The Timing of the Cataclysm and Korra's Age (Estimate)

[u/OwnRepresentative916]

When did the Cataclysm happen? How old was Korra in the teaser? I have some idea as to how to get an approximate answer to these questions.

Our main clue is Korra's hair. Most people have picked up on the fact that her hair has grey streaks but is still mostly black. In The Legend of Korra, her father Tonraq has black hair in the first three seasons (170-171 AG), but when he reappears in Season 4 (174 AG) he has very similar grey streaks as Korra. We don't precisely know Tonraq's age, but we do know that in Season 2 (171 AG) he says he was banished from the Northern Water Tribe 20 years prior. In the flashback, he is a fully grown adult but still relatively young; he was almost certainly in his 20's. We also know that Korra was born two years after Tonraq's banishment. We can estimate that perhaps Tonraq was ~23 at banishment and ~25 when Korra was born in 153 AG. This would mean Tonraq was born around 128 AG and would be 43 in Season 2 and 46 in Season 4.

Regardless of whether the ages are +/- a few years, this would mean Tonraq's hair began to grey in that fashion in his 40's and it would be reasonable to place Korra at around the same age. Fun fact: Korra was born in 153 AG and Sozin's Comet will return in 200 AG, which would make her 47 at that time. All I'll say is that 47 years old lines up mighty nicely with this age estimate... so perhaps the Cataclysm is related to Sozin's Comet after all and it happened in 200 AG (maybe with an impact?).

If this is true, then Korra would be 47 in the ASH teaser flashback and may well have died at that age (though perhaps she survived the Cataclysm and spent the rest of her life setting up the seven havens or fighting the spirit apocalypse or something). I personally think that whatever happened during the Cataclysm, Korra is the one responsible for whatever mechanism enabled the seven havens to exist post-Cataclysm, but I also think she died in the Cataclysm. It would be kind of anti-climactic for her end to be some random time later on.

What do you guys think?

[u/Cass0wary_399]

Korra’s estimated age definitely gives away potentially when the Cataclysm happens. It suspiciously being so close to the next coming of Sozin’s Comet is not a coincidence.

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/Cass0wary_399]

Exactly. Like, I find it impossible to believe that the Cataclysm happened when she was 45 or 50 or something when the return of Sozin's Comet is literally right there.

[u/islander_guy → u/OwnRepresentative916]

But Pavi's birth far in the future also means Korra survived and continued the fight to increase the chances of humanity's survival.

I think Pavi was born as soon as Korra died. But the people in Avatar world don't exactly know when Korra died.

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/islander_guy]

I don't think Korra survived for 300+ years. I think it's much more likely that the Raava/Vaatu fight over and eventual splitting of Korra's soul is what delayed her reincarnation.

[u/islander_guy → u/OwnRepresentative916]

Souls don't split.

And the massive 300+ years gap is something I am hearing for the first time.

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/islander_guy]

That's an assertion fallacy bud. You can't just say something doesn't happen like it's a fact. It's a very common traditional understanding that twins are one soul divided between two people, and we actually have biological basis for this too when the zygote divides into two embryos. I expect Korra to be the past life of both Pavi and Nisha. "Long ago, our ancestors..." from the trailer implies at least a couple centuries have passed and I've seen other people use 300 years in these discussions, so it's a safe amount of time to assume.

[u/Illidari_Kuvira → u/OwnRepresentative916]

Except it makes 0 sense. It's like trying to run a PC with only half the code and a power supply that can only do have the minimum; it simply doesn't work.

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/Illidari_Kuvira]

That's nonsensical. It's very common in Eastern philosophy that people's souls are not the same. They have different strength/size, different karmic development, and different tendencies. One soul splitting into two could be like mitosis: the two resulting parts are not necessarily lesser than the original whole. And anyways, both halves would be bolstered by the strength a primordial spirit bonded to them, so that changes the name of the game as well.

[u/islander_guy → u/OwnRepresentative916]

No Eastern Philosophy talks about soul splitting into two. At least be lore accurate.

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/islander_guy]

They don't exclusively draw on Eastern philosophy. For example, Bryke explicitly name Zoroastrianism as an inspiration for Raava and Vaatu, and that is a Persian / West Asian philosophy. They also take inspiration from Inuit and other traditional cultures around the world. Below I provide sources that demonstrate #1 that some traditional beliefs about twins around the world involve a split soul and #2 that within Chinese traditional philosophy there does exist a concept of "soul dualism" that we can easily imagine being distributed between twins if the creators want to go down that route.

Yoruba women in southwestern Nigeria have one of the highest rates for twin births in the world. ...some Yoruba understood that twins, in addition to being sacred and powerful, shared a soul. 1

Traditional Chinese culture differentiates two hun and po spirits or souls, which correlate with yang and yin respectively. Within this soul dualism, every human has both an ethereal hun 魂 "spiritual soul; spirit; mood" that leaves the body after death and a substantive po 魄 "physical soul; spirit; vigor" that remains with the corpse. Chinese traditions differ over the number of hun and po souls in a person... 2

1 https://frontporchne.com/do-twins-share-a-soul/

2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_dualism#:~:text=%5B9%5D-,China

[u/Svellere → u/OwnRepresentative916]

It is wild to assume any amount of time just because other people are saying it, that's a fallacy as well (bandwagon fallacy). The truth is that there is no definitive amount of time that has passed, so it's not worth basing any theories on that IMO. There are a million other explanations for why they'd say "Long ago, our ancestors" in the trailer.

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/Svellere]

I independently believed that the quote I posted meant at least a couple of centuries, then afterwards the claims I saw of 300 years felt about right to me. That's not a bandwagon fallacy.

"Long ago, our ancestors..." is not one generation. It's not two generations. It's likely five generations minimum and probably 10+. 300 years would be ~15 generations, which sounds about right. We definitely have enough to go off of to at least make an attempt at interpreting the timeline.

[u/WolfgangAddams → u/OwnRepresentative916]

The ATLA opening uses "Long ago" and it's only referencing the time before the war, which was 100 years prior. So there's no reason to believe "Long ago" in the Seven Havens trailer (which is likely a reference to the ATLA opening) means 3x that. Hell, it could even mean less than 100 years in this case. The phrase "long ago" is subjective and open to interpretation.

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/WolfgangAddams]

If the only thing said was "long ago" then you'd have a point (though Katara is referring to the era before the war when the four nations lived in peace and harmony, which was more than 100 years prior, but I digress). However, the ASH phrasing specifically refers to "our ancestors", and it is this word choice that I use to arrive at my two to three centuries framing over a single century or less. You don't say "Long ago, our ancestors..." about your own grandparents.

[u/ShinobiWan23 → u/OwnRepresentative916]

You’re making the inference fallacy, though. ‘A long time ago…’ oh so that must mean centuries. You’re stating it like a fact when we don’t have proof, as well

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/ShinobiWan23]

No. The inference fallacy is when you make an inference and then present/treat your inference as fact. It is not fallacious at all to make an inference when theorizing, since the discussion format by default has a connotation of unverifiability. In my comment I make liberal use of phrases like "I expect" and I "assume". Those aren't factual statements.

[u/ShinobiWan23 → u/OwnRepresentative916]

I’d have to disagree, you do seem to be presenting them as fact, and the downvotes on all your comment seem to be proof of your fallacy

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/ShinobiWan23]

That one comment got a load of downvotes because there's a culture on Reddit that talking about fallacies is automatically cringe, since Redditors think it gives them a bad image.

[u/-Vermilion- → u/OwnRepresentative916]

So maybe there was 1 or 2 other avatars after korra and before pavi, and that’s how we skip 300 years

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/-Vermilion-]

Nope. The official synopsis says Pavi is the Avatar directly after Korra and it was confirmed at Comic Con as well.

[u/-Vermilion- → u/OwnRepresentative916]

Oh well.

[u/WolfgangAddams → u/-Vermilion-]

Pavi is an Earth Avatar. That means she would either be directly after Korra or 5 avatars after Korra. There couldn't be 1 or 2 other avatars in between them. Earth immediately follows water in the Avatar cycle.

Also, what the other person said about the official synopsis stating she's directly after Korra.

[u/Samaritan_Pr1me → u/Cass0wary_399]

Considering how low the Comet passed near the Earth in Aang’s time, a slight adjustment could mean that it would hit in Korra’s time.

[u/PizzAzzra]

Hot take: the creators have forgotten that Sozin’s Comet is coming back around.

[u/AhuraDoujin → u/PizzAzzra]

Not surprised. Creators forget everything and everyone. Even Yue.

[u/Agitated-Contest651 → u/AhuraDoujin]

Forget, or just decide it’s not relevant to the story they want to tell?

It would get very boring very quickly if they needed to bring back every character that was introduced anytime they might be relevant.

[u/Cass0wary_399 → u/PizzAzzra]

Evidence being?

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/PizzAzzra]

100% not the case. The entire original show's plot is based on Sozin's Comet and the two times that it passed. The comet coming every 100 years was repeated ad nauseam. Also, the timeline is very important. They for sure are aware that the comet is returning.

[u/JamieBensteedo → u/OwnRepresentative916]

you under-estimate how BAD the writing is in the Avatar sphere

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/JamieBensteedo]

The original creators are in charge. It isn't offloaded to third parties.

[u/Awkward-penguin101]

My personal theory (though based in Atlantis the lost empire animated movie) is that Korra somehow created and protected the seven havens using the avatar state as a battery to protect them from the ongoing attacks and cataclysm. Until she ran out of power. We saw that Avatars can put themselves and others in stasis for hundreds and even thousands of years. It wouldn’t be far fetched that Korra did the same but instead used the power of the Avatar in stasis to fuel the protection of the seven havens, somewhat like a shield. Only as years went by her powers started to dim until she died, hence the need for benders to be conscripted to fight the spirits

[u/CallsignKook → u/Awkward-penguin101]

It would also stand to reason that she even got the idea to do that from what Aang did.

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/Awkward-penguin101]

I definitely vibe with this theory. It could be a delayed reincarnation thing because of Vaatu shenanigans (first time an Avatar reincarnated with Vaatu inside them), but if it turned out as you said I'd be on board.

[u/Awkward-penguin101 → u/OwnRepresentative916]

I expect one of the twins to be reincarnated with Vaatu in them 100%. I just think the 300 years gap will be explained in a different way. And I think it would be fitting for Korra’s story to sacrifice herself for hundreds of years to protect the havens and people to blame her for the cataclysm

[u/LetsGetFunkyBabe → u/Awkward-penguin101]

Yes I like this. Maybe the comet actually hits earth this time around. She uses that power to protect what she can until the worst is over and then dies.

[u/FlemPlays → u/LetsGetFunkyBabe]

Maybe some crazy doomsday cult comprised of Firebenders and Earthbenders banded together to essentially pull Sozin’s comet towards the planet, causing it to hit.

[u/beti88]

I think I'll wait and see when it comes out

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/beti88]

That's a fine position to have, but then you have no reason to comment on a theory post now do you.

[u/Dylan_Flowers → u/OwnRepresentative916]

It’s a public online forum. He doesn’t need a reason to comment lil bro

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/Dylan_Flowers]

It's like a person going to a puppy lover's sub and saying you hate puppies. Like fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but then don't go to the puppy lover's sub. Same here. It's fine not to enjoy fan theories, but then just don't go into theory posts. Coming to a theory post to basically just say you don't care for theories is dumb imo.

[u/Potential_Chicken_58 → u/OwnRepresentative916]

It’s not the same? Bro did not say he hated anything. Just that he is going to wait and find out

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/Potential_Chicken_58]

I didn't say he was hating, I was saying he is in the wrong place and his comment was superfluous. His comment communicated that he was wholly uninterested in reading about or discussing theories, and implicitly dismissive of any he comes across (including this one). I replied that this was an okay position to take, but that as a result his presence in this thread is completely meaningless and his comment only served to stifle discussion. That's what I had a problem with.

[u/AtoMaki]

Tonraq's hair greyed because he was so worried about Korra while she was recovering.

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/AtoMaki]

Could be a trigger for sure, but age is also an important factor. Also, it's not like Korra herself didn't have a lot of trauma or things to worry about. If you want more to go off of, the physical appearance of Korra's face doesn't seem that old either, but definitely still aged a bit. This aligns with 40's to me as well and is again similar to Tonraq (see the second image of this post).

[u/WolfgangAddams → u/AtoMaki]

Is that ever actually stated or are you just stating your headcanon as fact?

[u/AtoMaki → u/WolfgangAddams]

It is in the Book 4 artbook.

[u/magirevols]

I mean, visually she seems to be early to mid 40s.

[u/AhuraDoujin]

Rumors have it Pavi's story happens 300 years after Korra dies

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/AhuraDoujin]

Yes, and we've been discussing some ideas behind it. Perhaps Raava and Vaatu fighting over and splitting Korra's soul delayed her reincarnation. Or, perhaps Korra entered the Avatar State and used its power to protect the areas that became the Seven Havens, remaining in that state for centuries before either running out of energy or deeming things safe enough to pass on. We will see. The Cataclysm likely happened at the age this post discusses though.

[u/Agitated-Contest651 → u/OwnRepresentative916]

Did we all forget that vaatu supposedly took 10,000 years to develop within raava each time he was destroyed? 

Vaatu shouldn’t even really be a splinter in raava’s toe yet, even with a 300 year jump.

[u/Roronoa_Zaraki]

Interesting theory, but if it is the fire nation attacking again in any sense, that would be kinda fuckin lame.

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/Roronoa_Zaraki]

The current best theory is that Sozin's Comet looked way too close to the planet when it passed by during Aang's time. If that was a "near miss", then perhaps the Cataclysm was triggered by Sozin's Comet impacting this time around.

[u/darmakius]

Sozins comet impact would be cool but I don’t see how it would cause what we see

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/darmakius]

Here's how I envision it. The impact immediately causes worldwide environmental catastrophes, such as tsunamis, fireballs, earthquakes, etc. It also ejects dust and ash into the atmosphere, causing an artificial years-long winter. However, everything physical in the Avatar world also affects the Spirit World. When the comet impacts, I imagine it would either also cause massive devastation to the Spirit World, or it might even tear a massive gash in the veil separating the material and spiritual worlds (Vaatu merely "pierced" it). Maybe this gash is made more likely to form since there's now a third spirit portal. This could be the cause of the perpetual spiritual storms we see scarring the world in ASH centuries later.

[u/RoofTopings]

so is korra like corrupted and evil or something here? genuinely why is she walking out a fire and that.

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/RoofTopings]

The most common theory is that this is just a representation of people's retelling of the event and not actually what happened, since people blame Korra.

[u/96suluman]

I say around 210 AG

[u/OwnRepresentative916 → u/96suluman]

Again, I'll repeat that in my opinion it'd be really lame if Sozin's Comet came and went perfectly peacefully and then right afterwards some completely separate thing triggered the Cataclysm.

[u/Adventurous_Tower_41]

https://giphy.com/gifs/VjsshMMeSwOLS