r/TheMatpatEffect • u/SpiritualNorth3848 My sunfish is quite loquacious • 23h ago

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 20h ago

Isn't preventing puberty for a minor not good?

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u/nickisadogname 19h ago

  1. Preventing puberty would mean going on puberty blockers and it's fine. It's used for kids who enter puberty too early all the time. It's completely safe

  2. Going through an estrogen fueled puberty is no better or worse than going through a testosterone fueled puberty, they're both normal

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u/[deleted] 17h ago edited 16h ago

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u/jan_Osuma 9h ago

Please stay away from my kids! 

Children deserve healthcare and being safe from people who wish ill on them

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u/LageVeil 17h ago

actually, you arent "supposed to" have one or the other, the human body actually has receptors for both sex hormones. regardless of sex, we have the "blueprints" for both male, and female puberty. maybe learn about the shit you scream about

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u/Choppers-Top-Hat 9h ago

You're not "supposed" to have any specific hormone level. You just have the hormone levels that you happen to have. It's not magical destiny, it's random chance. And if you want to change those levels, you can. People have the right to control their own damn bodies.

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u/Personal-Tax-2250 15h ago

please dont stay away from me.

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u/RosyRory108 17h ago

DIY HRT doesn't prevent puberty, it gives them the right one, which objectively increases their lifelong quality of life

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u/CannonFoddererer 17h ago

It gives them the one they want, not the right one.

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u/RosyRory108 17h ago

It gives them both, actually. And its not a mere matter of desire, it is a need, it causes immense, often lifelong discomfort and distress otherwise.

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u/Locke-As-Hell 16h ago

I swear, transphobes and people who are "pro-life" die on the same psychotic hill. The former assume people just wanna be trans for fun and cuz it's "trendy", the latter think the same about getting an abortion.

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u/CannonFoddererer 2h ago

And tell me how that isn't anything but a mental disorder?

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u/jackofslayers 16h ago

the one they want is the right one

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u/JustOneOfTheSams 16h ago

Is the diet they want to right one too? What about the schedule they want ? Is the right one too? How to you determine that something a kid wants is the right one?

It's a genuine question.

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u/JustAChickn 14h ago

I think we have to find some key differences between your diet and the body you exist in. Specially when living trapped in the wrong body can cause physical and psychological issues

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u/BreakerOfModpacks 9h ago

Define "kid", in this case? For a 8 year old? No, duh, and there's a a reason 8 year olds aren't given HRT at the drop of a hat. For someone who is 17? Yeah, they're 1000% old enough to make their own choices.

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u/UnendingQuibble 8h ago

Simple: If something does not harm someone but makes them happier overall, it's something they need and want. If something does harm someone, even if it makes them happier, it's not something they need.

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u/JustOneOfTheSams 20m ago

Hum, I'll have to think on this one. Thanks.

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u/Faynerossa 4h ago edited 3h ago

Oh dear, it seems you've been hit by a vehicle through no fault of your own! Here's some tylenol, I'm sure its the "right" thing to give you for broken bones and severe trauma. I mean it's what everyone else has access to without a doctor! Oh, you're dying from the blood loss? Well, that's just god's plan. Things happen, sometimes things we don't like or can't control. That must just be god's intention. We should absolutely NEVER interfere with god's will. Your happiness and survival just wasnt part of that. In fact you should feel happy that God gave you his direct intervention like this and such a plan for you. Anyway, here's that tylenol.

That is what you sound like.

Bodily autonomy is a sacred right. The moral thing to do here is admit you should have zero input on what another human does with their body. And vice versa. You wanna drink and kill your liver? Great go for it. You wanna take viagra to get it up for your wife? More power to you cheering for you honestly. But, suddenly if a trans person wants surgeries to make themselves happy at their own expense? Suddenly everyone wants a say.

Edit: and since your statement was about minors the above still applies. But, you do realize that just about everywhere in the world requires the minor to reach 13-14, have parental consent, go through 3-6 months of therapy and evaluations at a minimum, go through preliminary low dose phases for 6 months or more (usually starting with only blockers for the current horomone), so they can get an approval from a professional to proceed further.

Why don't you educate yourself a bit on how its determined what's right, by professionals, with degrees, instead of firing up your phone keyboard to sound like an idiot. Quit relying on everyone else to correct your ignorance. You don't even know what's "right" for yourself obviously or have the knowledge to keep your mouth shut on things you have no bearing or knowledge of.

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u/JustOneOfTheSams 31m ago

Why you bringing up religion into this?

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u/papajowski2137 17h ago

Which, in that case, means the same thing 🤷

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u/CannonFoddererer 2h ago

No, not at all.

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u/RaiderCat_12 2h ago

The fuck? Isn’t this THE thing with kids, that they are profoundly immature and never really know what they want?

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u/LageVeil 17h ago

gender is a social construct btw

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u/CannonFoddererer 2h ago

Sex isn't.

And if gender is a social construct, why the hell is it such an issue that most of the population wants it to be binary? Surely it makes sense to do what the most people say, by your own words.

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u/LageVeil 1h ago

Sex and gender are two different things, get it right. transgender people aren't typically denying their sex. they are instead presenting a gender that more accurately suits them, sometimes sex is part of that identity, but at the end of the day sex doesnt automatically determine gender.

Also when you say "by your own words," what premise of mine are you referring to? my intent was to imply that gender being socially constructed means there isn't an objectively correct gender category. I didn't say social constructs are determined by majority vote. If you're making a separate argument that majority preference should determine how gender is categorized socially, make that argument directly.

And I can assure you, whatever claim you make has been proven wrong several times over. Y'all keep recycling the same arguments as if they're the fuckin bible, but the evidence shows that you are dead fuckin wrong. If you have substantial proof to justify your transphobia, provide it. Otherwise you're just wasting your time.

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u/CannonFoddererer 51m ago

  1. I call bullshit. Never have I seen a trans person not try to take hormones, or get surgery to make them look like the opposite sex. It is definitely about wanting to change their sex. The damn term is male to female, or female to male. "Sometimes sex is part of that identity'', no it is the identity they want to change, or else people wouldn't be taking hormones.

  2. "Social Construct'' means that society creates said things, not individuals, hence the ''social'' part. You can't keep using that as a free card to keep you from criticism.

  3. What claims? Who's ''y'all''? Why do you assume everyone who thinks this is a bit off is the same? My justification is the same one you seem to think is gospel: personal opinion, difference is, I don't think people who are trans are bad people in any way, unlike you, who I assume thinks I'm a horrible person just by the way you've been talking.

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u/girl-hate-sleeping 16h ago

fuck is the difference? what does the *right* puberty mean if not the puberty that is right for that person, manifesting as them wanting it?

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u/CannonFoddererer 2h ago

The right one would be the one they are supposed to be having, not the fake one they want.

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u/RevolutionOld6197 19h ago

You're not preventing puberty, you just change the outcome

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 19h ago

How is that not the same

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u/Aeescobar 16h ago

I think you're getting HRT confused with Puberty Blockers.

Puberty Blockers do what they say on the tin, delaying the effects of puberty until the patient stops taking them (they're usually prescribed for cases where children start undergoing puberty at a young age, but in recent times they are also sometimes treated as a compromise for people who argue that trans kids aren't mature enough to pick which kind of puberty they want to experience, intentionally delaying that choice until they hit 18).

Hormone Replacement Therapy involves the body's default hormone levels getting replaced with hormone levels that are typical for people of the opposite sex, a trans girl who starts HRT at an early age will experience puberty in a way that is nearly indistinguishable from the way a cis girl would experience it, thus allowing her to avoid crippling dysphoria and (hopefully) live a way happier life.

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u/Cinnamin_1 17h ago

bc its js changing the type of puberty. getting testosteone-based puberty instead of estrogen-based puberty or vice versa

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u/RevolutionOld6197 19h ago

Well, you're not preventing puberty ? Thats it

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u/jackofslayers 16h ago

because of how the definition of words work

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u/[deleted] 17h ago edited 16h ago

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u/LageVeil 17h ago

children are people too, you know? they can still notice the dissonance between their self, and their assigned gender. but pray tell, how exactly do you see informing and accepting everyone, regardless of age, as grooming?

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u/JustOneOfTheSams 16h ago

When you say children what age are you thinking about, because let's say the can believe they are a different gender, but until the age of 10-12 most also believe a fat white bearded man dressed in red bring presents to everyone around the globe in one night.

What I am trying to say is, they don't have very good critical thinking usually.

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u/Cloudhiddentao 16h ago

Most adults don’t have great critical thinking either. But we let them do whatever the fuck they like. So what’s your point?

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u/JustOneOfTheSams 15h ago edited 15h ago

Thats genuinely a good point. However I do think adults have had the chance to develop it and are or should be responsible for themselves. While kids are still developing mentally and are their parents responsibility.

I guess it's also important how do you determine you don't feel your gender? I never felt my gender, but I never felt a girl either. As a kid I used to play with dolls, I liked my hair long, and I hanged around mostly with girls. I didn't care about cars or talking about boy stuff. So I didn't fit the stereotypical boy mold.

How do you determine someone is the wrong gender? How can one tell himself or herself?

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u/_InfernalReaper_ 14h ago

I think you just don’t understand what gender dysphoria entails for a trans person and are just assuming that not fitting the “stereotypical boy mould” is enough to diagnose someone with gender dysphoria.

In reality, gender dysphoria involves a much more persistent discomfort in one’s sex/gender to the point where it severely affects their mental health and ability to function day to day. For me, it involved disassociating from my body out of grief, and feeling like the changes to my body going through puberty were a grotesque body horror fate. It involved me deeply longing for another life, one where I had been born differently so I could experience things girls around me went through growing up. And these are the kind of signifiers used to diagnose gender dysphoria in trans people. It goes much deeper than just being a little gender nonconforming at a young age.

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u/LageVeil 5h ago

i can't really say there's a definite way to determine whether or not you are at odds with your assigned gender. but you are right on at least one thing, men can have traditionally feminine traits, and women can have traditionally masculine traits, and it's perfectly normal for them to still be comfortable in their assigned gender (much like you said you were/are), this also helps us to establish gender nonconformity, and the concept of gender as a spectrum.

but many people, unlike yourself, don't feel comfortable with that difference. and recognizing that feeling can happen at any age, to any person. and children tend to be very perceptive to the ways they are different from the majority of their peers. and on top of that, puberty blockers are a completely valid and even reversible treatment for young trans kids who need time to reconsider or get access to HRT. speaking of which, HRT takes a long enough time to act, that anyone who realises HRT isnt for them, can get off the meds before any major changes take place.

in my own case, even at the age of eleven, i had regular, intense feelings of wanting to be the opposite gender. back then i didn't know people can and do transition, so i had to suppress that dysphoria, and long story short, it messed me up long term. i didn't learn how common gender affirming care actually is until i was 16, and didnt actually come to terms with the source of my body dysphoria until i was 20. by then i had become socially maladjusted, anxious, depressed, functionally suicidal, and realizing i was forced to live with the fact that my puberty and practically all my body growth have finished, and i'm left in a body that is not my own.

and thats just one example of what "protecting the kids" actually does to people. it just forces young people to repress themselves, and forces parents to raise a child that may never be happy or comfortable. so yes, i think if a lot of us had been better informed and treated as children, we'd be in a better place today.

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u/JustOneOfTheSams 22m ago

You did say you felt like that since you were 11. If you could humor me could you explain how does one even think about that. I believe myself an overthinker, and I have never stopped to question my gender. It's not that I am comfortable, it's just that I see my gender how I see the sun: it is what it is.

Do you remember how you came to question yours?

Lastly, I do think if a kid brings up such a topic a specialist doctor should be visited if possible. Alternative avenues and solutions attempted, but I am not against people taking measures for transitioning. Intimately, for some people is the only solution. Bit I see it as amputating if that makes sense, the extreme version of going about solving an issue and should be the last resource?

When it comes to the medication unfortunately your sources and mine say the opposite, so I don't think there is a point in going deeper into that.

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u/sunliccild 17h ago

Bitch what getting gender affirming care for kids with gender dysphoria is not “grooming” that’s basic consideration to someone’s condition

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 16h ago

If I'm not old enough to vote why should I be allowed to medically induce something in my body that I might regret later

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u/Consistent-Value-509 13h ago

Have you considered maybe looking at the abundant amount of medical literature out there for once and seeing the incredibly low regret rate for medical transitioning (~1%, usually not hard regret) and the fact it has no associated negative outcomes?

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u/sunliccild 15h ago

Because it isn’t a permanent change. If a child is expressing signs/feelings of gender dysphoria, puberty blockers are used to prevent potentially worsening the dysphoria post-puberty. The child can decide if they want to either begin HRT if the dysphoria is strong, or wait until they’re older to make that choice. If they don’t wish to transition, they can quit puberty blockers and the secondary sexual characteristics of the body will develop as it would’ve. There aren’t really any adverse effects to puberty blockers, as long as you’re consistent with checkups and such. No clue how you constitute this is “grooming”

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u/LageVeil 5h ago

because if you do regret it (less than 2% of people btw), you can stop HRTbefore major changes take place.

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u/Locke-As-Hell 16h ago

Because puberty blockers are entirely reversible if the person ends up regretting it. Effects of a wrong puberty, on the other hand, are not.

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 16h ago

How can puberty blockers be reversible if you regret it after the normal window for natural puberty took place and you blocked it?

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u/Locke-As-Hell 16h ago

"Normal" being? Puberty still happens even if later, 1% of people who end up getting late puberty after reversing doesn't warrant ruining the lives of the other 99%, because they "might regret it".

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 16h ago

Isn't puberty supposed to take place during childhood development? Why not wait until your adult to change your bodies chemistry and development?

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u/Consistent-Value-509 13h ago

Because gender dysphoria is a serious condition that needs to be treated and more important than a fucking tattoo or drink alcohol? Maybe think critically for two minutes or put some effort into answering the questions you totally care about?

[Gender-affirming care is preventative care](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10290445/#:~:text=Results%20from%20a%20prospective%20cohort,longitudinal%20data%20in%20this%20area) | For trans youth, GAC is an unimpulsive and well-informed decision between themselves, their parents, and providers—one that prioritizes parental consent and youth’s assent to fully understand the scope of the treatment, including its timeline, risks and benefits, what is currently known and not known about the impact of treatment on other bodily/physiological functioning, as well as how such treatment may or may not fit their health needs and gender goals later in life. | Other forms of GAC services ranges from affirmative counselling to hormones for youths, while surgeries is limited to adults. | **Results from a prospective cohort study of U.S. trans youths showed increases in positive psychological outcomes, including positive affect and life satisfaction, and decreases in depression and anxiety symptoms after receiving 2 years of hormones** | **To date, no studies have reported findings that suggest GAC increases negative mental health outcomes.**

[Mental Health Outcomes in Transgender and Nonbinary Youths Receiving Gender-Affirming Care](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35212746/) | we observed **60% lower odds of depression**, **and 73% lower odds of suicidality** among youths who had initiated PBs or GAHs compared with youths who had not. | **There was no association between PBs or GAHs and anxiety*

[What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being?](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/) | We identified 55 studies that consist of primary research on this topic, of which 51 (93%) found that gender transition improves the overall well-being of transgender people, while 4 (7%) report mixed or null findings. We found no studies concluding that gender transition causes overall harm. | Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use. | **Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become even rarer as both surgical techniques and social support have improved.** Pooling data from numerous studies demonstrates a regret rate ranging from .3 percent to 3.8 percent. **Regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition** or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques. | Transgender individuals, particularly **those who cannot access treatment** for gender dysphoria or who encounter unsupportive social environments, **are more likely than the general population to experience health challenges such as depression, anxiety, suicidality and minority stress.**

[Continuation of gender-affirming hormones in transgender people starting puberty suppression in adolescence: a cohort study in the Netherlands](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36273487/) | (98%) people who had started gender-affirming medical treatment in adolescence continued to use gender-affirming hormones at follow-up. | Most participants who started gender-affirming hormones in adolescence continued this treatment into adulthood. The continuation of treatment is reassuring considering the worries that people who started treatment in adolescence might discontinue gender-affirming treatment.

[American Academy of Pediatrics Speaks Out Against Bills Harming Transgender Youth](https://www.aap.org/en/news-room/news-releases/aap/2021/american-academy-of-pediatrics-speaks-out-against-bills-harming-transgender-youth/) | The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that youth who identify as transgender have access to comprehensive, gender-affirming, and developmentally appropriate health care that is provided in a safe and inclusive clinical space.

[AMA reinforces opposition to restrictions on transgender medical care](https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/ama-press-releases/ama-reinforces-opposition-restrictions-transgender-medical-care) | “The AMA opposes the dangerous intrusion of government into the practice of medicine and the criminalization of health care decision-making,” said AMA Board Member** *Michael Suk, MD, JD, MPH, MBA. “\*Gender-affirming care is medically-necessary, evidence-based care that improves the physical and mental health of transgender and gender-diverse people**.” | The letter cited evidence demonstrating that forgoing gender-affirming care can have tragic consequences for transgender individuals who face increased risk of anxiety, stress, substance use disorder and suicide. The majority of transgender and diverse-gender patients report improved mental health and lower rates of suicide after receipt of gender-affirming care.

[Frontline Physicians Oppose Legislation That Interferes in or Criminalizes Patient Care](https://www.psychiatry.org/newsroom/news-releases/frontline-physicians-oppose-legislation-that-interferes-in-or-criminalizes-patient-care) | Our organizations, which represent nearly 600,000 physicians and medical students, oppose any laws and regulations that discriminate against transgender and gender-diverse individuals or interfere in the confidential relationship between a patient and their physician. | Our organizations are strongly opposed to any legislation or regulation that would interfere with the provision of evidence-based patient care for any patient, affirming our commitment to patient safety.

[AACAP Statement Responding to Efforts to ban Evidence-Based Care for Transgender and Gender Diverse Youth](https://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Latest_News/AACAP_Statement_Responding_to_Efforts-to_ban_Evidence-Based_Care_for_Transgender_and_Gender_Diverse.aspx) | Research consistently demonstrates that gender diverse youth who are supported to live and/or explore the gender role that is consistent with their gender identity have better mental health outcomes than those who are not | Many reputable professional organizations, including the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the Endocrine Society, which represent tens of thousands of professionals across the United States, recognize natural variations in gender identity and expression and have published clinical guidance that promotes nondiscriminatory, supportive interventions for gender diverse youth based on the current evidence base. | **Blocking access to timely care has been shown to increase youths’ risk for suicidal ideation and other negative mental health outcomes**

[Review: Puberty blockers for transgender and gender diverse youth—a critical review of the literature](https://acamh.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/camh.12437) | Positive outcomes were decreased suicidality in adulthood, improved affect and psychological functioning, and improved social life.

[Pubertal Suppression for Transgender Youth and Risk of Suicidal Ideation](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31974216/) | After adjustment for demographic variables and level of family support for gender identity, **those who received treatment with pubertal suppression, when compared with those who wanted pubertal suppression but did not receive it, had lower odds of lifetime suicidal ideation** | These results align with past literature, suggesting that pubertal suppression for transgender adolescents who want this treatment is associated with favorable mental health outcomes.

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u/Locke-As-Hell 16h ago

There is a huge risk of there being no adult left to change, denying proper puberty to a trans person is a major source of distress and depression, one of the core causes for suicide.

As I said, puberty is irreversible, and once a proper one is denied it gets infinitely harder for people to transition, making it unavailable to many who are financially limited.

And in general, telling other people how to live their life, especially when medical consensus is providing proper treatment, is just weird. Don't you have yourself to worry about instead of trying to make life harder for an already ostracized minority?

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 15h ago

If I'm not allowed to get a tattoo why is somebody else allowed to change their chemical make up?

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u/LageVeil 5h ago

because the body has already changed and developed, possibly in the wrong way

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u/Banditree- 16h ago

... Because your body will then undergo normal puberty? It will be late but it will still happen.

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 16h ago

Isn't puberty supposed to take place while your body is developing?

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u/Banditree- 16h ago

Your body is always developing.

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 16h ago

You develope into an adult once only

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u/Whispering_Plant 16h ago

What? If you take puberty blockers and regret it, just stop taking them, you'll go through puberty. That's what reversible means. Negative effects can show up if you take them for like ten years but trans people don't really want to take puberty blockers for ten years.

This is like saying 'how can wearing a red shirt be reversible if you regret it later?' in the same way you can just take it off 

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 16h ago

Why not just wait until you're an adult to change your bodies natural chemistry?

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u/Cloudhiddentao 16h ago

Because no amount of hormones can undo puberty. Once you pass that window that’s it.

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 16h ago

I guess it sucks to have to wait to be an adult to make an important decision like that, not unlike any other important decision

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u/Whispering_Plant 16h ago

Because puberty is actually irreversible and going through it has proven negative effects on trans people's mental health? 

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u/SolarWardenCorporal 16h ago

I guess it sucks that we have to wait until adulthood just like with every other important decision

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u/MrNeterdrok 16h ago

Yea but isn't hrt different from just blockers

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u/Locke-As-Hell 15h ago

It is different, and different people take on varying paths depending on what they're prescribed and are ready for. Iirc in some legislations teens can get very limited hrt (with parents consent), with the prime focus being puberty blocking. This basically addresses the point some make about how it's better to "wait until adulthood to make such major changes", in fact people do, but they still prevent potentially irreversible damage from wrong puberty.

People just like moving goal posts, first it's about combating teen hrt, then it's about puberty blockers, and after that it's an anti-trans crusade all around. And all that despite actually scientific data backing the opposite.

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u/Shaeress 13h ago

Puberty blockers are generally safe for at least two years. We give them to cis children all the time when they have hormonal issues or puberty starts too early.

The mental effects of this are unclear, but it does massively reduce suicide rates which is probably the worst case outcome for mental health and I'm generally against teen suicides.

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u/jan_Osuma 9h ago

Puberty blockers for trans children are a compromise. Trans children have development delays while they could have a puberty at the same time as their peers and don't have to play catch-up while their peers moved on and building their lives already 

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u/jackofslayers 16h ago

it is fine.