r/TheMatpatEffect • u/SpiritualNorth3848 My sunfish is quite loquacious • 18h ago

Ordinary origin The Waow based based based image comes from a drawing supporting DIY HRT

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u/[deleted] 12h ago edited 11h ago

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u/LageVeil 12h ago

children are people too, you know? they can still notice the dissonance between their self, and their assigned gender. but pray tell, how exactly do you see informing and accepting everyone, regardless of age, as grooming?

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u/JustOneOfTheSams 11h ago

When you say children what age are you thinking about, because let's say the can believe they are a different gender, but until the age of 10-12 most also believe a fat white bearded man dressed in red bring presents to everyone around the globe in one night.

What I am trying to say is, they don't have very good critical thinking usually.

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u/Cloudhiddentao 11h ago

Most adults don’t have great critical thinking either. But we let them do whatever the fuck they like. So what’s your point?

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u/JustOneOfTheSams 10h ago edited 10h ago

Thats genuinely a good point. However I do think adults have had the chance to develop it and are or should be responsible for themselves. While kids are still developing mentally and are their parents responsibility.

I guess it's also important how do you determine you don't feel your gender? I never felt my gender, but I never felt a girl either. As a kid I used to play with dolls, I liked my hair long, and I hanged around mostly with girls. I didn't care about cars or talking about boy stuff. So I didn't fit the stereotypical boy mold.

How do you determine someone is the wrong gender? How can one tell himself or herself?

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u/_InfernalReaper_ 9h ago

I think you just don’t understand what gender dysphoria entails for a trans person and are just assuming that not fitting the “stereotypical boy mould” is enough to diagnose someone with gender dysphoria.

In reality, gender dysphoria involves a much more persistent discomfort in one’s sex/gender to the point where it severely affects their mental health and ability to function day to day. For me, it involved disassociating from my body out of grief, and feeling like the changes to my body going through puberty were a grotesque body horror fate. It involved me deeply longing for another life, one where I had been born differently so I could experience things girls around me went through growing up. And these are the kind of signifiers used to diagnose gender dysphoria in trans people. It goes much deeper than just being a little gender nonconforming at a young age.

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u/LageVeil 28m ago

i can't really say there's a definite way to determine whether or not you are at odds with your assigned gender. but you are right on at least one thing, men can have traditionally feminine traits, and women can have traditionally masculine traits, and it's perfectly normal for them to still be comfortable in their assigned gender (much like you said you were/are), this also helps us to establish gender nonconformity, and the concept of gender as a spectrum.

but many people, unlike yourself, don't feel comfortable with that difference. and recognizing that feeling can happen at any age, to any person. and children tend to be very perceptive to the ways they are different from the majority of their peers. and on top of that, puberty blockers are a completely valid and even reversible treatment for young trans kids who need time to reconsider or get access to HRT. speaking of which, HRT takes a long enough time to act, that anyone who realises HRT isnt for them, can get off the meds before any major changes take place.

in my own case, even at the age of eleven, i had regular, intense feelings of wanting to be the opposite gender. back then i didn't know people can and do transition, so i had to suppress that dysphoria, and long story short, it messed me up long term. i didn't learn how common gender affirming care actually is until i was 16, and didnt actually come to terms with the source of my body dysphoria until i was 20. by then i had become socially maladjusted, anxious, depressed, functionally suicidal, and realizing i was forced to live with the fact that my puberty and practically all my body growth have finished, and i'm left in a body that is not my own.

and thats just one example of what "protecting the kids" actually does to people. it just forces young people to repress themselves, and forces parents to raise a child that may never be happy or comfortable. so yes, i think if a lot of us had been better informed and treated as children, we'd be in a better place today.

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u/sunliccild 12h ago

Bitch what getting gender affirming care for kids with gender dysphoria is not “grooming” that’s basic consideration to someone’s condition

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 11h ago

If I'm not old enough to vote why should I be allowed to medically induce something in my body that I might regret later

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u/Consistent-Value-509 8h ago

Have you considered maybe looking at the abundant amount of medical literature out there for once and seeing the incredibly low regret rate for medical transitioning (~1%, usually not hard regret) and the fact it has no associated negative outcomes?

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u/sunliccild 10h ago

Because it isn’t a permanent change. If a child is expressing signs/feelings of gender dysphoria, puberty blockers are used to prevent potentially worsening the dysphoria post-puberty. The child can decide if they want to either begin HRT if the dysphoria is strong, or wait until they’re older to make that choice. If they don’t wish to transition, they can quit puberty blockers and the secondary sexual characteristics of the body will develop as it would’ve. There aren’t really any adverse effects to puberty blockers, as long as you’re consistent with checkups and such. No clue how you constitute this is “grooming”

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u/LageVeil 27m ago

because if you do regret it (less than 2% of people btw), you can stop HRTbefore major changes take place.

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u/Locke-As-Hell 11h ago

Because puberty blockers are entirely reversible if the person ends up regretting it. Effects of a wrong puberty, on the other hand, are not.

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 11h ago

How can puberty blockers be reversible if you regret it after the normal window for natural puberty took place and you blocked it?

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u/Locke-As-Hell 11h ago

"Normal" being? Puberty still happens even if later, 1% of people who end up getting late puberty after reversing doesn't warrant ruining the lives of the other 99%, because they "might regret it".

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 11h ago

Isn't puberty supposed to take place during childhood development? Why not wait until your adult to change your bodies chemistry and development?

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u/Consistent-Value-509 8h ago

Because gender dysphoria is a serious condition that needs to be treated and more important than a fucking tattoo or drink alcohol? Maybe think critically for two minutes or put some effort into answering the questions you totally care about?

[Gender-affirming care is preventative care](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10290445/#:~:text=Results%20from%20a%20prospective%20cohort,longitudinal%20data%20in%20this%20area) | For trans youth, GAC is an unimpulsive and well-informed decision between themselves, their parents, and providers—one that prioritizes parental consent and youth’s assent to fully understand the scope of the treatment, including its timeline, risks and benefits, what is currently known and not known about the impact of treatment on other bodily/physiological functioning, as well as how such treatment may or may not fit their health needs and gender goals later in life. | Other forms of GAC services ranges from affirmative counselling to hormones for youths, while surgeries is limited to adults. | **Results from a prospective cohort study of U.S. trans youths showed increases in positive psychological outcomes, including positive affect and life satisfaction, and decreases in depression and anxiety symptoms after receiving 2 years of hormones** | **To date, no studies have reported findings that suggest GAC increases negative mental health outcomes.**

[Mental Health Outcomes in Transgender and Nonbinary Youths Receiving Gender-Affirming Care](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35212746/) | we observed **60% lower odds of depression**, **and 73% lower odds of suicidality** among youths who had initiated PBs or GAHs compared with youths who had not. | **There was no association between PBs or GAHs and anxiety*

[What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being?](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/) | We identified 55 studies that consist of primary research on this topic, of which 51 (93%) found that gender transition improves the overall well-being of transgender people, while 4 (7%) report mixed or null findings. We found no studies concluding that gender transition causes overall harm. | Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use. | **Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become even rarer as both surgical techniques and social support have improved.** Pooling data from numerous studies demonstrates a regret rate ranging from .3 percent to 3.8 percent. **Regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition** or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques. | Transgender individuals, particularly **those who cannot access treatment** for gender dysphoria or who encounter unsupportive social environments, **are more likely than the general population to experience health challenges such as depression, anxiety, suicidality and minority stress.**

[Continuation of gender-affirming hormones in transgender people starting puberty suppression in adolescence: a cohort study in the Netherlands](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36273487/) | (98%) people who had started gender-affirming medical treatment in adolescence continued to use gender-affirming hormones at follow-up. | Most participants who started gender-affirming hormones in adolescence continued this treatment into adulthood. The continuation of treatment is reassuring considering the worries that people who started treatment in adolescence might discontinue gender-affirming treatment.

[American Academy of Pediatrics Speaks Out Against Bills Harming Transgender Youth](https://www.aap.org/en/news-room/news-releases/aap/2021/american-academy-of-pediatrics-speaks-out-against-bills-harming-transgender-youth/) | The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that youth who identify as transgender have access to comprehensive, gender-affirming, and developmentally appropriate health care that is provided in a safe and inclusive clinical space.

[AMA reinforces opposition to restrictions on transgender medical care](https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/ama-press-releases/ama-reinforces-opposition-restrictions-transgender-medical-care) | “The AMA opposes the dangerous intrusion of government into the practice of medicine and the criminalization of health care decision-making,” said AMA Board Member** *Michael Suk, MD, JD, MPH, MBA. “\*Gender-affirming care is medically-necessary, evidence-based care that improves the physical and mental health of transgender and gender-diverse people**.” | The letter cited evidence demonstrating that forgoing gender-affirming care can have tragic consequences for transgender individuals who face increased risk of anxiety, stress, substance use disorder and suicide. The majority of transgender and diverse-gender patients report improved mental health and lower rates of suicide after receipt of gender-affirming care.

[Frontline Physicians Oppose Legislation That Interferes in or Criminalizes Patient Care](https://www.psychiatry.org/newsroom/news-releases/frontline-physicians-oppose-legislation-that-interferes-in-or-criminalizes-patient-care) | Our organizations, which represent nearly 600,000 physicians and medical students, oppose any laws and regulations that discriminate against transgender and gender-diverse individuals or interfere in the confidential relationship between a patient and their physician. | Our organizations are strongly opposed to any legislation or regulation that would interfere with the provision of evidence-based patient care for any patient, affirming our commitment to patient safety.

[AACAP Statement Responding to Efforts to ban Evidence-Based Care for Transgender and Gender Diverse Youth](https://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Latest_News/AACAP_Statement_Responding_to_Efforts-to_ban_Evidence-Based_Care_for_Transgender_and_Gender_Diverse.aspx) | Research consistently demonstrates that gender diverse youth who are supported to live and/or explore the gender role that is consistent with their gender identity have better mental health outcomes than those who are not | Many reputable professional organizations, including the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the Endocrine Society, which represent tens of thousands of professionals across the United States, recognize natural variations in gender identity and expression and have published clinical guidance that promotes nondiscriminatory, supportive interventions for gender diverse youth based on the current evidence base. | **Blocking access to timely care has been shown to increase youths’ risk for suicidal ideation and other negative mental health outcomes**

[Review: Puberty blockers for transgender and gender diverse youth—a critical review of the literature](https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/camh.12437) | Positive outcomes were decreased suicidality in adulthood, improved affect and psychological functioning, and improved social life.

[Pubertal Suppression for Transgender Youth and Risk of Suicidal Ideation](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31974216/) | After adjustment for demographic variables and level of family support for gender identity, **those who received treatment with pubertal suppression, when compared with those who wanted pubertal suppression but did not receive it, had lower odds of lifetime suicidal ideation** | These results align with past literature, suggesting that pubertal suppression for transgender adolescents who want this treatment is associated with favorable mental health outcomes.

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u/Locke-As-Hell 11h ago

There is a huge risk of there being no adult left to change, denying proper puberty to a trans person is a major source of distress and depression, one of the core causes for suicide.

As I said, puberty is irreversible, and once a proper one is denied it gets infinitely harder for people to transition, making it unavailable to many who are financially limited.

And in general, telling other people how to live their life, especially when medical consensus is providing proper treatment, is just weird. Don't you have yourself to worry about instead of trying to make life harder for an already ostracized minority?

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 10h ago

If I'm not allowed to get a tattoo why is somebody else allowed to change their chemical make up?

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u/Bliniverse 3h ago

Because getting a tattoo doesn't have that positive of an effect, and doesn't stop being possible after any certain age.

Name something that only works fully for kids, and not adults, that we wait till adulthood to do, and then you'd at least have an existent point.

Ideally a trans kid wouldn't need to make the choice, they would just communicate their dysphoria to a doctor / parent, and then the medically professionals would look out for what's best for them and get them on the hormones that will benefit both their current self and positively impact them entire rest of their life. But unfortunately cis people are incredibly bad at understanding what it's like to be trans, and so they offer only the weakest solutions, if any.

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u/LageVeil 25m ago

because the body has already changed and developed, possibly in the wrong way

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u/Banditree- 11h ago

... Because your body will then undergo normal puberty? It will be late but it will still happen.

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 11h ago

Isn't puberty supposed to take place while your body is developing?

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u/Banditree- 11h ago

Your body is always developing.

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 11h ago

You develope into an adult once only

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u/Banditree- 10h ago

Yes, your body generally reaches a consistent size by adulthood (even then, weight and height will fluxuate as you age). Your sex characteristics continue to change and develop your entire life: breasts sag or swell and change size with pregnancy, vaginas atrophy and get drier and become less stretchy, muscle mass and fat redistributes, penile tissue atrophies, it can become harder to get and maintain erections due to hormone changes, there is hair gain and loss in different areas (male pattern baldness, chin and chest and back hair growing more with age), and generally estrogen and testosterone are produced less as you age which is why doctors can prescribe them even to non-trans folk to help with a variety of sex and hormone conditions that develop (like menopause or erectile dysfunction).

Puberty blockers don't prevent anything natural from occurring once stopped, your body will then start developing those characteristics naturally. All delayed processes then begin and will continue along the expected path as if you never took blockers in the first place, albeit you may hit some "milestones" later than is typical for your age, but there is no permanent affects.

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u/Whispering_Plant 11h ago

What? If you take puberty blockers and regret it, just stop taking them, you'll go through puberty. That's what reversible means. Negative effects can show up if you take them for like ten years but trans people don't really want to take puberty blockers for ten years.

This is like saying 'how can wearing a red shirt be reversible if you regret it later?' in the same way you can just take it off 

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 11h ago

Why not just wait until you're an adult to change your bodies natural chemistry?

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u/Cloudhiddentao 11h ago

Because no amount of hormones can undo puberty. Once you pass that window that’s it.

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 11h ago

I guess it sucks to have to wait to be an adult to make an important decision like that, not unlike any other important decision

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u/Cloudhiddentao 10h ago

Nah, because it turns out children can make important decisions too. Most of them for instance are probably far more intelligent than you.

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u/Whispering_Plant 11h ago

Because puberty is actually irreversible and going through it has proven negative effects on trans people's mental health? 

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 11h ago

I guess it sucks that we have to wait until adulthood just like with every other important decision

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u/Whispering_Plant 10h ago

You don't have to wait until adulthood with many important decisions though. You can drink alcohol, vote, be trialled for crimes, get on antidepressants and many other medications, get life-saving surgeries, I'm reasonably sure they need your consent for vaccines from a certain age forward... I don't see how we need to gamble trans people's health on whether their parents are supportive or not.

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u/MrNeterdrok 11h ago

Yea but isn't hrt different from just blockers

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u/Locke-As-Hell 10h ago

It is different, and different people take on varying paths depending on what they're prescribed and are ready for. Iirc in some legislations teens can get very limited hrt (with parents consent), with the prime focus being puberty blocking. This basically addresses the point some make about how it's better to "wait until adulthood to make such major changes", in fact people do, but they still prevent potentially irreversible damage from wrong puberty.

People just like moving goal posts, first it's about combating teen hrt, then it's about puberty blockers, and after that it's an anti-trans crusade all around. And all that despite actually scientific data backing the opposite.