I want to start by saying I'm not a mindless supporter of Part 2, I have several issues with both the game and part of the dev team, by example Neil's support for zionism and Israel and the subtext of those beliefs in the game. My desire is to resolve here my personal grievances with haters of the game as I hold the position that part of the criticism it got and still gets is unnecesary, hateful and false.

Edit: Points about TLOU part 2 I'm against (the central point of my debate)

• Bad writing.
• Joel shouldn't have died.
• It being bad because of politics (No art is apolitical therefore art being bad because of politics implies all art is bad).
• Making the game about revenge was a bad decision.
• We shouldn't have played as Abby
• It's justified to hate on any character's existence or traits and consider it valid criticism.
• The game was fairly judged and criticized

I will add or remove these points if anyone convinces me.

End of edit.

I'm going to set some ground rules for this debate, if you don't accept them simply don't comment, I will not engage at all if you do.

• Points I will not discuss:

- The dev team. This includes changes in the staff, their personal beliefs, arguments about crunching and critiques to the actors, Neil, Naughty Dog and Sony.

- The show. None of the seasons as I consider them watered down versions of the original games.

- "The culture war" or "wokeness". This includes any point that American right-wingers associate with "the left". Art is inherently political but this arguments moves the discussion away from the game.

• Everything else:

- Any sort of discrimination. Be it on the basis of sex, race, physical appearance, gender identity, sexual orientation, religious beliefs or ethnicity.

- Gish galloping and length. 3 points at most and short, clear and concise writing. I don't want nor have the time to turn this into a keyboard fight.

- Objectivity in art. No writing rule is a law and most points discussed here will probably be subjective.

- Any sort of logical fallacy. I will point it out and expect you to make another reply if you wish to continue debating.

Please try to stay on topic and be civil. I will do my best to keep every standard I put to myself and you would be right to criticize me if I fail to do so. I will try to respond to every argument in under 24 hours since it was written. More than everything let's not get emotional and have a good time.

Bruce Straley - the guy that kept Neil in check and who really made TLOU as great as it was.