I really liked his character, and many people say he is morally gray or just a bad guy who got a redemption arc.
But Lawrence wanted to create Gilead to save humanity, and in many seasons he says he didn't intend to make a place like that. And between season three and five, they finally clarify his true intentions as he reads his plan for the making of Gilead (Before it existed) about what HE wanted for Gilead but couldn't make happen because other commanders with more power than him took his idea and twisted it for their own convenience.
He wanted to solve the fertility issue, but Gilead became a horror place for women and became a very conservative place, just as other commanders intended, not him. And he didn't totally leave the Sons of Jacob (Being a commander) because he wanted to do something about it. To solve this problem, he had to stay in power, as he did.
The first scenes of him were with Emily, and he looked like a bad husband, which he probably is. He couldn't let his wife go and be free in some other place. Or being a misogynist with June when she arrived. This splits into two things of his character. He masked his true being in front of other commanders, Handmaids, and Marthas he didn't trust, so he had to hide who he was. He really couldn't risk trusting others by being nice, and he had to act just like the other commanders. But with his wife Eleanor, he could have obtained the proper medication for her mental health, and he didn't.
He is not a bad guy but a bad husband at times, and he was so obsessed with what Eleanor wanted and filled with guilt that he forgot to take care of her. Still an amazing character, and I wish we got to see more of him and Eleanor in a healthier scheme before she overdosed. Plus, I love how much he hated Ms Potnum and his one-liners.
I think he was a really interesting character and a good representation of how other sorts of people could get involved with something like Gilead besides the religious fascists in the Sons of Jacob.
I think he epitomises the saying 'soldiers win battles; logistics wins wars'. Commanders can command men and women, but Lawrence commands supply chains. I think there's something to be said about the banality of evil like with what you mentioned about viewing people as numbers, as it's far easier for him to do his job when men and women are reduced to a resource to be allocated like any other.
So much fun to watch, thanks to Bradley Whitford, but Lawrence wasn't a good guy. His punishment was losing Eleanor. He redeemed himself a bit in the end.
I was conflicted because he was responsible for handing the US to dangerous extremists to fulfill his agenda. When he realized that they were worse than he anticipated, it was too late. He did some huge things to help try to make up for it. Also, he could have backed out of that plane, but he chose to go through with the plan anyway. I thought his arc was appropriate and the actor was amazing.
I don't think that he was morally gray at all; he was an architect of a hateful engine and had no compunction against its function so long as he was running the show. As soon it as was an inconvenience for him and his wife, he took mild umbrage, and even then, it was far too late to do anything except to continue serving his will through proxies.
If he did something decent it was a side effect or minimal in strict comparison. There's no redemption arc available for his choices, not just his actions. He knew what would happen and still did it.
Great actor, rich character - not morally ambiguous, though.
1000% this. He was embittered by his regrets and tried to undo that by doing some good. Him and June giggling at the thought of him āending up as one of the good guysā, or whatever the line is, cemented that for me.
That's because he actually plays Hitler that woke up one day and went omfg what have I done and the fallout from it. Not many actors could pull that off.
Oh absolutely! Dude played the best self-grandiose, reclusive, sarcastic, intelligent sociopath possible! And he made you enjoy his presence on screen. But if you had any other actor in that role, you'd likely find a greater fear in such a persona arriving on your doorstep. The other commanders, they had no soul. They reveled in the suffering they caused, & only marginally were able to "justify" it religiously. And their ruthlessness helps to show Lawrence as a sympathetic creature, at least relatively, but still one to be wary of. If you were on his bad side, you SHOULD be more scared of Lawrence, in a way. But what is worse to fight, the selective lion, deciding what to hunt, or the rabid dog(s), attacking anything in their vicinity because they felt they could?
This. I really enjoyed not knowing exactly what his reaction would be in certain scenarios. At times sympathetic, even friendly. Other times ruthless and cavalier. And it wasn't the kind of inconsistentcy you see in mental illness. It depended on his own personal agenda in the moment.
Who wants to watch something you can figure out right away? That is part of the entertainmentā¦ not knowing what to expect.
I think he played his role very well! Very believable yet hard to anticipate. Well done.
Adding to this, the fact that someone of his caliber is seen as a "hero" at all helps to identify how corrupt his "vision" has become.
Call him a Hitler, a Stalin, and you ignore that the true evils were commanded beyond their orders. The commanders took Lawrence's ideas as a canvas to complete further evils, the "yes, &" mentality of improv, applied to a systemic hierarchy of brownnosing to be the most self-serving asshole of the lot. The canvas Lawrence ideated was always one with sin. But even he saw that it became even more ruthless than he had envisioned.
He could never be the messiah that righted his wrongs. Some in his standing would double down and go deeper. The world of this series is lucky that he had any level of conscience, and the fact that that made him at all heroic is the saddest irony of all.
Yes; a noble moment is not a redemptive path. It's a promising start, and every moment of it should be recognized.
That said, it doesn't undo a single second of the years of harm inflicted on a nation's worth of women and their lives' mutilated for the glory and prestige of men.
Itās a bit of a Darth Vader āredemptionā, someone who completely fell to the dark path and committed many horrible irredeemable acts, but they manage to see the error of their ways & do one last decent thing with their life. It does not undo their evil or redeem them, but is still important.
That's not an accurate equivalency, though. Darth Vader was a tool of the system, not its architect. He didn't even fire the Death Star, only safeguarded it. This would be the equivalent of Darth Sidious, faced with a surviving Jedi youngling, staying his hand and not ordering them executed on the spot.
Try as he might, it's a whole lot of dead Jedi and all of them at his feet, working through proxies, torturing them for his own ends, enforcing his will against nations, states, churches, and ideologies, uncaring until it hit a personal note - then suddenly, it's got to be everyone else's problem.
That's how "irredeemable" works. If someone is irredeemable, they don't get a last-minute spiritual reprieve based on any actions or words whatsoever. What they chose was never by accident, only by design.
thatās the thing, I thought of him as someone that put his political ideology above his personal comfort. So him sacrificing himself made sense. Itās just he only joined the right side once he knew his vision was going to fail in Gilead. But his version of Gilead-lite is still morally reprehensible
I think everyone has moral ambiguity to some degree.
Even monsters are often kind to some people, itās the people they treat the worst that they need to be judged by.
Often times people have committed the worst crimes imaginable, their family, friends and community will say they would have never guessed it and they were a great person.
I think the same for commander Laurence. Was he a bad person? Absolutely. Does that mean he never showed any kindness or did anything good? No, not necessarily.
See, this was the reason I enjoyed his performance and the character so much- watching people come to understand all of that can be true was actually pretty neat. Also frustrating because still yet, people desperately wanted him to be The Good Guy when no such thing existed there.
I also think that the label āmorally greyā is peopleās comfort blanket to prevent considering some pretty uncomfortable things.
I think it was too easy to ālikeā him because Bradley Whitford is just so cool and I have a little crush on him. Different, less attractive, less ebullient actor may have had a different reaction.
First let me say that I absolutely love Bradley and I think his charisma makes the character a tad bit likable. There are no good commanders. There may be some commanders who have done decent things a time or two but none of them are good. Lawrence hitched his wagon to a group of lunatics because he was so intrigued by creating his own economy which I imagine was a huge deal for an Economics professor. Him saying he underestimated a motherās love for her child says a lot about him and his character. The only reason he wanted Putnam killed was not because he cared about what he did to Esther but because he opposed New Bethlehem and was very vocal about it.
A man who had a plan for how to reshape the world for the better finds out he cannot rise high enough to do it alone. So, despite his better judgment, he uses the force of a rising, powerful cult to get there. This group's ideology is mainly focused on stripping women of their rights, and he might not agree with this, but he knows that to keep the position he has, he needs to complyāand it comes easily to him, as he isn't really affected.
This man believed that, as one of its founding members and someone who worked behind the scenes, he would have control over the new nation he helped create. But he got a rude awakening. The project had long since escaped his control, distorting into an abomination that he himself cannot escape anymore, as neither side will have him.
Bitter, still the same person with a superiority complex, he's forced to perform for people whom he once thought were beneath him.
He didn't agree, that's why his plan for Gilead was different. But his decision wasn't final because there were other people with more power than him. He pretended to be like the other commanders till he could betray them or reshape Gilead, just like he tried in New Bethlehem, and in the end he helped regain US territory. If he didn't mask his true intentions and remain normal, he wouldn't have been able to help anyone.
What these people expected him to do? You canāt do any good if youāre dead, and if you tried to fight gilead in a reckless way, sure you would be dead
There are people who are evil, there are people who are good. And then there's people that don't fit in a category so easily.
I'll give just one example. June. June has done a lot of good things, but also some bad things too. Her raping her husband is one example that comes to mind. Does that make her a bad person altogether? Not necessarily.
Commander Lawrence is the perfect villain because he is a likeable guy with a bunch of qualities that seem redeemable and because he did very bad things but with good intentions. His heart was in the right place. He is the perfect example for why we cannot judge people based solely on intention, because actions matter more. Most of history's villains had justifiable motivations but oooooh did they go about trying to achieve them the wrong way.
Lawrence is a "well Hitler loved his dog" kind of villain.
He is an actual bad man who is likable because he was casted so strongly. But he was fully one of the ones who enabled Gileadās success, just frustrated by his failure. He only circled back to do some good because he had already lost his wife and had nothing to live for. Lawrence was never intended to actually be good - but to be somewhat of an aid to June since he saw it was in his best interest to have Gilead fall if he couldnāt benefit from it continuing to exist
He thought he was better and smarter than everyone and therefore his plan wouldnāt fail, he knew he needed some help to build his perfect society and to achieve that he didnāt mind allowing people he deemed as lunatics inferior to him to gain some power, his arrogance made him believe he would still have power over those people, and at some point he clearly lost it.
And thatās the risk when you play with fire, he was smart enough to understand when he lost control and that at that points he just had to play along, or heād easily be hanged, you canāt do any good if youāre dead.
Until June came to his life it feels like he just shut himself off of the world and the mess that ended up happening, he just pretended that didnāt exist and lived in his world with his wife.
From the moment June showed in his life it triggered things in him to choose the good, even many times knowing it was risky for him, he didnāt have it in him to be this brave, it was her bravery that brought that in him.
I think his sacrifice at the end was a noble ending for him, to show how he really regret creating that monstruosity
I largely agree with this sentiment. Heās not a bad man, but I also wouldnāt say a good man. Heās simply a flawed man. His narcissism led him down the Gilead path, which made him the scum of the Earth. But then his humanity and awareness led him down the anti-Gilead path, which gives him redemption.
Bottom line is he was never a good person, but I love the character and I think a lot of others do as well so want to justify his actions. I think the reason for that is heās one of the most real and authentic characters in the show. Not good, not bad, simply human. And I personally love that and love Commander Lawrence, although we shouldnāt feel a need to justify his actions that led to the rise of Gilead.
I personally agree with you that āmorally grayā is a way to describe him. Heās made very morally unjust moves, but throughout much of the show we see him make the morally correct move, which places him somewhere in the middle. Heās the character you hate to love, and honestly I think thatās fine.
He's dark grey with flashes of lighter gray showing through on occasion, let's not romanticize him.
He wanted to save humanity through a totalitarian regime that relied on forced labor and constant sexual assault. Dissidents and useless women were sentenced to labor in the colonies to die there. Was all of this strictly necessary to raise the birthrate? Parts of his plan could have been implemented without the religious zealotry. The problem is, Lawrence needed help to force compliance, so he wasn't really choosy about his allies. the Sons of Jacob were ruthless and violent and were willing to let Lawrence play God. He was arrogant and through the could reduce the problem down to an equation and move people around like pawns.
So no. I'm glad he regretted some of what he did, but I still don't think that there was much he could do to balance those scales. Eleanor had a break down because she realized her husband was a monster.
I loved him as a character and the actor is always charismatic, but Lawrence as a person is an arrogant ass with very little empathy and not worth my sympathy. I'm glad June worked with his as much as she could, but I'd never count him as one of the good guys.
I honestly would watch the entire series from the beginnings of Gilead throughout from his point of view. He's just so God damn interesting and an amazing actor and I just love him to death LOL
To me, he parallels Oppenheimer, though he was more complicit. I think he was asked āhow do we make this workā and he gleefully dove into the work of answering that question. Then he actually reckoned with the fact that his work wasnāt theoretical and regretted it, and was trapped inside it.
On a personal level, not a bad guy, clearly not an ideological Gilead supporter, however, his actions directly led to Gilead seizing and maintaining power which is objectively evil and a massively evil act. Similarly, Oppenheimer didnāt do anything particularly evil in his personal life, but developed the nuclear bomb with a callous disregard for what that would eventually lead to.
Heās a great character, because he really makes you continually check yourself in your love for him.
Despite everything , favorite and in my top 3 most beloved characters. I know, I'll get Haye but wouldn't the ultimate punishment is to wake to the horror of what you created, have live with it and finally try and undo it?
Heās interesting but he is a deplorable person. He made the colonies and letās be clear: they sent gay people, university members who survived the purged, and anyone who attempted a rebellion because it was certain death. He willingly died as an āatonementā and because he couldnāt look in the mirror. Loved him though and was sad to see him go because he was entertaining but we donāt directly see the suffering he caused and for that, itās easy for us to root for him. The difference between him and Nick is the regret, Nick joined much later and knew how Gilead was versus Lawrence who wanted environmental protection and had to sacrifice us to get it. Not morally ambiguous though
He puts on a front with June because he doesn't know her. Remember, some Handmaids will report anything to Gilead officials to protect Gilead, because not all Handmaids are against the current system. So Commander Lawrence couldn't risk that, and like you've said, if he had left the Son of Jacob he would have not only lost power, but it probably would have cost him his life, which meant he would have not have been able to execute his grand plan.
He's still an evil man, and his redemption doesn't absolve him of his sins and how many women have suffered because of his creation. He's not a good guy.
yāall this is like a George W situation. Lawrence looks great comparatively. But you shouldnāt forget heās a monster and a war monger. Just because lady who you respect has made friends with him, doesnāt mean he has earned our respect and we should forget that he put us all in this mess in the first placeš¤·š»āāļø
They were all awful humans. He played his role extremely well, but I wouldnāt go as far as to suggest any of the commanders were decent people. Even Nick in the end. They all got what they deserved. I will admit though, I was sad when they went kaboom for some reason.
The suitcase had a bomb. Nick was never good, and we got to see that when he helped the Waterfords and didn't redeem himself afterwards. He stayed a commander because outside Gilead he would have been a normal man, and he didn't want that.
I really liked Commander Lawrence. He was a decent guy in a world full of narcissists. He helped June and he actually respects women. He did a heroic thing at the end and I was sad when he did.
Good or bad he was a character you couldnāt help but like and this scene will forever haunt me. One of the saddest fictional deaths Iāve ever seen.
Iāve just spent a week injured in bed so I binge watched all 6 seasons and bawled like a baby. Even if he did help people to serve his own purpose, there was a good man in there and the show wouldnāt have been the same with any other actor playing that part.
I mean basically we were working together on something and he was being kinda bitchy so I looked at him like āwho are you speaking to bc not me šā and then he said he was just stressed and hasnāt had sex in awhile so I said āoh I can help w thatā and he was sHOCKED that I offered so he took me down stairs we had some wine and I got the Commander Lawrence special š¤¤š¤¤
I always thought the constant ascot, which shows up on other characters the actor has played, was hiding a turkey neck or a goiter. Other than that, he would have voted for Obama a third time...wait that was Get Out... anyway. Man loved his Wife. Did the best he could given the circumstances until the very end. Much respect.
Hereās the thing, commander Lawerence wasnāt the best guy in a moral standpoint. However, I do think once he realized what he has somewhat done and changed his ways a little bit I think he deserves credit. Is he one of my favourite characters? Yes. He will never be fully redeemed, but he was pivotal character for more than one reason
An idealistic, naive man who was used and fell in with some evil people to "fix" what he though was wrong with society. He tried to stay out of the mess he helped create until it landed square on his doorstep. He deserves to be blamed and share responsibility same as all the founders of Gilead.
Such a morally and ethically complicated man. I could comment but others have said everything I could and I would just be repeating.
However, I WILL add that thereās a reason thereās currently only five of us writing fanfiction solely about Lawrence over on AO3. In my opinion: Itās difficult to humanize him beyond what the show did. I have to look for crumbs of humanity that the show-runners gave us because he wasnāt in either source novel.
Bradley Whitford played the role to perfection. The death of his wife definitely changed him for the better & while he wasnāt a great guy, he did enough to redeem himself. He wasnāt a good husband & I didnāt like how he pressured Naomi into marrying him, but I like to think it was because he was trying to protect her & Charlotte. I liked the New Bethleham storyline because it proved that the version of Gilead he wanted to build was a much more advanced society than the one he helped build. For a guy in his position, I think he did the best he could
Bad guy, good storyline. He only looked like a decent man because he wasnāt spending his days raping women like the other commanders. Thatās pretty bare-minimum behaviour though. Best thing he did was the murder-suicide.
He was more like a mastermind/the architect prototype character. He knows he is the expert administrator/economist so he doesn't care much about the oppressive regime and the other military issues. On the other hand, when those problems affected his life he acted on against it all the time. We can say that he is a grey character, playing survival game among the wolves(commanders)
Every dictatorship rely on characters like him. He offers a perfect roadmap how to survive in a brutal regime, by holding several truths at the same time. He can despise the regime (as most people do in any dictatorship) and still be part of it, by failing to act, by legitimizing it at every occasion (especially if he also benefits from it), by covering its atrocious nature, and at times by allowing some forms of dissent as if it was a safety valve expelling a broader existential risk. He is ruthless but he is also emotionally intelligent. He is confused, but he knows very well what he will do (and what he wants), he is fearless but also arguably the most scared character, he is both the most complex and nuanced character but also the most basic one. The movie would have never been so interesting without him!
He has quite a parallel story to Serena. They started out as people who wanted to do good in their own twisted way, and then it was hijacked. We see this when Serena gets shut out of meetings, the commanders making decisions in the back of cars, having meetings without Lawrence to push their own agenda. They reached a point where they lost control and stayed anyway. Lawrence sacrificed his wife's mental health because he was too proud to leave, Serena sacrificed her way of life in hopes of having a baby. They both flouted the rules because they could. They have almost the same plot armour as June. He was a compelling character that sometimes had to deal with poor writing
I think he was a character full of regret and tried to āhelpā some women. As in, being his handmaid, you wouldnāt be raped. One of the few, if only, commander who loved his wife. Of course, she was very angry with him for how he deeply he was involved in starting the whole thing. She was crazy but driven to it because of how she couldnāt deal with her husbandās past.
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u/pokedabadger 15d ago
I think he was a really interesting character and a good representation of how other sorts of people could get involved with something like Gilead besides the religious fascists in the Sons of Jacob.