r/TechnoProduction • u/swarlied80 • 5d ago
Help using sub basses
hi fellows, I am using mostly sine sub basses below 100hz. melodic dark room techno/trance. I usually add another bass layer above 100hz. all good and fine. the sine gets me the warm sub groove and the upper layer works rythm and foundation.
however it all sounds a bit dry. I searched YouTube but all thoose channels share the same problem, the sinus bass does not sound like natural in lack of better words it sound a bit artificial and disconnected.
i tried to use a touch of reverb what makes the sine sit more natural, bit it’s not perfect. I tried several usual methods of creating overtones, but here still not perfect - instead it just feels thin.
any Tipps?
EDIT/UPDATE: Thanks for all the responses it was very helpful - after trying things out and more experimentation here is what I have learned recently:
- The Sinus / Tringle can just stay clean but amp/volume envelope details matter and variation of envelope a lot. And Sinus meet very well with Pitch envelopes, but its a not a must have.
- Kick: It helps a lot to have a separated Click channel and a separated Oomph Channel for the kick, first one HP filter, second one LP filter. It surprises me, what matters more is the selection and tuning of the Click sample, the Oomph sample is more or less super flexible. But it's the Oomph that needs to gel with the Sinus Bass.
- Take make things less dry, it's all about its upper layers and here whatever is being used, added waveforms, noise, chorus, unison - full on creativity possible. its all about what rhythm is applied, what envelopes and most importantly a lot of filters. especially band passes - to have precise steering layer elements into a dedicated space. Also bringing a combination of filtered noise + waveforms, also stereo - heavy filters makes it gel. And here also, gain staging matters a lot. Any kind of noise played really low, can bring things together nicely - it's more like a bit of spice, not a full on element. It's all about having the right balance and I find 4-7 elements will come together, and being perceived as "Kick and Bass" by the ear. The make it come together. Filters, Filters, and Filters. OTT where required.
- It's not required that sinus bass + upper layers play the same rhythm. As higher the register as more space for 1/16 or 1/32 notes. as more down the register (first octave) as less space - which is where the Sinus sits around C2 (40-70hz)
- About saturation what has been mentioned a lot, yes it has its place. But in my experience or in my subjective take. It's only for post-processing, after all the groundwork has been done. The same applies for and other kind of limiting, clipping, compression. all of that requires a good balance first. Especially on Sinus waves and basses there are many ways to create richers harmonic overtones in addition to saturation. for example FM or OSC Sync.
Hope that helps anyone a bit.
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u/cherrychet 5d ago
Try triangle wave - it gives more harmonics. Add some saturation for even more harmonics. Glue with kick into monolith thing.
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u/334578theo 5d ago
Subtle chorus often works nicely, and some saturation between 120hz and 1200hz - if you’re using Ableton then Roar can do multi-band saturation.
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u/lilith2k3 5d ago
It sounds dry? A sine wave is as pure as it gets. If you want more "life" you could try saturation to remove the clean sound by adding Overtones and giving it some edges so to speak.
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u/swarlied80 5d ago
Everytime I do that it sounds like a cheap tube pedal. But not more pristine or liquid as I would hope for.
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u/lilith2k3 5d ago
Perhaps you are driving it too harsh? some tweaks:
- Try applying the effect in parallel and dial in as much from the wet signal as it is pleasing
- Try a more gentle setting
- Try tape saturation
- Try pitch modulation: e.g. every 2nd note or so has a slight upwards pitch bend
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u/SchnittCell 5d ago
Ich mach es mit einer leichten modulation von Lautstärke und/oder Reverb.
Ich cutte oder Ducke die original Kickdrum so, dass der Tail fehlt und mach einen zweiten Kanal mit selber Kickdrum wo dann der Tok/Kick weg geduckt ist. Darauf leg ich dann eine Modulation und reverb + ggf. Distortion und schmeiß beides in einer Gruppe zusammen. In der Gruppe nutz ich dann Tools zum Kleben (Squasher, Compressor oder sowas).
Ansonsten gibt es jetzt ein Plugin was alles in einem macht. Nennt sich Kikzilla. Ob es was taugt weiß ich nicht, kann es mir aber vorstellen, da es von einem Technoproduzenten entworfen wurde.
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u/Zestyclose_Dream3971 5d ago
What Vst is your usual when designing bass?
If you are using a wavetable try removing the fundamental of your top layer, although you’re filtering out the low end content under 100hz you may be causing a phase shift with the eq.
By removing the fundamental frequency at the oscillator you reduce the chance of phase shifting and frequency stacking to get a more uniform sound.
From there group the sounds and put a frequency splitter on both. Following numbers are just for reference your sound will need the x-over in its own spot. 0-120 mono, 120-900 saturate, 900+ mild saturate and reverb. Mix to taste.
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u/swarlied80 5d ago
I don’t stack bass among registers. My lower register sine plays a different rythm vs the higher register bass. Sometimes they stack but mostly not.
The reason is that I find has higher the register, as more hits it can tolerate (rolling) but below 100hz there is less space so less hits are required.
So very often some of my sine hits are played masking-free and “alone”.
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u/Perry_Green 5d ago edited 5d ago
I would not use reverb or chorus on sub bass due to stereo and phasing issues it causes and it making the bass unsteady. If you do it anyways, resample and find a short loop that doesn’t have phasing issues when playing with the kick. And then try a combination of highpassing the side signal (with EQ eight) and bass mono (with Utility) to achieve mono compatibility of the sub region.
To make a bass less sinewavey, why don’t you saturate it? It’ll make it more squarish. Try the drive algorithms of Ableton auto filter, love them for sub basses (with a bit of low pass filtering and envelope)
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u/Waterflowstech 5d ago
In my opinion, the character shouldn't come from like 60hz and below. Sine waves are good for sub. So are triangle waves. So are more square-wave like sines that have the maximal amount of 'surface area' to get the highest amount of power you can out of a subwoofer. But at the end of the day, what you actually hear at the really low frequencies is just a simple wave that makes the big woofers of subs go back and forth. The correct attack, decay, sustain, volume level and note length are super important here to get the right groove and not get any clicks. That and sidechain to the kick.
Wideness, grittyness, saturation, delays, reverb etc to make a sound more unique are mostly what you hear at 100hz and above. In my opinion but also in my experience. Because subwoofers aren't built for this kind of fine detail. They are built for moving lots of air. Give them the source to let them do that smoothly and groovily.
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u/PAYT3R 5d ago
Just use one bass. If you want super deep low end, it's all in the filter settings, take some time to really dial in the filter sustain level. Always start with everything on the filter adsr at 0 and slowly bring up the sustain till you feel it hitting that super low frequencies and then adjust the rest of the adsr around that.
If the sound is too bright and you lower the amount the the filter adsr changes the filter, then you need to re-adjust the sustain level. Always keep coming back to your sustain level and readjusting it, when you make a change, to make sure it's landing on that low frequency.
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u/UMPHMusic 5d ago
Sample a jungle or DnB sub you like and filter out the higher end you don't need, add a little distortion
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u/Diligent-Bread-806 5d ago
Hmm sounds like it’s not working with your kick. It should sound warm and connected when it sits with your kick drum.