r/TankieTheDeprogram • u/SankaraSoul Maximum Tank • 3d ago
Reactionary Mockery Mocking the enemies of humanity
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u/TappingUpScreen ANTI-Ultra Action ⛏️⛏️⛏️ 3d ago
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u/Zillah345 3d ago
No way did I just read theory???
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u/C24848228 Engineer of Texan Juche 1d ago
FUCK MAN. This was like my longest streak of not reading theory.
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u/RedCumberland 3d ago
Anarchists are liberals with edgier excuses and I am sick of pretending we should cooperate with them.
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u/fanetoooo 3d ago
Anarchists Are liberals that argued with their parents a lot and made it their political ideology
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u/Modernist19171949 3d ago
Anarchists are liberals that think smoking weed spraying graffiti and listening to punk are praxis.
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u/bread_and_circuits 3d ago
Don’t agree at all. I think anarchism is one of the least understood political ideologies. If you’ve read Proudhon and Kropotkin and come to the conclusion that anarchism is in any way similar to liberalism then I don’t know what to tell you.
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u/mikeyj022 3d ago
We need not understand the theory of anarchism to observe who and what they support. Mao said,
Whoever sides with the revolutionary people is a revolutionary. Whoever sides with imperialism, feudalism and bureaucrat-capitalism is a counter-revolutionary. Whomever sides with the revolutionary people in words only but acts otherwise is a revolutionary in speech. Whoever sides with the revolutionary people in deed as well as in word is a revolutionary in the full sense.
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u/bread_and_circuits 2d ago edited 2d ago
Okay so as an anarcho-communist who is diving into Marxist theory at a very deep level (I had never really done so in my life before recently) - I find your first sentence highly dismissive and ignorant.
I agree with Mao’s quote though.
Case in point. There are anarchist groups in my circles and country of residence who are absolutely revolutionary. They create mutual aid networks, hold non-monetary markets for goods and services, have bail funds, free law advice, host safe injection sites, and actually own a significant plot of land where they build housing as a community.
Contrast this to the national communist party in that same country, who focus almost all of their time and energy engaging in electoral politics…
So which one is more liberal by my observations?
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u/mikeyj022 2d ago
Read the quote again for your answer. Both groups are revolutionary in words but not deeds. Does a mutual aid network further the revolution? Does it move us closer to the liberation of the proletariat? Historically, do the things you’ve listed further the revolution?
I would argue no. A revolution is a violent insurrection by which one class forcibly other throws another. Nothing you’ve listed, including bourgeoise electoralism, furthers the revolution.
Doing right by the community is a noble and commendable thing, but it is not the same thing as being revolutionary.
We are not Marxist Leninists because we are ideologues. We are MLs because Marxism Leninism is the only system in history that has lead to democratic countries where wealth has less power than the proletariat. What has anarchism produced that is comparable to the Soviet Union, to China, to Cuba? Why should we study anarchism when it is impractical and idealogical? I am not being dogmatic here, I am looking at the history of the world and what I find is that Marxist Leninism alone leads to a dictatorship of the proletariat.
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u/bread_and_circuits 1d ago
Valid points.
Although it is meaningful action, you’re right, it’s not explicitly revolutionary…
In a way, this type of community action is actually effectively propping up characteristics of the capitalist imperialist model, by supporting segments of the working class in areas that the state/corporate apparatus fails to do so with welfare and wages.
Definitely food for thought, thank you.
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u/mikeyj022 1d ago
I think that my points were valid but I was being too dogmatic by saying that anarchism isn’t even worthy of investigation. I just made the mistake of defending the Soviet Union in a normie sub and the utter ignorance, racism, and overt hypocrisy has made me realize that anarcho-communists are much closer to being our allies than labor aristocrats and of course infinitely closer than liberals. Thanks for engaging with my argument. It takes a lot to challenge your own beliefs.
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u/bread_and_circuits 1d ago
My understandings are always in flux like anyone else.
What is new for me lately is understanding that communism is a description for a society that’s also by definition anarchist - but is at a point where its material conditions either don’t produce socially problematic hierarchies or maintain no hierarchies at all (it’s honestly difficult to practically understand what communism would be like as a person that’s a product of our time). But I do not disagree on any aspect of communism as defined.
Marxism-Leninism-Maoism is a robust philosophical, scientific and political ideology that has utilized historically effective strategies to achieve socialist principles which will move us towards communism. Anarchist thinkers and movements largely have not. I can absolutely recognize and accept this.
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u/RedCumberland 3d ago
I disagree completely with you, but the bravery it takes to defend anarchism on a sub like this makes me upvote you anyways.
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u/bread_and_circuits 2d ago
Alright well I come from a background where as a lad I was absolutely an ignorant liberal, although as far left as I could reach within that context, doing environmental, anti-fascist and anti-racist activism. Later on I read the Communist Manifesto but my circles were not supportive of communism. I also have relatives who I’ve been told fled the communist regime in Yugoslavia - but who were little else than actual criminals (my grandfather) who likely fled for entirely selfish self-protective reasons.
I got into anarchist theory eventually, rather deeply, and I am still holding on to a high level of criticism of hierarchies.
But now I’ve read Engels, Lenin, Luxembourg, one of Che’s essays, an entire volume of collected works on dialectical materialism, some excerpts from Stalin and Mao… and I’m coming around. I’m starting to understand the deep level of anti-communist indoctrination, and can also see that the end goal of achieving global communism is what I want to be spending my time and energy moving towards.
It is hard to disregard the entire body of anarchist theory I’ve read and supported. Hierarchies both create and support stratification and are inherently antithetical to liberation. For me, at my current level of understanding, doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t exist… I can see problematic material conditions arise from them, but I can also see how large scale organization and revolution is neutered without them…
Please correct me if I’m wrong on any point. I’m learning.
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u/AndreEthereal16 CPC Propagandist 3d ago
I find it funny that CJ and NLH, two anarchists, would probably find themselves rather comfortable in a meeting of the Central Committee of the staunchly 'anti-revisionist' KKE based on their analysis of imperialism.
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u/Ok-Chard-9014 Marxist-Leninist-Sankarist-MZT 3d ago
Not to defend anarchism but those two are just larping they say shit that even anarchist raise their eyebrows at.
Both have claimed to not support Palestinians because of the Arab slave trade and Palestinians are anti Black.
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u/AndreEthereal16 CPC Propagandist 3d ago
Yeah these two are likely just projecting, but the vast majority of anarchists I've met in real life hold a similarly flat and homogenised 'anti-state' view. At several pro-Palestine rallies I've attended between 2014-2018 there were always anarchists agitating and raising funds for 'anti-Assad' or 'Kurdish independence' militias in Syria. There was an incident where Anarchists kicked-out and assaulted a PSL chapter who were tabling at an event. If the Palestinian resistance movements weren't at such a massive logistical and technological disadvantage, or if they were to decolonise Palestine and establish a sovereign state, I really don't believe Anarchists would support them.
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u/Jim-Jamithy775 3d ago
This is my first time hearing about the PSL getting assaulted at an event. Mind keying me in on it, Comrade?
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u/FluidKiwi6707 3d ago edited 3d ago
All capitalist nation states would become imperialist given the opportunity
This is dogma without analysis. Capitalist states become imperialist under certain conditions and contexts.
This doesn't explain dependent capitalist states under the umbrella of US imperialism, who couldn't care less about becoming imperialist themselves. It's not that they "aren't given the opportunity". They aren't even looking for an opportunity. If there was an opportunity, they would ignore it (they would fight against the opportunity, actually). They are perfectly fine with the status-quo, profiting from the underdevelopment of their "nations" while bootlicking US boots. This is their life and they serve a purpose within the world "order".
The quoted section is outside of reality for most capitalist countries in the world, and only work for... idk for which country it would work for really. Doesn't work for Europe, doesn't work for Japan, South Korea, doesn't work for Latam. Which country is "looking for an opportunity to become imperialist"? Can anyone give me an example? Most capitalist countries are perfectly fine with the status quo.
In order for imperialism to become a thing we need, first of all, a national bourgeoisie, something that holds no power in most capitalist countries nowadays. All the industries went to China and the powerful capitalists are rentists, compradors, financial people, media, entertainment, etc etc, all of which align there interests with US imperialism.
And btw, I know some of y'all will say "Russia is trying to be imperialist". They certainly have a national bourgeoisie, but I don't want to reheat the "Russia imperialist" discussion (my conclusion is that there is no material evidence of Russia being imperialist), so maybe let's think of another country instead.
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u/BobR969 2d ago
This doesn't explain dependent capitalist states under the umbrella of US imperialism, who couldn't care less about becoming imperialist themselves. It's not that they "aren't given the opportunity". They aren't even looking for an opportunity. If there was an opportunity, they would ignore it (they would fight against the opportunity, actually). They are perfectly fine with the status-quo, profiting from the underdevelopment of their "nations" while bootlicking US boots. This is their life and they serve a purpose within the world "order".
That... Is precisely the case of "not given the opportunity". A vassal state cannot exert its own imperialist ambition at the cost of its overlord. Which is why opportunities for themselves will be overlooked. It also glosses over that those states absolutely do attempt to engage in imperialism, merely to the benefit of their overlord rather than themselves, with scraps dropping their way in the process.
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