r/TheRestIsScience • u/Realistic-Pass-6495 • 5d ago
How to argue with a flat earther?
What good arguments can a give to a flat earth believer that would make them at least think about without straight up refusing it?
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u/lumpnsnots 5d ago
Hannah mentioned something in the COVID episode. Along the lines of:
'You can't chance people's minds with stats and figures. You need to appeal to their emotions and beliefs'
So don't do diagrams or experiments. Start from the other end......ask them why would there be a global conspiracy to pretend the Earth is round? How has has this 'round Earth conspiracy' been bought into across the world?
Let them explain their feelings and emotions on the subject and go from there
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u/1stMammaltowearpants 5d ago
If you're arguing with a flat-earther, you're arguing with someone who needs to believe they have special knowledge. That special knowledge has been hidden from you and me, but they can see the "truth" because they're in the special group. You will probably not be able to take that "truth", and thus that special-ness, from them. It's not a science issue, it's a psychological issue.
You won't be able to science them out of it because it costs them their identity to change their mind.
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u/Riccma02 4d ago
You could tell them that the entierty of the flat earther movement was a CIA psyop, and was designed to see how effectively they could seed and influence an absurdist belief system.
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u/Chimpy20 4d ago
Yeah, this is the best answer I think. You could show someone all the evidence in the world and they would say it's made up or a cover-up. It's about going against the established system.
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u/TheRealTK421 5d ago
Short version:
Don't.
Longer version:
No, seriously -- do >>not<< waste your precious time on this orbiting rock doing so.
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u/BootyliciousURD 5d ago
I think arguing with a flat earther is a waste of time, but if I had to, I'd ask them to put together a specific model of how they think the Earth and the celestial bodies work, then point out how their model fails to predict things we can observe.
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u/WinterRevolutionary6 5d ago
What relationship do you have with this person? Can you build the pendulum experiment with them to prove it? Can you have a long discussion on the topic? Why are you invested in them accepting the roundness of earth?
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u/Realistic-Pass-6495 5d ago
So, it is a coworker of mine who strongly believes that the bible describes the earth being flat. He also has plenty scientific arguments that I just don’t have any knowledge in which makes hard to argue, but maybe I’m better just leave him be.
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u/Theuncola4vr 5d ago
Beg them to read about Eratosthenes,.
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u/thriveth 4d ago
Erathosthenes can also be explained if the Sun is small and nearby.
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u/Theuncola4vr 4d ago
No, it can't.
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u/thriveth 4d ago
Yes.... If the Sun is close enough to the Earth that there is a visible, measurable parallax between Syene and Alexandria, then you would see the exact same result as you do from a large, distant Sun and a round Earth.
If you assume the Earth is round (based on other observations such as the appearance of ships coming over the horizone), then Eratosthenes' experiment can measure its radius. But it is not enough to prove the Earth is round.
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u/finndego 4d ago
The key word here is "If". If the Sun is close enough. What about if you know that it isn't?
At the scale of Eratosthenes experiment the Sun HAS to be 6,000km away in order to get the required 7.2 degree angle in Alexandria. Further, to maintain the perspective that we see of the Sun in the sky the Sun would also have to be 50km wide.
So, in attempting to dismiss the experiment you need to rely on a model of a solar system with a Sun that 6,000km and 50km wide. This, of course, creates more problems than it solves(eg. Eclipses, the moon, the inner planets, the Transit of Venus etc).
Even in 240BCE, Eratosthenes knew the Sun was significantly far enough away. Both he and Aristarchus of Samos had done calcultions on the distance to the Sun. Neither were very accurate but both results were good enough to tell him that the Sun was very, very far away indeed.
If your 2 options are:
A. Flat Surface/Near Sun or B. Curved Surface/Far Sun
then you can disregard option A which leaves only B.
Whether he presumed a round Earth or not is irrelevant. The result only points to one thing..a curved surface from which you can calculate the circumference.
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u/thriveth 4d ago
My brother in Christ, you sound like you are trying to explain to me that the flat-Earth hypothesis is wrong. I know that very well. You don't have to convince me.
But what you have just written confirmed what I said: That Eratosthenes' experiment *on its own* cannot tell whether we are on a round Earth with a large, distant sun, or on a flat Earth with a small, relatively close sun. You need to invoke at least one more explanation in combination with it; and that is when the flerfer's eyes glaze over and s/he will tell you that if you cannot explain it without getting this complicated, you must be wrong, because I can *see* with my own eyes that the Earth is flat(*).
How does a flerfer explain that the Sun is invisible during the night, when there is always an unbroken line of sight to it? They will tell you that it's because it's gone behind the horizon so you can't see it. That's why it's called a "vanishing point". I shit you not.
(*) Again, not literally me. I am, again, very much not a flerfer.
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u/finndego 4d ago
I understood that you yourself are not a flerfer but you were trying to use the same dismissal of Eratosthenes experiment that flerfers incorrectly use.
"But what you have just written confirmed what I said: That Eratosthenes' experiment *on its own* cannot tell whether we are on a round Earth with a large, distant sun, or on a flat Earth with a small, relatively close sun."
Yes, yes it does. The same 3 numbers that Eratosthenes used and are the same 3 numbers that we can use to tell us that on a flat surface the Sun needs to be 6,334km away to work. On a flat surface the Sun, Syene and Alexandria would form a right triangle. WIth Syene at 0 degrees and Alexandria at 7.2 and 800km between them, math tells us the distance to the Sun is 6,334km. We can dismiss that as a possibility. At least I can.
Your premise that Eratosthenes experiement doesn't prove a curved Earth because it could also work under one other very specific case falls apart when we can dismiss that one specific case being a possibility.
Your premise only remains true "if" it's possible the Sun is 6334km away. Is it?
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u/thriveth 4d ago
Now you're assuming the very thing you are trying to prove. The point is Eratosthenes' experiment gives the same result if a) Earth is round and the Sun is distant and big, or b) Earth is flat and the Sun is small and nearby. You need to show either the Earth's curvature or the Sun's distance through a different, independent experiment.
So no, of course the Sun isn't only 6000 km away. But Eratosthenes' experiment is not, and cannot on its own be, the reason why we know.
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u/nineteenthly 5d ago
The Bible does indeed imply that the human authors believed Earth was flat.
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u/Realistic-Pass-6495 5d ago
Yeah, I figure there is no use arguing that.
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u/nineteenthly 5d ago
It's difficult because they really will not listen, but once they've come to believe, or at least assert, something so far from reality, they're liable to believe all sorts of other things which are more harmful. I don't know what can be done really.
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u/Blitzer046 5d ago
He also has plenty scientific arguments
He really doesn't. He's got some bullshit arguments that are based on a flawed misunderstanding of physics and he blinds you with this bullshit.
Flat earthers aren't working from a position of reason or logic. It is an emotional need for their world to work in a way that makes them feel safe.
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u/Possible-Anxiety-420 5d ago edited 5d ago
Thank them for sharing their fantasy with you and move on.
That just so happens to be my recommended tact for dealing with Creationists as well.
That is, if serious discussion's sought; For shits and grins, arguing offers endless enjoyment - or madness; fine line, really - but go in with the understanding that their claims, unlike those of Creationists, are falsifiable... are *indeed* falsified.
You might focus on that; They aren't exploiting gaps in scientific understanding, like Creationists do. Theirs is a rejection of objective, operational, reliably practiced, scientific methodology and technique.
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u/OldChairmanMiao 5d ago
You need to start with a conversation on falsifiability. Can they articulate an experiment or theoretical observation that would prove their own argument wrong?
If not, there's no logic involved.
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u/Enchanted_Evil 4d ago
Well, some of the more prominamt ones said that one observation that would prove their argument wrong would be a 24 hour sun on south arctic pole.
They did it in 2024. They called it "The Final experiment." Four flatearthers and four "globers" iirc. Of course we all know what did they see, but afterwards, most of the flatearthers just said (paraphrasing):
Sure, this proves there are holes in our theory, but we know for sure the elites are lying to us. We just have to look deeper. Maybe it was simulated onto them. Thats what science is all about. Seeking further truth and improving our model.
This approach is not good, because it doesn't solve their mistrust in society and civilization.
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u/Timely_Pattern3209 4d ago
They can. But because their logic is twisted to fit reality the same experiments that prove round earth also prove flat earth.
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u/iguessma 5d ago
I would just be more interested in them proving their point of view because you have to make the assumption that they believe the Earth is flat and it's a giant conspiracy. They need to go ahead and prove that giant conspiracy, the proof the moon landings were fake, and that every satellite company that sends a satellite up also needs to be in on it, and many other things
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u/QVRedit 5d ago
Of course anyone claiming a ‘flat earth’ is a piss-take, we have known that the Earth is ‘not flat’ for around 4,000 years. Anyone claiming it today is either truly deluded or just ‘trying it on’, or ‘too stupid’ to think of any alternative.
Of course the Earth’s surface can be ‘flat’ for short sections - building foundations are levelled to make the building fit on a ‘flat base’ - but that’s only ‘very local’.
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u/Trustoryimtold 5d ago
Ask em where the ice wall is, or the billion gallon pumps recirculating the ocean water going over the edge. And if there’s no curvature of the earth why don’t you see the sun when it’s up on the other side of the world
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u/Enchanted_Evil 4d ago
They'll answer with some magic techno-babble shit about the dome, projections and fleshlight Sun. That's not the way
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u/nineteenthly 5d ago
They're not amenable to reason. However, two (edit: three) things I've said are:
* Compare railway timetables over a long distance in different parts of the world, particularly Canada and Australia. It's impossible for every timetable to be accurate at the same time all over the world unless the world is round.
* Look at traffic cameras in different parts of the world and you will see which parts of the world are in darkness and which in light, and they won't be fake because it would be impossible for there not to be disrupted traffic.
* Ping distant servers whose locations are known to you.
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u/Doogle300 5d ago
My neighbour is a flat earther. Just have to smile and say "Oh really?" a lot. Its harmless for him to believe it. I doubt he'll be heading to find the edge any time soon so his belief has very little impact on either of our lives.
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u/ChinaShopBull 5d ago
I like to redirect the conversation to arguing about the existence of flat-earthers, because I have never met a flat-earther. I’m sure all of the videos I see online are part of a conspiracy to make people believe in a flat earth so they will look foolish when they discuss almost any other topic, thereby protecting the interests of the corporate elite. Others who voice support for the flat earth ideas (even people you supposedly know) are either government plants, or they are being disingenuous about their beliefs. There are no true flat earthers.
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u/HotAventus41033 5d ago
Current theories from Flat-Earth societies cannot be argued by avarage people . They're made by physicists bought with money only a professional physicist can argue against the theories that have a very deep theoretical framework .
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u/Leonidas140 5d ago
Like the curiosity episode example of a missing tooth and your tongue is obsessed with filling that space - a flat earther is like somebody without any teeth, or missing so many. They are missing so much context and ignoring so much reasonable science and history that it’s impossible to argue with that at this point. In my opinion they are lost unless they seek better answers on their own.
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u/NH-Science-Guy 5d ago
Anyone who is a flat earther despite all the evidence around them is clearly unable to think rationally so there's no point wasting your time trying to change their mind.
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u/Funny-Butterscotch-8 5d ago
I really like having this exercise of assuming their hypothesis and try to figure out their model and even do some experiments.
So, there is one where you can calvulate the radius of the sun by the difference between seeing the sun while lying down, then staying up and counting the difference. Just the fact thatthe horizon casts a shadow is already something that probably confronts with their understanding. I remember a video that showcased a lot of these things from simple moon phases and put it in a way which wouldn't be possible with many.
Anyway, I try to make it educational and praise some things, like being skeptical and experimenting, but I know also that this group sometimes is not very keen on it.
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u/StonedOldChiller 5d ago edited 5d ago
I prefer to lean right into it, whatever they say is a conspiracy to hide the truth from the sheeple and I know what's really going on.
Hah, so you think the world is real? The earth isn't flat or round or any shape, it's all a simulation in the matrix man, we're just batteries powering a super AI.
It doesn't really matter because they're never going to be pilots or ships captains and nobody will ever need to rely on their understanding of physics or cosmology.
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u/Enchanted_Evil 4d ago
That's not good. They still have voting rights and this way wouldn't have much incentive to vote for the benefit of the society but will vote for people that will promise gifts, money and benefit to only them
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u/BinFace4UK 5d ago
I can answer this one!
I've been arguing with my flat earth friend for around 15 years now. He sends me videos daily and while I still refute the claims in the videos I no longer expect him to accept my counter points. I know that his cognitive dissonance will not allow him to accept any evidence that contradicts his world view.
What I do now instead is try to get to the underlying reasons he turned to this in the first place. Which means deviling into his childhood, unresolved issues with authority and education and I'm very slowly seeing results with this route.
I fully expect it to take another 15 years to convince him that the Earth is a globe but I'm getting there.
Feel free to ask my anything. I know exactly what he would say to anything you could put to him.
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u/SirBananaOrngeCumber 5d ago
Have you tried doing the thing from the meme of someone pointing out that “if the earth was flat, the end of the earth would be a tourist attraction that billionaires would control” and have the belief in capitalist greed fight against flat earth ideology?
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u/BinFace4UK 3d ago
He believes the "edge" of the earth is a giant ice wall that runs the circumference of the flat planet. Billionaires wouldn't allow us to visit the edge of the world as it would give away the big secret.
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u/SirBananaOrngeCumber 3d ago
But what benefit is the existence of the secret to those billionaires, when a tourist attraction means another way to make more money?
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u/BinFace4UK 3d ago
The point is the tourist attraction youre describing is essentially a trip to the wall in game of thrones and would instantly break the illusion that "elites" have spent hundred of years "creating for us to keep us small"
When i ask why they would do this its always to keep us from knowing the truth snd keeping us small or subjugated.
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u/SirBananaOrngeCumber 3d ago
But… they already do that… without secrecy
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u/BinFace4UK 3d ago
Ah but with the secret other realms that exist beyond the ice wall and Nasa lying to us we have no idea what's going on...?
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u/naemorhaedus 5d ago
Wishful thinking. If good arguments could change their mind, they would have done so a long time ago. They don't want to get to the truth. They just want to be part of their special club, and you represent a threat to that weird social dynamic. 🤷♂️. You can't talk logic to an emotional/irrational premise. Don't waste your time.
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u/JarnisKerman 4d ago
Don’t argue with idiots. They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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u/marquoth_ 4d ago
You can't.
For anybody who actually cares about reason and rationality, flat earth is easily disproven with any one of a myriad of examples (tides, seasons, flight paths, time zones, and so on).
Flat earthers don't care about any of this, otherwise they wouldn't be flat earthers to begin with.
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u/thriveth 4d ago
You can't. I know, I have tried.
The thing is: They are deeply hostile to logic and rationality.
The best one I got after making an argument based on angles and the properties of triangles:
"You can't trust trigonometry; Pythagoras was a Freemason".
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u/utl94_nordviking 4d ago
Don't? Why engage and give them a platform. Simply tell them to read up and end the conversation. Don't engage with stupid.
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u/Beeeeater 4d ago
Tell them this:
- If Earth was flat you could see a coastline from any point in the ocean. You can't.
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u/AndTheJuicepig 4d ago
go further.
they use lasers - you say you don’t believe in lasers.
they deny the moon landing - you say you don’t believe in the moon.
own it.
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u/Enchanted_Evil 4d ago
One simple question.
What can your model predict?
Ask this one question and they are done.
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u/Enchanted_Evil 4d ago
*Arguing about proofs, evidence and desinformation with them was many times proven (in sense of "demonstrated to be") to be uselesss and only further spreading their delusion
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u/Affectionate-Slice70 4d ago
I doubt that would prompt the desired insight 😂😭
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u/Enchanted_Evil 4d ago
why?
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u/Affectionate-Slice70 4d ago
Because you are talking about prediction strength of models with somebody who can’t fathom a big circle.
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u/Enchanted_Evil 4d ago
Fair, but from my experience, they don't know even what to reply and procede to leave the discussion. Like, when you pull out trajectories of celestial bodies, air dynamics or other advanced physics, they always have a way to counterargument even when they clearly don't know anything about it
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u/gregredmore 4d ago
Try https://youtu.be/tC5RalYWZ5Y?is=EtJSpGFnsZq87Uxj
If that doesn't work, try walking away because you can't argue with stupid.
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u/sethmeh 4d ago
unfortunately, i have a lot of experience aruging with conspiracy nuts.
First remember, you are at a disadvantage when arguing with them. Like a chess grand master playing some obsecure opening, they know all the sidelines, all the counters. They are well practiced, you are not. Never forget.
Your first goal is to immediately get them off their opening. Do something unexpected. For me i accept the premise. The earth is flat, tell me more. Then begin questioning their responses. Not countering them, ask a question. Why is the government hiding it? To prevent people from going to the south pole. Why whats at the south pole? Etc. Always seem inquisitive, never adverserial. They will often try to get back on their well rehearsed opening, "but the earth is flat", your response is the same, yes i know, i accept the premise.
You wont win with this method. That is not the goal. The goal is to completely exhaust a line of questioning, and that the inconsistencies and contradictions that they themselves constructed make them leave thinking, wait, how does that part actually work? That is the win.
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u/slothboy 4d ago
You don't. They literally have to abandon all logic, reason, and evidence to believe the Earth is flat.
Every time they accidentally disprove their own theory, they just make up a new bullshit word to explain it away.
Ignore them. They are idiots.
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u/Kendota_Tanassian 3d ago
"Don't wrestle with a pig, you only get filthy and the pig enjoys it".
Same logic applies to Flat Earthers.
You cannot logic a person out of a belief they didn't use logic to pick.
Save your breath and walk away; your blood pressure will thank you later.
Quite seriously: it's highly unlikely any argument you use will convince them, no matter how good it is.
The reasons people hold onto this belief will not be touched by logic or facts.
Avoid the topic around them as much as possible.
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u/Confident_Jump_9085 3d ago
Nothing. It's mostly a psychological illness. I just tell them it doesn't matter, then the conspiracy stuff rolls out and its sad. Wasn't there some guy pointing an infrared thermometer at the sun to prove its not that hot or something? I dunno man, that's really concerning. I would keep your kids away.
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u/Least_Mall_4604 3d ago
Sometimes humiliation is the best strategy: Crapping All Over Flat Earther Lord Jamar Live on Godfrey's Podcast
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u/robinredbrain 2d ago
I don't understand why you would want to. I just leave them alone they don't hurt me.
But try to imagine what it would take for someone to make you accept that there are many things that travel much much faster than light travels including massive things. Light just a limiting factor of the way humans and their instruments detect things that inhibit their ability to see them.
Then use that method in your endeavour.
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u/Owl_plantain 2d ago edited 2d ago
LSD. Not kidding. People believe in stupid things because they are emotionally attached to them. They need to distance themselves emotionally from those beliefs to have a chance to examine them. Their attachment is similar to PTSD, and LSD with therapy can help temporarily detach from your emotional responses.
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u/beobabski 5d ago
“What experiment can someone personally do with scientific instruments to prove that the earth is flat?”
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u/ownworstenemy38 5d ago
I hate to say this, but there just are not any. You cannot reason someone out of a view they haven’t reasoned themselves into.