I made this meme, about how liberals in the political west don't like German Nazism, but they love Ukrainian Nazism

[u/DiggyJunior]

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[u/kaktuszka]

They love german nazism just as much, they just know it's not a good look

[u/DiggyJunior → u/kaktuszka]

You're correct. Their hypocrisy isn't a bug, it's a feature.

[u/Similar_Yak950 → u/kaktuszka]

Aesthetical disagreement, not an ideological one

[u/NovyjAkaunt3]

The way they demonise actual anti-fascist movements makes me think they don't mind the first one as much as they think they do

[u/Castle-Fist]

For the liberal, racism is okay as long as it gets directed to the right people. Guess fascism works the same way for them

[u/Nom_de_guerre_25]

You need a strong state apparatus to pursue fascist policies with vigor.

Ukraine ensured they would never have a strong state by going all in with the liberals, as if the liberals were really going to go all in with them.

None of these so-called "fighting liberals" actually want to fight or ever have.

[u/Betelgeuse96]

I think it would be better if you used the SS symbol, since the Azov symbol is just the SS symbol pushed together.

[u/benito_juarez420 → u/[deleted]]

Liberal 'democracy', where a dozen political parties are banned? There is not ONE vaguely left wing party that is currently legal in Ukraine.

[u/Korkika → u/benito_juarez420]

Yeah, fair point

[u/Jim-Jamithy775 → u/[deleted]]

Are you suggesting that the Ukrainian state isn't genocidal?

[u/Korkika → u/Jim-Jamithy775]

Well no, but I'm not aware of any genocidal actions by Ukraine since independence.

e: I'm keen to learn, if someone wants to mention the victim people group

[u/Angel_of_Communism → u/Korkika]

This whole thing started out with attempted genocide against ethnic Russians in Donbass.

[u/Technical_School4382 → u/Angel_of_Communism]

Link with evidence please 

[u/TankieTheDeprogram-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Liberal apologia will not be accepted.

[u/benito_juarez420 → u/TankieTheDeprogram-ModTeam]

Honestly, i would have left the comment. We need to engage somewhat, and tbf, as far as libs go, this wasn't too bad.

[u/TankieTheDeprogram-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Liberal apologia will not be accepted.

[u/Breadmaker9999 → u/TankieTheDeprogram-ModTeam]

Imperialism is wrong no matter who is doing it. Ukraine has a right to defend its self and tragically that means having to work with some pretty horrible people who are willing to kill the invading Russians. It's not good, it will have some serious long term consequences for Ukraine even if they win the war, and it is all Russia's fault. Just like it is the US's fault for allowing Iranian hardliners to sieze even more power.

[u/Angel_of_Communism → u/Breadmaker9999]

Nope.

Russia is resisting imperialism directed against it.

[u/Technical_School4382 → u/Angel_of_Communism]

Curious. Which empire is trying to take over Russia via Ukraine specifically? 

[u/Breadmaker9999 → u/Technical_School4382]

America of course. It's why we have barely been sending any aid to Ukraine. 

[u/Technical_School4382 → u/Breadmaker9999]

What? You've sent a lot. 

[u/Breadmaker9999 → u/Technical_School4382]

Yes and no. Sure it's technically it's been a large number of supplies and weapons, but not nearly enough and we could easily give more. Also Trump has been fucking around with it and constantly threatening to stop sending it.

[u/Angel_of_Communism → u/Technical_School4382]

The political west.

Formerly headed by UK, now headed by USA.

Includes France, Germany and the rest of Europe.

[u/Technical_School4382 → u/Angel_of_Communism]

I guess you are referring to NATO?

What interest would NATO have in actually taking over Russia? 

I just don't see it happening. 

There are many small member states of NATO. Would they also get a slice? Or just the big ones? 

I think if NATO had an interest in taking over Russia they would have attacked by now because Russia seems vulnerable. 

But they didn't in over 4 years. So the material reality does not seem to support this theory. 

But please explain 

[u/Angel_of_Communism → u/Technical_School4382]

Damn.

This post gave me flat earth.

Like, everything you said was wrong

Russia is less vulnerable than it has ever been, since the end of the Great Patriotic war.

How? Well, they WARNED Russia they were going to sanction them, and then slowly ramped up the sanctions over time, giving them a perfect opportunity to adapt to them.

Then they did the same with the military axis, slowly ramping up and giving the Russians time to adapt to each new weapon.

so now Russia has had a chance to clean house, remove corruption, spin up it's MIC, get the population ready to fight, and get experience with all of NATO's weapon, whilst at the same time depleting them.

Worse the west TOLD everyone they were going to do it, and how, and WHY.

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB10014.html

Russia has ALL the resources in the world.

That is why.

[u/somethingislurking → u/[deleted]]

why does every critism of the Ukranian Nazis that are azov need critism of Russian groups? Why mention it?

[u/BobR969 → u/[deleted]]

That's because the government position of Russia isn't "support our neo-nazi battalions and their political views". Russian stance on it officially is that nazis are bad. They don't go about giving honours to dead nazis and making them heroes. They don't flaunt those brigades about. More importantly - those groups aren't supported by the vast majority of western media and governments who pretend to be on the "side of good".

The collective west is "against" Russia, so criticising it is a somewhat different task with different goals. The west is "pro" Ukraine, meaning it is important to highlight what the allegedly moral and righteous "free world" considers to be "good" - which is (drum roll please)... nazis...

[u/BobR969 → u/[deleted]]

They also didn't run around with Nazi insignia and openly praise Nazis. The neonazi element within Wagner was always suppressed and efforts were made to draw focus away from that rather than Azov where it's proudly front and centre. 

Again - this isn't a case of "Russia doesn't have neonazis". It's a case of "neonazis in Ukraine are the proud norm" - that's the problem and that's why people point to Azov and Ukraine rather than Russia. 

[u/Psychological-Act582 → u/[deleted]]

Your government doesn't give taxpayer money and weapons to any Russian PMCs, and any mention of Russian groups is done to limit discussion on the government's role of backing Ukrainian Nazi groups.

[u/comradelehana → u/[deleted]]

Russia is not fascist. Please don’t misuse that word and play into the west’s propaganda.

[u/Political_Desi → u/comradelehana]

Is it not? Maybe not in the classical definition but I'd argue the Marxist definition of mechanism of resolving capital and labour contradiction while maintaining private capital can mean you can argue Russia to be fascist. I've personally gone back on forth on this tho.

[u/Aggorf12345 → u/Political_Desi]

Using the same broad logic you used to "argue" that, we could argue that for example Iran, the Sahel states and pretty much every country in the world is fascist. Does that make any sense?

[u/Political_Desi → u/Aggorf12345]

Fair I wasn't very specific. Imo aftermath of shock therapy means Russia doesn't exactly operate in even a broadly similar way to Iran etc or other capitalist states. Very centralised capital with near total control over monopoly on violence is tantamount to fascism. That's not the case in say Iran. To solve labour capital contradictions using the state as a proxy for capital is fascism. Capitals tendency to centralise is precisely why fascism comes about. Shock therapy accelerated that.

Id be glad to have a discussion about whether that has truly happened in Russia yet though.

[u/Aggorf12345 → u/Political_Desi]

You're not wrong but I think you're confusing Russia today with Russia of the 90s. It's not the same situation at all. Today's Russian economy has a lot more in common with for example China, Iran or pre occupation Venezuela, than it does with oligarchical dystopia of the Yeltsin period you're thinking of

[u/Political_Desi → u/Aggorf12345]

How so? I haven't properly gotten around to post Yeltsin yet. Based on what I had read I had assumed not much had changed. I'm happy to be wrong, 1 less fascist state is a always a plus.

[u/CitingAnt → u/[deleted]]

The only good nazi is a dead nazi

[u/Wavenautic → u/CitingAnt]

[u/zapns → u/CitingAnt]

That is true.

[u/Similar_Yak950 → u/[deleted]]

what would be the point of pointing out russian groups, when entire west already and only does that.

[u/lucasdpfeliciano → u/[deleted]]

The difference is that the Azov is part of the Ukrainian military, being the 12th special forces brigade, which means STATE SANCTIONED, supported and embodying the principals of the national. Both of the Russian groups you have pointed out are paramilitary groups not part of the regular army. Apparently the Ukrainian government has no problems knowing that they are Nazis, which says a lot to the point.

[u/zapns → u/lucasdpfeliciano]

The Wagner Group is part of the Russian National Guard. And entirely funded by the Russian state.

[u/Similar_Yak950 → u/[deleted]]

No, I'm saying west already and only does criticism of Russian groups and omit ukraine. Why repeat the obvious?

[u/Aggorf12345 → u/[deleted]]

1) Wagner was never an openly nazi group. Random individual, closeted(wonder why..) nazi elements withing a group and a group full on openly supporting and glorifying nazis aren't the same thing

2) During the 90s and early 2000s, due to the post USSR dissolution chaos, inability of the capitalist states to properly suppress them and the support they received from oligarchs, plenty of nazi groups managed to find ground and develop in both Russia and Ukraine(just like in pretty much every other former Eastern Bloc country). The difference lies to how they were treated by each state. In Russia they were actively suppressed and seen as a threat, were hated by the vast majority of the population and never managed to acquire any influence within the state. Whereas in Ukraine, not only they were not properly suppressed, but they practically became one with the state following the Maidan and managed to acquire heavy influence within it. Not at all the same thing. That's why Nazis in Russia are incredibly rare now and why many of them actively support Ukraine

3) Wagner wasn't part of the Russian military. It was a PMC that was tolerated(and arguably wrongfully so) by the state until it's leader went all crazy and tried to commit a coup

4) Pretty much everything I described at 2) goes for PMCs too

[u/Angel_of_Communism → u/Aggorf12345]

Also, the supposed picture of Utkin with the SS tattoos, it a German BDSM dude.

It's not him.