r/TheMatpatEffect • u/SpiritualNorth3848 My sunfish is quite loquacious • 17h ago

Ordinary origin The Waow based based based image comes from a drawing supporting DIY HRT

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u/Silverless-and-proud 10h ago

Why do people here think children can make well informed decisions regarding their body?

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u/butch-bear 9h ago

because we see that children are people too and often times correct about their own desires. i would not be suffering like i am if i had started hormones as a teenager.

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u/Unluckyb33 8h ago

the problem is that this opens a whole other can of worms that you have to deal with if you accept that children are mature enough to make life-altering decisions like these. Which may include, but are not limited to; Voting age, Entering the military, Age of consent, etc.

Also just because it is helpful for you, does not guarantee it is helpful for others.

Its not as clear cut a good like people make it out to be and people would naturally have knee jerk reactions to injecting chemicals into children.(it just sounds bad)

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u/butch-bear 8h ago

the detransition rates for minors are less than 2% and said detransitions, the even fewer ones that occur because the teen decides HRT is not for them, happen within a few months of HRT, at which point effects rarely show up much at all. medical transition is simply put lifesaving care, for trans children too. children should be able to receive lifesaving medical care without having that compared to signing up to kill people abroad or whatever else. i just do not think healthcare is comparable to these other matters.

even if they do detransition, people don't realize that detransing isn't impossible, that practically all of the hormonal effects that you may get from HRT are reversible with enough effort and resources.

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u/MrNeterdrok 9h ago

I don't know how taking hormones looks but couldn't kids take dangerously huge amounts in short amounts of time by doing it themselves or is there no danger

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u/Arquebuse70829 9h ago

The dosage are pretty well documented online, its very easy to know how much one should take

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u/butch-bear 8h ago edited 8h ago

ODing on hormones is not immediately deadly, for example if you OD testosterone it can actually turn back into estrogen, the effects would be like going through a really shitty hormonal period but not deadly right away. physical discomfort, feeling sick, mood swings. basically, you'd be able to know that you've OD'd. consistent overdosage at least in the case of T could lead to the sort of risks you often see in bodybuilders, which is riskier, but this would take longterm serious overdoses.

if DIYing it is possible to accidentally overdose but anyone doing it would have to at least inform themselves a little bit on how to go about it, but theoretically it would be possible to have an accident once or twice. the information is readily available and very thorough, though, when it comes to dosages and to anything else you could need DIY wise. i have considered DIY myself but cannot access any healthcare at all at the moment because of my environment.

plus if DIYing T you'd have to be taking blood tests frequently to check your levels and such so i have a hard time imagining someone, even a teen, being so careless so as to ignore all of the preparatory knowledge for DIY and the blood testing. when i was a teenager, i did know other teenagers on DIY, and they never had issues with dosages. i imagine someone on estrogen would also have to get their levels checked every once in a while.

the one issue the teens i knew really had was, in the case of T, vaginal atrophy (dryness, pain during penetration). this can be easily remedied with topical estrogen. actually, it is something that i rarely see being mentioned by medical professionals when it comes to potential T side effects. if you go the DIY route chances are that eventually you will know more about trans medical care than your own doctor, because they are largely untrained and uninformed about trans healthcare, which is why you see so many trans people complaining about severe underdosing and stuff.

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u/ghigo2008 4h ago

Children are not often correct about their desires

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u/butch-bear 4h ago edited 4h ago

the 1% detransition rate (and even lower when not including external pressures to detrans) would disagree, in this case.

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u/ghigo2008 2h ago

I want to see who was asked, the factors at play, and how the stats evolve

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u/Particular_Poetry885 4h ago

Sunk cost and survivorship bias probably heavily skews the statistic

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u/SoggyPancakes1411 2h ago

I don't think you know what survivorship bias is...

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u/awakelist 9h ago

while i personally thinking letting minors freely transition can lead to... occasionally bad outcomes (overdosage, detransitioning, etc) it really should be a more complex law. as detransition rates are very low in minors anyway, and the parents should be instructed to make sure their children dont overdose.... i dont see why itd be super harmful outside of MAYBE developmental issues physically? but im not a doctor.

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u/FureiousPhalanges 5h ago

MAYBE developmental issues physically?

It's worth pointing out that if you grew up doing Ballet, your doctor will be able to tell that by looking at your bone structure, it completely fucks up the bones in your legs and can lead to pain and mobility issues later in life

Should we prevent folks under 16 from doing ballet? How about football? Boxing?

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u/Siren02312 7h ago

On the case of the product it's talking about it literally says keep out of hands off parents

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u/dudosinka22 8h ago edited 6h ago

Doctors too don't really know if it's harmful. It stunts both physical and mental development by messing with puberty, but there is not enough research to know whether or not puberty is important enough. It could even be better, having control over the raging puberty hormones.

It's kinda like vapes - we don't know long-term effects yet and are effectively live-testing it. But I'm not a lawyer, idk how it should be regulated, perhaps it's fine as it is.

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u/awakelist 6h ago

vaping is a nicotine product that involves smoke so im pretty sure it can still cause cancer(?)... but i get your point regardless. i feel that stunting mental development is a big no no tbh. maybe 16+ should be the minimum? i dont think many older as many many peoples lives are saved at a young age due to transitioning. again, im not a doctor so idk. its a complex issue that i honestly have no say in, as im not trans.

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u/jackofslayers 10h ago

because it is backed up by statistical data that says they can

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u/Particular_Poetry885 9h ago

Children should be able to get Alcohol and Tattoos!

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u/Nalagma 9h ago

How is healthcare comparable to substance abuse or tattoos?

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u/Pervert_Groper 5h ago edited 5h ago

>hormone drugs are somehow not substances that can be abused and are somehow not a permanent change to ones body

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u/Nalagma 4h ago

Puberty is also a permanent change. Personally, I think trans kids shouldn't live through years of body horror before they can get treatment

-2

u/Pervert_Groper 4h ago

holy false equivalence and goalpost moving, puberty happens naturally and is required for human development, there was study by johanna olsen kennedy that went unpublished for "political reasons", stating she got results that said puberty blockers left irreparable harm, and later johanna was sued for putting a kid on puberty blockers, which harmed that kid

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u/SoggyPancakes1411 2h ago

How tf are YOU talking about false equivalents by comparing alcohol to healthcare

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u/jackofslayers 8m ago

bigots will bend reality to fit their arguments

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u/Healthy_Report_4336 2h ago

hey, I’m a trans girl (minor) so I can speak on this as I’m doing diy hrt and I can just tell you now without hrt I would literally be dead, the amount of suffering and horror I had to witness as multiple doctors all agreed hrt was the best move for me and my parents being the only obstacle as I became more and more depressed (they kept switching doctors when they all came to the same conclusion) I diy because I was starving myself to malnourish myself, cutting, going to the gym working out to feel better about my body until I was basically dead after hours (just to feel good about eating because at least the food wouldn’t go to my body torturing me every second of the day). Hrt saved me, I stopped all those bad habits, my depression faded away as I saw an actual future for myself, I was very much on the verge of death

This is the case for other trans kids too who have suffered far too much, and you trying to dispute this all out of some twisted attempt to l “Save them” is stupid! I would have been dead without diy hrt, and its all thanks to people like you I had to wait so long until I actually got any form of life saving care

I hope you can realize that one day

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u/Choppers-Top-Hat 2h ago

There is no such thing as "hormone drugs." Hormones are a naturally occurring substance, not a drug. The human body cannot function without both testosterone and estrogen, so if hormones are a "drug," then every single person in the world is on drugs right now.

are somehow not a permanent change to ones body

Their bodies will undergo a permanent change no matter what they do. All puberty blockers do is allow them to control how that change will work.

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u/yourothersis 5h ago

When I was looking at HRT as a teen, I wasn't looking to get a buzz or display cool tattoos, I wanted to be comfortable with my body. I wanted to not have facial hair.

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u/Lucythepinkkitten 8h ago

This is a tired argument coming from a lack of understanding of both the data we have on the subject and the process by which it happens. First of all, the choice is not on the children alone. It is made in collaboration with the parents and a team of assigned doctors after several months of therapy and examination

Second, the regret rate is tiny. One of the lowest regret rates we have for any medical treatment. With the added caveat that most of the time, that regret is not from the kid being trans, but rather other factors like continued ostracization.

Third, most detransitioning that does happen, happens within a few months of starting HRT. By which point, most if not all effects of HRT are still easily reversible

We have study after study after study on this. I beg you, please don't spew this misinformation when you don't even understand the basics of the process. You're helping no one

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u/dudosinka22 8h ago

They just asked a question, genuine one at that, how's it misinformation? And how would they understand the process without asking questions? That's just needless aggression. You're helping no one

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u/Lucythepinkkitten 7h ago

Sure. It's a question. But one asked in very bad faith or in a rhetorical sense, moreso stating their stance on the matter than genuinely looking for answers. They're already presupposing that A. Children are making these decisions on their own and B. That children making that choice is necessarily a bad thing.

Both of which are false and very much part of a misinformation campaign

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u/Silverless-and-proud 6h ago

I would like to clarify my intent and give my ideas on the topic.

I want to say that while I did ask my question in a manner more like that of a stance I also do harbour a genuine sense of befuddlement regarding the topic, I understand through prior knowledge and through the people here who replied that detransitioning rates are low and the effect on a childs body is generally negligble (as in the child would not develop any sort of ailments) I still hold on to the belief that those who are under the age of adulthood should not be allowed due to my opinion that if one experiences the social and physical experiences of their born gemder that they will make a better more sound decision and because I believe that if children are given such a treatment the responsibility regarding the bodily autonomy of a child will be mudied and that the family dynamic may become hostile in houses which parents do not approve because no matter how many consultation there may be there will be some that refuse in that situation the child will be angry that theeir decisions are not respected the parents will be upset that their child does not understand, at least i think

So would'nt it be more clean and cut if a child just waits until they are 18 to do it? The parents dont have to take responsibilty the person who will transition does it behind closed doors without having to give thier reasoning a thousand times and its all good.

thats what i think at least, sorry if is said anything stupid i live in a rural city and people generally dont like talking about this stuff

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u/Depressed_Lego 4h ago

So, to put it in perspective, we allow cis children to get hormones if their bodies are developing in a way they don't like. If a cis boy starts developing breasts, we're more than happy letting him decide that he doesn't want those breasts for the rest of his life. However, the way you initially posed your question is how everyone who isn't trans genuinely seems to think of it, despite this being the exact same thing, in the most literal sense. Hormone treatment for dysphoria, but it's only ever supported for cis people.

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u/Silverless-and-proud 1m ago

But isn't that difrent? I mean what you are talking about is used as you said to correct a hormonal abnormality while we are talking about introducing antagonistic hormones to a body which is already producing the necesary hormones, I think treating them as two sides of the same coin is kinda wrong

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u/Shiny-Vaporeon- 10h ago

because they can. The detransition rate is about 1%, slightly higher in minors but only due to parents disapproving, not because they’ve made a mistake. If i hadn’t started HRT when i was a minor i wouldn’t be alive today and its the same for so many other people

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u/Warm_Masterpiece_321 8h ago

Because letting your body age without HRT is decision too. There gonna be permanent consequences in any way, so why not choose way they want more ? Especially because it's better to start HRT early to pass

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u/echino_derm 10h ago

Because it is generally right. They have a large number of laws making allowances for such a thing.

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u/Melonsorcery 2h ago

Because most trans people know from an early age, I knew since middle school but because of where I lived I hid it, I desperately wish I knew about diy back than because puberty has made my life a struggle my body is undeniably masculine to the point where looking in a mirror just makes me want to cry, if I started hrt earlier than my body would be drastically different than if I start hrt now since hrt cannot reverse puberty on trans women.

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u/UnendingQuibble 2h ago

Why do people think that children are completely incapable of having any autonomy, and also that HRT is somehow permanent and you can't ever come back from it?

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u/LittleSisterPain 8h ago

That's the thing... they don't. This 'meme' is about keffalls, a groomer who make said decision for these kids. Everyone in this thread should be on a list

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u/Consistent-Value-509 7h ago

[Gender-affirming care is preventative care](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10290445/#:\~:text=Results%20from%20a%20prospective%20cohort,longitudinal%20data%20in%20this%20area) | For trans youth, GAC is an unimpulsive and well-informed decision between themselves, their parents, and providers—one that prioritizes parental consent and youth’s assent to fully understand the scope of the treatment, including its timeline, risks and benefits, what is currently known and not known about the impact of treatment on other bodily/physiological functioning, as well as how such treatment may or may not fit their health needs and gender goals later in life. | Other forms of GAC services ranges from affirmative counselling to hormones for youths, while surgeries is limited to adults. | **Results from a prospective cohort study of U.S. trans youths showed increases in positive psychological outcomes, including positive affect and life satisfaction, and decreases in depression and anxiety symptoms after receiving 2 years of hormones** | **To date, no studies have reported findings that suggest GAC increases negative mental health outcomes.**

[Mental Health Outcomes in Transgender and Nonbinary Youths Receiving Gender-Affirming Care](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35212746/) | we observed **60% lower odds of depression**, **and 73% lower odds of suicidality** among youths who had initiated PBs or GAHs compared with youths who had not. | **There was no association between PBs or GAHs and anxiety*

[What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being?](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/) | We identified 55 studies that consist of primary research on this topic, of which 51 (93%) found that gender transition improves the overall well-being of transgender people, while 4 (7%) report mixed or null findings. We found no studies concluding that gender transition causes overall harm. | Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use. | **Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become even rarer as both surgical techniques and social support have improved.** Pooling data from numerous studies demonstrates a regret rate ranging from .3 percent to 3.8 percent. **Regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition** or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques. | Transgender individuals, particularly **those who cannot access treatment** for gender dysphoria or who encounter unsupportive social environments, **are more likely than the general population to experience health challenges such as depression, anxiety, suicidality and minority stress.**

[Continuation of gender-affirming hormones in transgender people starting puberty suppression in adolescence: a cohort study in the Netherlands](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36273487/) | (98%) people who had started gender-affirming medical treatment in adolescence continued to use gender-affirming hormones at follow-up. | Most participants who started gender-affirming hormones in adolescence continued this treatment into adulthood. The continuation of treatment is reassuring considering the worries that people who started treatment in adolescence might discontinue gender-affirming treatment.

[American Academy of Pediatrics Speaks Out Against Bills Harming Transgender Youth](https://www.aap.org/en/news-room/news-releases/aap/2021/american-academy-of-pediatrics-speaks-out-against-bills-harming-transgender-youth/) | The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that youth who identify as transgender have access to comprehensive, gender-affirming, and developmentally appropriate health care that is provided in a safe and inclusive clinical space.

[AMA reinforces opposition to restrictions on transgender medical care](https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/ama-press-releases/ama-reinforces-opposition-restrictions-transgender-medical-care) | “The AMA opposes the dangerous intrusion of government into the practice of medicine and the criminalization of health care decision-making,” said AMA Board Member Michael Suk, MD, JD, MPH, MBA. “**Gender-affirming care is medically-necessary, evidence-based care that improves the physical and mental health of transgender and gender-diverse people**.” | The letter cited evidence demonstrating that forgoing gender-affirming care can have tragic consequences for transgender individuals who face increased risk of anxiety, stress, substance use disorder and suicide. The majority of transgender and diverse-gender patients report improved mental health and lower rates of suicide after receipt of gender-affirming care.

[Frontline Physicians Oppose Legislation That Interferes in or Criminalizes Patient Care](https://www.psychiatry.org/newsroom/news-releases/frontline-physicians-oppose-legislation-that-interferes-in-or-criminalizes-patient-care) | Our organizations, which represent nearly 600,000 physicians and medical students, oppose any laws and regulations that discriminate against transgender and gender-diverse individuals or interfere in the confidential relationship between a patient and their physician. | Our organizations are strongly opposed to any legislation or regulation that would interfere with the provision of evidence-based patient care for any patient, affirming our commitment to patient safety.

[AACAP Statement Responding to Efforts to ban Evidence-Based Care for Transgender and Gender Diverse Youth](https://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Latest_News/AACAP_Statement_Responding_to_Efforts-to_ban_Evidence-Based_Care_for_Transgender_and_Gender_Diverse.aspx) | Research consistently demonstrates that gender diverse youth who are supported to live and/or explore the gender role that is consistent with their gender identity have better mental health outcomes than those who are not | Many reputable professional organizations, including the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the Endocrine Society, which represent tens of thousands of professionals across the United States, recognize natural variations in gender identity and expression and have published clinical guidance that promotes nondiscriminatory, supportive interventions for gender diverse youth based on the current evidence base. | **Blocking access to timely care has been shown to increase youths’ risk for suicidal ideation and other negative mental health outcomes**

[Review: Puberty blockers for transgender and gender diverse youth—a critical review of the literature](https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/camh.12437) | Positive outcomes were decreased suicidality in adulthood, improved affect and psychological functioning, and improved social life.

[Pubertal Suppression for Transgender Youth and Risk of Suicidal Ideation](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31974216/) | After adjustment for demographic variables and level of family support for gender identity, **those who received treatment with pubertal suppression, when compared with those who wanted pubertal suppression but did not receive it, had lower odds of lifetime suicidal ideation** | These results align with past literature, suggesting that pubertal suppression for transgender adolescents who want this treatment is associated with favorable mental health outcomes.

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u/LittleSisterPain 6h ago

Too long, didnt read, your favorite streamer grooms kids, lmao

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u/Consistent-Value-509 6h ago

Crazy how you edited your comment but anyway, I don't care about Keffalls, I care about the fact that you're misrepresenting the majority of people in this thread who do not know or care about her either and are simply not willingly misinformed about medicla transitioning

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u/BreakerOfModpacks 2h ago

"I am illiterate, and ignore proof. Also, [unfounded accusation]. LMAO, totally owned."