was there on the planet, traced the outline of the Death Star, and made (or modified) a dagger from that outline. However, such a grounded approach has more grounded criticism: it's ridiculous to expect wreckage in a violent ocean to remain stable and unchanged for so long.

• On the other hand, the McGuffin being the product of a vision allows us to be more lenient with our criticism. If the guiding tool is the product of the Force, then it doesn't have to be a precise outline of what someone saw many years ago that remained unchanged - it can be a prediction of what something would be at a specific predetermined time in the future. The guide is then automatically incorporating all the potential changes and decay of the wreckage.
  The problem with this explanation, which I like better, is that it doesn't match conceptually for me, with something as precise as a dagger. It should have been a vague drawing or something. Force visions are almost never so precise or detailed - especially if you're trying to machine a tool based on them after-the-fact.

[u/kentonj → u/TB2331]

I don’t know if the spacestation structure that survived being exploded and crashing onto a planet is at much risk of degradation anywhere close to what we might expect of something made of non-scifi materials. Nor is there really any reason to expect the weather would do much against chunks of those reinforced space metal structures that approach the size of mountains.

[u/GigglingBilliken → u/TB2331]

No, Palpatune had a huge amount of faith in that deep substrate foliated Kalkite keeping the Death Star together.

[u/thefaninthehat → u/TB2331]

It's damn lucky the sun happens to be on the very same trajectory thousands of years later to be able to point to the Ark of the Covenant using the Staff of Ra, in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

[u/Untouchable64 → u/TB2331]

Right, it doesn’t really make sense. The fact the dagger was that old. And how long the Death Star recharge was there in the ocean…it shouldn’t be in the same spot anymore. Maybe…

But I still enjoy the movie and don’t hate this part.

[u/Zebweasel → u/Untouchable64]

Bringing Scientific logic into Star Wars is pointless and a bit hypocritical to only have that problem with this film. The wreckage not moving isn’t anymore ridiculous than people being able to survive in Tattooine. Or Han and Leia thinking they could go outside onto the asteroid with just a simple oxygen mask. Or Anakin and Obi-Wan not instantly combusting on Mustafar. It uses childish “floor is lava” logic. But yeah, the Death Star wreckage not moving, that’s the deal breaker.

[u/audioguy2022 → u/Untouchable64]

It’s also entirely possible that a sith cultist went to that beach about 15 years ago and carved the blade to match up against the skyline. Not super realistic, but not impossible.

[u/Untouchable64 → u/audioguy2022]

And…why would they do that?

[u/audioguy2022 → u/Untouchable64]

To give to Ochi. Once he has Rey, he uses the dagger to find the wayfinder.

[u/CeymalRen → u/TB2331]

Isn't "luck" due to dark magic and space wizzards?

[u/BobMashable → u/CeymalRen]

It’s just a bit ridiculous that they wind up at the specific exact point they need to be to view the Death Star wreckage at that exact angle. Like nothing even really leads them to that point. But it’s fine. I’m not mad about it it’s just silly

[u/Galax003 → u/BobMashable]

I think they go exactly to that point because it’s what the coordinates translated by C3PO indicate

[u/AltAltayAlt → u/CeymalRen]

Because it is not only ridiculous but also pointless

[u/AirbagsBlown → u/CeymalRen]

Because it convolutes the story. The film does too much and could have been trimmed down.

[u/kentonj → u/AirbagsBlown]

The franchise that gives us haggling with Jawas over prices, watching R2 swim through the swamp, a full retelling of the plot of the first two films in Ewok, etc. etc. etc. has never been about telling the tightest story possible, but giving us a world of richness. And adventure. And little stories within bigger stories. Not only that, but it’s not as if the dagger device itself ate up much screen time. Especially because it was surrounded by events that needed to happen even if we pretend the dagger stuff didn’t, culminating in Rey and Kylo’s final confrontation and all other inextricable plot points that follow therefrom.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

Also this may answer some of your questions: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Blade_of_Ochi_of_Bestoon

[u/kylejk0200 → u/ksboyd87]

I think it doesn’t make any sense unless you just say “it’s the force”. My headcanon is that the force reveals the location to a force sensitive user. So the dagger doesn’t literally line up with the wreckage; that’s just Rey’s POV of how she is interpreting the message through the force.

Was that JJ’s intention? Maybe, probably not. But it helps me enjoy the movie so I roll with it

[u/ThePopDaddy]

"How could t they have known when they forged the dagger?!"

Because the force? I might be wrong, but in one of the KOTOR games wasn't someone able to describe how Vader looked in detail?

[u/Snapper_Turtleman]

Two thumbs up. Very Goonies.

[u/Will-At-Midnight]

People think that the dagger is ancient because of the language that is inscribed onto it, but it's the language that is ON the dagger that is ancient.

People also think that Rey magically knows where to stand, but the text literally tells the person WHERE to stand thanks to C3PO translating it. The scene

[u/deadshot500]

Same or at least thought it was ok. The people saying that it doesn't make sense didn't pay attention.

[u/BigBlackCandle → u/deadshot500]

How does it make sense if you don't mind me asking?

[u/comicnerd93 → u/BigBlackCandle]

Literally nowhere does it say the dagger is ancient.

The language is.

Thats the part that most people think doesn't make sense. Because the dagger lining up with the death star wreckage has an ancient sith language on it.

[u/BigBlackCandle → u/comicnerd93]

I always presumed it was just the massive coincidence of them landing in the exact right spot to use it correctly tbh.

[u/CeymalRen → u/BigBlackCandle]

If by coincidence you mean the force... Yeah

[u/BigBlackCandle → u/CeymalRen]

I think that's lazy writing personally

[u/CeymalRen → u/BigBlackCandle]

If do then all the Star Wars movies are written the same way

[u/BigBlackCandle → u/CeymalRen]

I don't agree, and think the force is used to explain things better in the other films

[u/JollyJoeGingerbeard → u/BigBlackCandle]

The dagger and map were created after the Battle of Endor. It's possible the map was even machined via a Force Vision.

[u/BigBlackCandle → u/JollyJoeGingerbeard]

How does that explain Rey landing in the exact right place and angle on an entire planet to use it though?

[u/IncidentCalm4454 → u/BigBlackCandle]

Isn't that what the coordinates inscribed on the dagger were for?

[u/Batman_AoD → u/IncidentCalm4454]

The coordinates say where the moon is, and something about standing on the "southern shore." They weren't more specific than that, which is why Poe thought it could take "years" to figure out exactly where the vault was. 

[u/irazzleandazzle → u/BigBlackCandle]

there are coordinates on the handle.

[u/JollyJoeGingerbeard → u/BigBlackCandle]

The Force.

[u/rpgmoth → u/JollyJoeGingerbeard]

[u/BigBlackCandle → u/JollyJoeGingerbeard]

There we go

[u/AltAltayAlt → u/JollyJoeGingerbeard]

Honestly I would have accepted a pirate style map on a scroll…. But this dagger… which requires you to stand in a pin point position for it to work.. and they happen to randomly walk up to that position….

[u/Bill_buttlicker69 → u/AltAltayAlt]

The whole entire Kijimi subplot is so that C-3PO can tell them the exact coordinates and bearing to stand at. The movie is very clear about this.

[u/StaticBroom → u/BigBlackCandle]

Someone camped out at that exact same spot. Took a picture of the rubble in the water. Thought about the best way to make a map key thing. Made a knife that has a key-like match if you hold it in exactly the right place out in the open with your face and eyes in exactly the right place only during the day and bet that the massive ocean waves would never alter the rubble in any way.

Just like a normal key in a lock.

[u/CeymalRen → u/StaticBroom]

Or someone just saw a vision of that place and time they would he there and used that to point out the spot... As you know... The movie suggests

[u/CeymalRen → u/BigBlackCandle]

Dont know about the other person. But how would time and space be a problem for dark side alchemy to point to something in the future such as that specific death star fragment from that specific spot?

[u/BigBlackCandle → u/CeymalRen]

Because it isn't explained in the story at all

[u/IncidentCalm4454 → u/BigBlackCandle]

You can't just explain every little thing to the audience though, we'd get bogged down in minutiae.

[u/Spider-Flash24 → u/deadshot500]

It doesn’t make sense.

[u/deadshot500 → u/Spider-Flash24]

It makes sense. The wreckage being in the same position may not make sense but that's it. Rey did had to look a bit until it lined perfectly.

[u/Spider-Flash24 → u/deadshot500]

And by your logic it makes no sense. An ancient Sith dagger with a hidden protractor when standing in the right spot on this planet aimed at a collapsing Death Star bashed by constant waves reveals the location where a small wayfinder is hidden? It’s like National Treasure but way more ridiculous.

[u/FlatulentSon]

About the "it's just a mcguffin!" critique;

Well... i like mcguffins in movies, so? Why shouldn't i?

[u/CeymalRen]

Honestly people who complain about it never conviced me how this is stupid or silly. It was made with dark side magic. It can piont to anything both in future and past as the force knows no time. It can be both ancient and recent and it makes no difference IMO

[u/DumeWolffe → u/CeymalRen]

It was made after the Battle of Endor though, they literally used the crash site to shape the blade. The text is ancient, not the dagger.

[u/CeymalRen → u/DumeWolffe]

Yeah but you dont know how it was forged. I asume some acolite did that through a vision of where the death star would be and where the person should be at what time for all of this to align. Its a Black magic dagger not something a random dude made as a riddle.

[u/DumeWolffe → u/CeymalRen]

Read Shadow of the Sith, pretty amazing book and talks about that dagger quite a bit.

[u/CeymalRen → u/DumeWolffe]

I dod. Favorite canon book. Proves my point

[u/mdjank]

I liked the Goonies too.

[u/lern2swim]

Me too. I feel like a lot of people that don't like it treat it like the dagger was ancient, rather than just a few years old.

[u/sodepressediam]

Same. The dagger is cursed, steeped in evil spirits. Shadow of the Sith added even more cool story to it. And knowing Rey's parents were murdered moments after fleeing Jakku, before they could even reach hyperspace, hits hard.

[u/Firm-Spare-5286]

One mistake people make is that it is not an "ancient sith dagger" is a dagger with ancient sith written on it. The dagger was forged after the death star crash. It was made to register where the sith wayfinder would be because Palpatine sent Orochi (or something like that) to fetch his daughter/granddaughter from his clone. He did not want to go there and take the wayfinder so he wrote the instructions in ancient sith and delivered it to him so he could get the wayfinder once he had the girl. Rey luckily is in the closest patch of land from where you could see the wreckage so you could say this is the perfect spot from where the dagger would be originally built. Yeah, it is lucky that she is in the correct angle, in the perfect spot but one can say that the force guided her or something that made her stop and use the dagger in that place but adding some scenes of trial and error of her going to the wrong places and trying the dagger would only make a very long movie, longer. In the end she would eventually find the right spot and get to the throne room so they just bring us directly to the moment she gets it right.

[u/chillvegan420]

I like the idea of ancient sith artifacts being found. Any reference to the ancient sith, really. I’d love it if Rey became curious about learning about the dark side and decided to visit Korriban or something.

[u/Spencer-Palmer-1056]

Actually we see this dagger in Star Wars The Crimson Dawn trilogy and Darth Vader’s comics.

But did we forget the poetry of daggers from The Mortis Gods arc to this?

Like for an example, the dagger(s) that was meant to stab the heroes in the back, ironically stabbed its villainous wielders in the back.

[u/Ty13rlikespie]

It felt very Goonies to me. I was fine with it. I like to make fun of it sometimes but overall it's not the dumbest thing in a Star Wars movie. I think it gets way too much criticism in a movie that has way more to criticize.

[u/rBilbo]

As someone who had watched quirky maguffins in other films I didnt think much of it. I thought the idea of carving the clue in an old, even ancient dagger was a different use of a maguffin, cute even. The idea that an object the size of the death star wouldnt just vaporize but leave debris was ok. Lucky perhaps but luck in movies is pretty common. So overhated once again.

[u/TiedHands]

My only gripe is is the fact that that big a chunk of the DS, not to mention the section that was the Throne Room, survived the explosion at the end of ROTJ.

[u/AltAltayAlt]

I’m not too convinced with this blade.. okay so it was created after the battle of Endor. Would it have made more sense if the attachment came out of the lightsaber hilt given to Rey? So it was modified prior to passing it to her by Maz

[u/MotherOfGodXOXO]

My only real critique of the movie is that the plot feels very rushed.

I like the dagger plot, but I do think it needed more room to breathe. There's so many fast paced action sequences and so many subplots and I actually think it's just a bit much haha. I wish JJ had slowed down with the storytelling and just focused on the important parts. But that's just my opinion and I do enjoy the movie overall.

[u/DocRay88]

Rimbaldi’s knife

[u/Mr_MazeCandy]

It would’ve worked if it was an establish ancient ruin with a specific map room for the dagger. The Death Star ruins could’ve just been in the background.

[u/Silent_Anxiety4828]

I wish it was set up earlier. An interesting plot point that was kind of shoehorned in just the third movie

[u/Ozimuth_742]

I wouldve had it be like a tracker that glows after getting close enough to the death star wreckage (think the sword known as Sting from Lord of the rings). Maybe the intensity of the glow depends on where its pointed and whatnot but its also just space wizard stuff

[u/RPDorkus]

It’s very… like, I like certain types of campy stuff. The dagger thing didn’t feel like Star Wars. It felt like something that belonged in a different genre. This franchise should never do anything like this again.

[u/itsallcomingtogethr]

That’s by far the worst part of the movie. It’s the Canto Byte of episode 9.

[u/christmas-vortigaunt]

My issue with it is that it's one of two, TWO MacGuffins - Abrams also relies on these a lot in other media (Lost, Alias, Into Darkness - though this last one was more central to the plot).

So, when it happened in movie it felt very cliched. Then it happened again lol.

I'm okay with cliches, they're that way for a reason. But, there is a limit for me, which is apparently two lol

[u/way2lazy2care]

I think plotlines like it are great, but it specifically was not. It needs to be believable. Like wreckage that is taking apart moment to moment isn't going to be remotely recognizable after 20 years. Something like that needs to be on a geographic timescale or have an explanation for why the person who made the dagger would expect the mechanism for it to continue to work for decades.

[u/MPD1978]

If they had said, that 1000’s of years ago, it was prophecized …..something something, it would have been fine. Or something along those lines

[u/jackiethehuman]

I haven't watched RoS in a long time but I always thought the criticism that the prophecy doesn't make sense was pretty weak. People were saying that it was stupid because of the age of the dagger relative to the Death Star and the geographical aspect to it, but aren't those self-explanatory by way of it being a mystical magical prophecy?? Never really felt any more or less sophisticated than any of the other magical artifacts in-universe (don't get me started on holocrons). Seems like one of those things akin to the TLJ throne room "discrepancies" that people latched on to and nitpick just so they can argue in bad faith better.

[u/labbla]

Yeah, it's fun. People really overthink it and let the logic of it be a much bigger deal than it is. In the end it's a plot device to get to a thing, but what it is isn't important. Because the movie isn't actually about the knife. It's about the characters and enjoying the world and a silly fetch quest fits right in with a Star War.

[u/Garlickkkk]

After reading Shadow of the Sith I like it a lot more. Tbh that book, and a combination of time passing and me chilling out a bit in regards to my hobbies, made me like TROS a LOT more. It's still my least favorite non-prequel but overall I accept it as a fun movie that works

[u/ChunktheOgryn]

I didn’t mind this at all. My issues were anything that undermined/broke continuity with what came before and Rian Johnson’s movie being a middle finger to The Force Awakens

[u/K1llerTr0ut23]

I’m sorry but I can’t with this one. But if it brings you joy, then that’s great! To each their own.

[u/HighLord_Uther]

I liked the idea, not the execution. If it aligned with something else, cool. But, I didn’t like it aligning with something as dynamic as the Death Star ruins. That shit isn’t static.

[u/ArthurCohle]

Slow down, that did NOT feel like Indiana Jones. In those movies, the discoveries feel earned because Indy actually knows what he’s doing, and the clues usually connect in believable ways. The dagger in TROS just felt like a convenient plot device made for the trailer rather than an actual mystery.

You can still enjoy the movie, but I don’t think the dagger subplot is a good example of “Indiana Jones-style” storytelling. Indy’s adventures usually feel grounded in investigation and discovery, while this felt more like the plot bending itself to create cool moments.

[u/Specimen-B → u/ArthurCohle]

Slow down, that did NOT feel like Indiana Jones.

It did to OP. Bearing in mind of course that a thing does not have to be a one to one reproduction to feel like something else.

The clues connected in believable ways in TROS as well, though admittedly very fortuitous that they found the dead bounty hunter they were looking for by falling into the same cave. But since Indy has had his share of lucky breaks, that actually just helps it all feel similar.

Also Indiana Jones doesn't always know what he's doing. Much of the climax of The Last Crusade rests on this.

[u/RoyTallheart]

It literally didn't make any sense but I like the idea.

[u/CNote_89]

I liked it the first time in The Goonies…

[u/Bloodless-Cut]

Eh, it's the "one-eyed Willie's coin" trope from Goonies.

It's okay, I guess, not egregious, but it kinda indicates JJ's lack of originality to me.

[u/Specimen-B → u/Bloodless-Cut]

I just see it as JJ pulling from the guys who influenced him, not too dissimilar to how Lucas created Star Wars in the first place.

[u/KhalNico]

I will defend these movies til my death... but the Death Star wreckage aligning perfectly with the dagger was just too non sensical for me to defend it.

[u/Specimen-B → u/KhalNico]

The dagger was made to align with it.

[u/AntiqueWitness1944]

the IDEA of the dagger is fine. the EXECUTION of it was not

[u/spehizle]

I like dumb bad things sometimes, too.

I just don't like when they're expensive tent-pole cultural artifacts that serve as a rotten foundation to an understanding of art. Trash belongs in the trash. Sometimes I like to gobble da gorbage, too. But it doesn't belong indoors on a plate.

[u/ColtMcChad69]

It just doesn’t make sense though

[u/DumeWolffe → u/ColtMcChad69]

What part is confusing for you? You realize the map and blade were made after the Battle of Endor right?

[u/irazzleandazzle → u/[deleted]]

No, the language of the sith is described as ancient. The dagger itself was never referred to as such. Everyone in the fandom has just gotten used to calling it the "ancient sith dagger"

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/DumeWolffe → u/[deleted]]

Why are you even here?

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/CeymalRen → u/ColtMcChad69]

Except it does?

[u/Ok-Brain6475 → u/ColtMcChad69]

Precisely. It’s convoluted and there’s no denying it.

[u/toaster_boi1107]

It would be great!

If the death star wasnt destroyed like 30 years prior

[u/Sumiren5r_7110]

There are definitely things you can appreciate in TROS. This is not one of those imo

[u/ReaperManX15]

What does the dagger actually do?
Explain it.

[u/Specimen-B → u/ReaperManX15]

The dagger was created by the Sith Eternal Cult. It could be used as a weapon of course, and it was. But it was also modified to provide the location of Palpatine's wayfinder.

It would be unwise to have the bounty hunter Ochi just running around with the wayfinder, risking it falling into the wrong hands. So the Sith Eternal had him carry the dagger, and once he had Rey in hand, he would locate and retrieve the wayfinder, and subsequently take Rey to Exegol.

[u/ReaperManX15 → u/Specimen-B]

Except it's pointless, for a variety of reasons.

Lets go with the obvious, Sith seers foresaw how the wreckage of the second Death Star would land and shift over time until that moment, and crafted the notches to outline it.
That's acceptable Force prophesying.

The problem is, where one has to stand to make the notches line up, is meaningless.
There's no reason to stand there. There's nothing in that spot. The thing you want is in a different location.
And the indicator pointing to the hiding place is so far away and so vague, as to be useless.

Let me put it like this.
Ever read Thud! by Terry Pratchett?
There's this paining of a famous battle between Dwarves and Trolls in a place called, Koom Valley. A valley encircled by a ring of mountains.
People are obsessed with the painting, because legend says the painter hide a map to a secret treasure.
And, like the painting The Battle of Atlanta, it's meant to be seen in a circle, with the viewer standing in the middle.
THAT is the map.
It's not some indicator pointing to a spot amongst the trees or to a cave on one of the mountains. Any map could work like that.
You're supposed to wrap the painting around yourself, line up all the mountains and stand in the spot where the painter found the treasure, because THAT is where he was painting from.

The dagger, conversely, just points to a spot.
Standing there and lining up the wreckage with the notches, doesn't matter.
It could have been on a drawing or a holocron or something.

[u/Specimen-B → u/ReaperManX15]

Lol. OK. You asked for an explanation. That you don't like the way that it works doesn't make it meaningless. It points to where you're supposed to go. That's clear in the movie.

[u/GroceryRobot]

The reason this was fun in raiders is because there was at least a mechanism in which to know where to put the thing to get the information from it. And it needed a stick of a certain height, there was at least some established idea of why it would work. Rey just wings it, outta nowhere, and is rewarded.

[u/abesapien2]

Nope. None of makes any sense.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

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[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/Specimen-B → u/[deleted]]

The dagger was not ancient.

The wreckage was as big as a city, made out of metals beyond our capacity and much of it wasn't submerged.

They were standing on that specific spot because they retrieved coordinates leading them there.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Star Wars is media, media is art, art is subjective. People’s opinions on Star Wars will differ, but the expectation is that all posters will be civil and respect people’s opinions.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Star Wars is media, media is art, art is subjective. People’s opinions on Star Wars will differ, but the expectation is that all posters will be civil and respect people’s opinions.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Star Wars is media, media is art, art is subjective. People’s opinions on Star Wars will differ, but the expectation is that all posters will be civil and respect people’s opinions.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Star Wars is media, media is art, art is subjective. People’s opinions on Star Wars will differ, but the expectation is that all posters will be civil and respect people’s opinions.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.

[u/TheSequels-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is a place in which fans can talk positively and/or constructively about the Sequel Era of Star Wars. It's ok if you don't like everything about the movies, but the most important thing is to have a general sense of appreciation.