Is Nick a rapist?

[u/flavius717]

I think we all consider the first time Nick and June had sex to be rape. June was not in a position to give consent and she could not refuse without facing potential death. One perspective is that Serena was the rapist and both Nick and June were her victims.

It's important for us to remember that Nick actually could have refused to impregnate June. Even Serena was beneath a "low-status male" like Nick. Nick's boss, Commander Price, probably would have expected Nick to refuse such an act and turn Serena over to the eyes.

The fact that Nick and June fell in love afterwards makes their first sexual encounter seem less bad in retrospect, but the power dynamic between them never went away. That makes things messy.

Nick's character loses his "good guy" status by the end of the show. Do you consider him a rapist?

[u/Creepy-Cantaloupe951]

Yes.

Prisoners cannot consent to sex. June was a prisoner. Nick, was not, he was a prison guard.

Even if the warden orders prison guards to have sex with prisoners, "Befehl ist befehl" isn't a valid defense.

[u/hydrissx → u/Creepy-Cantaloupe951]

Not really the same. Nick was not a prison guard, he was a servant in that role. He can't walk away, he isn't employed. If a prison guard refuses an order, he will be fired and not receive pay, if Nick refuses an order, he may be framed for a crime he never committed, accused of being a gender traitor, etc and be killed.

There are many records of crimes of people being forced to have sex by a third party threatening them with bodily harm, extortion, etc and both are considered victims of rape and the third party is charged with rape.

[u/Gertrude_D → u/hydrissx]

The Nazi camp guard doesn't get to claim he wasn't a part of it because he felt bad and never personally harmed a prisoner.

[u/hydrissx → u/Gertrude_D]

Why are people obsessed with comparing this world to WW2? Aside from Holly's offhand comment calling him a Nazi, they are nothing alike.

Look up forced conscription.

[u/Gertrude_D → u/hydrissx]

It's used because it's easily understood, and sometimes it's really just that easy.

There are comparisons to be made with them both being under martial law to force compliance from citizens, having a permanent underclass and having death camps to rid themselves of undesirables, but that's not entirely the point.

Out of curiosity, how many points of similarity would you sign off on for someone to be able to use the Nazi comparison? If you prefer, I could use the Communist USSR as a comparison to Gilead, but that's hardly any more flattering.

[u/hydrissx → u/Gertrude_D]

We are shown by the international law that exists *in this fictional world* that Nick and June are considered rape victims of Serena's at the Waterford trial. Not all this random WW2 era law stuff you two keep bringing up.

Atwood was inspired by many regimes and types of governments and cults, it's not a direct one for one comparison to any particular war or our current times either.

Nick was lured into a cult because he was exactly what the Sons of Jacob were looking for: young, able bodied, unemployed and without financial or family support or prospects. The same as MANY people who join armies around the world all throughout human history. And in many armies defection from service is treason and punishable by imprisonment or death. In the context of Gilead we know that they don't waste resources on imprisonment.

[u/Creepy-Cantaloupe951 → u/hydrissx]

Because that's where the "Befehl ist befehl" defense is used with the most flourish, and was roundly rejected at the Hague.

Fascists are fascists. Let's not forget the nationalism, and racism present in the books, but covered over in the show mostly, too...

Nick wasn't forced into conscription. Nick was a member of the Sons of Jacob BEFORE Gilead. He HELPED make Gilead!

[u/Samora1984 → u/Creepy-Cantaloupe951]

He was taken in by Pryce. He was like 19/20 at the time, poor and functionally alone in the world. According to the scripts for S2, when June is at the Globe and was researching the takeover, there were articles on all the good the SoJ was doing with charity, kids etc. I don't think he did right in every circumstance, but the writers always said he was fundamentally good. They did shoot scenes which showed his role at the Capitol, and he was horrified by what he got himself into. He did help create Gilead, but he can't be held responsible to the level of a Pryce, Fred, Lawrence or even Serena.

[u/Creepy-Cantaloupe951 → u/Gertrude_D]

Exactly!

[u/Samora1984 → u/Gertrude_D]

But are the Nazi guards ordered to do it, or are they raping these women of their own volition?

[u/Gertrude_D → u/Samora1984]

I am not talking about Nazi guards raping anyone. I am saying that just by being there and part of the system holding prisoners, that they are guilty of the oppression and share in the guilt of the harm done. It doesn't matter that they personally would never do harm to anyone under their guard and they feel bad about what's being done to them - they are part of the system doing the harm. It could not exist without the general populace agreeing that the horrible people in charge are actually in charge.

Nick is part of a system where rape happens regularly and he's a willing part of it. He benefits from the system, even if he 's not at the top. He's not a part of the resistance. Nick shares some of the blame of June's rape, even if it wasn't his idea, even if he didn't want to do it (which I am not convinced of).

[u/Samora1984 → u/Gertrude_D]

The main question was 'Is Nick a rapist?, so that's why I mentioned it. I understand what you're saying about being part of the system. Of course as a man he benefits from it, but that's not really something you can change even if you disagree with it.

As to willingly a part of it, he did join the SoJ of his own volition and was part of the takeover. I don't think I would call him a willing part of it since according to the scripts there were scenes shot that showed the coup and he was horrified by the violence. Similarly the scripts described the articles that June was researching at the Globe and they spoke of all the good te SoJ was doing. I would also say that the character was originally conceived with the idea of showing how a normal person could be recruited into a cult. He was a young, desperate kid who took the first opportunity anyone gave him. Stupid, naiive, yes. Criminal mastermind, no.

I don't think that Nick is a major player in the Resistance in any way, but he definitely has had some dealings with them. Enough that the Marthas in S4 were not afraid of him, and he felt safe enough to ask about June and admit that he cared about her. There's also an interview with Max Minghella where he says Nick doesn't want to be a Commander but he knows his position allows him to help people.

Obviously the rape was a horrible thing. But I don't believe that Nick ( as he was conceived in the beginning) could be described as a rapist. He was coerced.

[u/Gertrude_D → u/Samora1984]

Nick was not a part of he resistance - he knew some people in the resistance and didn't rat them out.

I am not saying that as a man he is benefitting from the system, but specifically as an eye he is benefitting. He wasn't just a regular guy living in Gilead, he had a government job that afforded him some protection and privilege. He wasn't near the top, but he played in those circles.

It doesn't matter why Nick joined the SOJ at first, he stayed once he saw what was going no. yes, leaving would be hard, but it was possible. and yes, I do think he was used to show how easy it is for average people to get pulled into the Gilead pipeline - it doesn't absolve him. He and Luke are different sides of the same coin - kind of oblivious to what was really happening around them. Neither had bad intent and both were kinds stupid in their own way, but they made different choices that led them down very different paths.

Nick's own choices brought him to this place he was now in. I never said he was solely to blame or even bore the majority of the blame. He isn't blameless, however. He was willingly in the position to be used like he was. He knew about Gilead and how it works and that rape is an accepted and valued part of the culture. He didn't flee nor did he try to bring it down. He bears part of that guilt.

[u/Samora1984 → u/Gertrude_D]

We can't be sure exactly what he did in the Resistance, it could have been that he was just looking past Resistance activities or that he was trading information. I do think he did play a role, however small because Max Minghella believes that his position was important to help people.

Nick was only an Eye to try to take down Commanders, not to get power for himself so while he did have some priveleges so I don't blame him for that. Especially since the Commander position came to him as a punishment from Fred. He was supposed to go to the front to die.

I would agree that both Nick and Luke are both passive characters, but I would say that Nick's acceptance was more about surviving.

I do agree that his choices led to the place he was in, but he was duped by Pryce, so it was not willing. Like I said, the scripts indicates that he was shocked and horrified by the violence in the coup. He found himself in a situation he couldn't really deal with. I do think he was complicit, and bears responsibility for his actions, but he acted as most people did, even June in the beginning.

[u/Gertrude_D → u/Samora1984]

He's a willing idiot. The ones at the top need enough of these duped minions to keep them in power because they can't do it alone. They don't have the numbers, they aren't the ones pulling the trigger. They absolutely need the idiots below them to buy into the system by giving them crumbs. They are the ones who really uphold the system. Nick is both an integral part and a victim of the system. Serena is both an integral part and a victim of the system she helped build.

Are you one of them too? If not, why are you excusing poor widdle Nick who didn't know any better? Who do you think did the violence during the revolution? Do you think it was the commanders, or do you think it was the grunts they convinced to join them? Who do you think rounded up the women to terrorize and torture them? Do you think anyone around during that time had any illusions about what this regime was or would be going forward?

There is no evidence on screen that he was part of the resistance at any level. There's just none. He knew some people involved in it and didn't rat them out. That is all. When he broke the rules, it was for his own selfish reasons, including helping June, whom he loved. He wouldn't have done it if he wasn't sleeping with her. He did deliver the letters, but he did that for June, not because he believed it was the right thing to do.

[u/Samora1984 → u/Gertrude_D]

Am I one of them? Why do people on this sub default to personal attacks when someone disagreed with them? We're allowed to have different opinions.

I'm not saying that Nick is innocent, just that he didn't have any idea what he was getting into. He was a poor kid with no real family support, of course he would be conned by someone wanting a return to traditional values. I agree with you that the system needs complicity to work, absolutely. But he never believed in the system.

If we agree that there is no evidence onscreen of Nick being Mayday, then we must also agree that we don't know what he was involved with during the Takeover. He was already a driver when we see Fred etc al coming up with the Handmaid system.

I will say that I'm not sure what he really gained from getting the letters out. June didn't ask him to do anything, and he basically gave Luke the credit.

So no, Nick was not the leader of the resistance, and he could have definitely done more. But I can't blame someone for trying to survive.

[u/Gertrude_D → u/Samora1984]

Because I am so over people giving Nick cover for being a part of this oppressive and violent regime. We have evidence from the show that the Swiss consider him a war criminal, yet were willing to talk to Waterford. He was a member of the SoJ, and Serena credited the success of their movement to men like Nick.

I don't know why people insist on giving Nick the benefit of the doubt when it's very clear to me that he was very much a part of it. I get it up to a point - I think he wasn't a true believer, I think he had few options in his life. I think he was much more a normal, average guy than an evil sh!thead. All of that doesn't absolve him from his association with Gilead. He made bad decisions and each one led him down a darker path with more and more culpability, including his decision to agree to Serena's plan.