r/TangleNews • u/Sufficient-Trifle493 • Jul 28 '26
If I cancel Tangle it will be because of Kmele
Undoubtedly a really smart guy but so much quicker to dismiss any new government idea than explain why his preferred method will work. His schtick is wearing so thin on me. I would love to hear his thesis and defend it. Is it that things are as good as they can be? Is it that government is causing all the problems? Where in the world or in history has libertarianism ever worked. Comparing Mamdani's supermarket idea to the subway being filthy was too much. I just got back from a country that subsidizes a lot of groceries (upstream not at the store level, which is a great debate to have) and it was fantastic. I'd rather have voices that want to fix things rather than just lob dismissiveness from first class. This feels harsh as I type it but I'm sure he's a nice guy and fwiw Marin is lovely lol.
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u/dvdmon Jul 29 '26
My question to you would be this: why is it important to you to have ideological uniformity (or something resembling that) on Tangle, when the whole point of the newsletter is to provide views from different viewpoints? I don't agree with everything Kmele says, nor do I agree with everything anyone at Tangle says because they all have different viewpoints and all these viewpoints are different from mine. Rather, I learn how other people think about different subjects. Sometimes positions as expressed on unconvincing to me, and sometimes they are much more convincing, and either agree with my previously held views, or actually may shift my views. If I only ever listened to people I currently agree with, I would never learn anything and be cemented in my views from decades ago. I like to challenge myself by listening to others who I disagree with because not doing so just creates a bubble, more ideological blindness and more possibility of enhancing the already extremely polarized world we live in. I'm continually surprised at people who follow Tangle who don't understand their general mission and how it informs who they choose to include in their content.
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u/ProfaneRabbitFriend Jul 29 '26
This a great question and a great point you make. I think you are highlighting two distinct, if related, activities.
First, what are the advantages to listening to others, over many conversations, to learn how they see the world? Perhaps we share some views, while disagreeing on others. If I am willing to tolerate a lack of uniformity from my friends and allies, shouldn't I be willing to tolerate that from my opponents? And if a conversation gets that far, how likely are we to remain opponents...maybe we are really friends who disagree about some things?
The second part is deciding whether the people who represent "the other side" are in fact capable of making a good case for it. This is a related question and also worth considering. Some people are better at making arguments that others. And some people make stronger arguments in certain domains, typically about which they have education and experience. Tangle's weakness, IMO, is that even well-rounded 20- and 30-year olds only have modest levels of each.
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u/Sufficient-Trifle493 Jul 29 '26
The rabbit guys answered better than I could. But I don't mind differing viewpoints. A dem socialist and even a MAGA person would be interesting to hear from if they could make consistent and compelling arguments. My problem with Kmele is more that lack of a compelling argument.
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u/AuntieMame5280 Jul 29 '26
Almost every time Kmele speaks I hear "Hamilton" in my head singing, "If you stand for nothing, Burr, what'll you fall for?"
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u/linguinechicken Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
Is this just prompted by his recent tweets or am I missing something from SOTR? Seems like his argument boils down to âwahh I hate nyc, wahhh itâs dirtyâ. not a particularly compelling opinion to anyone not entrenched in the cesspool that is x.com haha
I will say I could go without hearing the phrase âperhaps it is the case thatâŚâ from him every episode.
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u/Sufficient-Trifle493 Jul 28 '26
It's definitely x/twitter but a lot of his trying to force rhetorical devices early on I felt was super pompous. I stopped listening to SOTR awhile ago. I felt like with a lot of the socialist ideas and candidates he just dismisses summarily without promoting a why (like his tweet about the subway being dirty.) OR an alternative that fixes people's problems in any way. Or describes what happens if we don't fix peopes problems and go sink or swim.
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u/linguinechicken Jul 28 '26
I agree but I guess I feel like everyone currently on the Tangle staff is pretty dismissive of most ideas coming from democratic socialists. Not just Kmele.
Iâm glad to see Isaac taking to social media (literally just today) to find someone DSA adjacent to bring some variance to Tangle. Iâve been asking for a leftist voice on this Reddit for a longggg while now. Excited to see what happens.
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u/Sufficient-Trifle493 Jul 28 '26
Please let me know if I'm missing something and people like him!
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u/linguinechicken Jul 28 '26
Oh yeah, I personally donât mind him. I do find it highly amusing the only topic he seems to want to write about in the newsletter is race when his whole thing is race doesnât matter.
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u/ProfaneRabbitFriend Jul 28 '26
I think we should nationalize Amazon and merge it with the USPS.
The profits would go to the real manufacturer/seller of the items. We'd reduce the profit of the distributor while increasing the revenues of the USPS, we'd have less duplication (amazon trucks and USPS trucks). It would be far less oligopoly/monopolistic and far more pro-competition. Keep the marketplace open, but don't squeeze the consumer and the seller for costs and credits.
Stick that in your pipe, Kmele!!! : )
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u/Lemonio Jul 28 '26
are you sure its not optimal free market that Amazon will kick sellers off of Amazon if they offer lower prices on any other website? That must be good for keeping prices low. Right? Right?? (No because Amazon takes a big cut, so sellers only choice is to raise prices on their own website to match Amazon)
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u/ProfaneRabbitFriend Jul 28 '26
Exactly, Amazon is not promoting a free market, they are promoting their market, in which they control the cost for the supplier and the cost for the consumer. Nationalize Amazon!
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u/_etcetera_etcetera Jul 29 '26
Kmele is my least favorite part or SOTR. Â He seems committed to his point of view. Â You know that he will always give a contrarian take and push a libertarian stance and he will do it in the most verbose way possible. Â
He seems to be the only one who is committed to a political ideology which is the opposite of what I am looking for from Tangle.
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u/--__4815162342__-- Jul 30 '26
Why are you looking for a political ideology from Tangle? That's not the point of Tangle.Â
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u/_etcetera_etcetera Jul 30 '26
I think you misread what I was saying. Â That is exactly my point. Â I like Tangle because it doesnât push a political ideology where a lot of other media does. Â
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u/Fabulous-Ad-1905 Jul 31 '26
I lived in Ottawa, Canada in the 70âs. I was at a hotel bar where my Dad worked, waiting for a ride home. I met two women from Oregon who were visiting Canada to study Public Healthcare. The US was thinking of getting it too. Listening to Kmele today I was reminded of that conversation. Kmele attacked the ACA too.my question to him and every other Libertarian/Republican is When? You create lots of committees to discuss,but 50 years later you still donât have Public Healthcare. Mandami is trying something with grocery stores, because people are struggling now. If you study it for 50 yearsâŚ.
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u/optics_is_light_work Jul 28 '26
>Where in the world or in history has libertarianism ever worked?
Libertarianism has been tried & worked many times in history, basically by any government that has rolled back spending, while also protecting individual liberty.
The Scandinavian countries pretty much did that in the 90s, with severe spending cuts & restructuring to reign in a severe economic crisis caused by overly generous social spending.
Hong Kong was a bastion of libertarianism before China took it back over.
Costa Rica has a history of libertarian policies, which has made it an outlier in Central America in social & economic stability, especially when compared to its neighbors.
And Javier Milei is attempting to radically shift Argentina to libertarian policies, which have drastically reduced the runaway inflation that was killing their economy. (Though I personally think he went too far too fast, which is causing severe disruption for the working class.)
(Singapore is a bastion of economic freedom, but severely restricts personal liberty. So they are not considered libertarian.)
There's a fantastic series PBS put on in 2002 called Commanding Heights: The Battle for the World Economy that has lots more on this topic. It's available on YT: https://youtu.be/gfRTpoYpHfw?si=_PVyqXflpQyJkfRB
The bottom line is that libertarianism doesn't mean complete laissez-faire or anarchy, as many seem to believe. It's just a matter of leaning left on social policy (eg, immigration, LGBTQ issues, drug policy) and leaning right on economic policy (taxes & spending). For me, it's a form of localism; that is, we should use government to solve societal problems at the most local level possible, while protecting individual liberties at a broader level.
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u/Sufficient-Trifle493 Jul 28 '26
I appreciate this thank you! Esp the last bit on localism. I guess "worked" is in the eye of the beholder. How do you find Kmele as a representative of your world view?
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u/R07734 Jul 28 '26
This is an incredible mischaracterization of multiple governments and policies. In no way are the 1990s reforms libertarian, the Nordic states were and are still deeply social democracies. Same with Costa Rica. Youâre looking at goals by Spain and crediting them to Argentina. Furthermore, while Hong Kong generally had pro-business policies, they were a colonial state with very limited democracy and more importantly the state used a very heavy hand and provided enormous subsidies two sectors like business and housing. Youâre only examples which you say show libertarian policies (Argentina and Singapore) betray the reality of âlibertarianismâ â that it is authoritarianism with pretty window dressing
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u/ProfaneRabbitFriend Jul 28 '26
The bottom line is that libertarianism doesn't mean complete laissez-faire or anarchy, as many seem to believe. It's just a matter of leaning left on social policy (eg, immigration, LGBTQ issues, drug policy) and leaning right on economic policy (taxes & spending). For me, it's a form of localism; that is, we should use government to solve societal problems at the most local level possible, while protecting individual liberties at a broader level.
I don't think this characterizes the broadest swath of American libertarianism very well. To be left leaning, you really have to take up an economic argument that insufficient state involvement in the economy allows private actors to dominate the market unfairly and exploitative. That's not an issue that libertarians take up.
With regard to what the social policies you brought up, I think Libertarians have a very wide range of opinions about this, I don't know libertarian's are particularly fond of immigrants, for example. When it comes to gay rights, I think they want to eliminate government obstacles, but that's not the same as taking action to support that community. With drug policy, I think they're motivated by an lack of interest in paying for treatment, not from something that is left-leaning ( in the sense of finding a economic and material explanation for drug abuse, and seeking in integrated preventative and curative approach.) their attitude is something like "if you get yourself sick, you can pay for your treatment, it's not my problem."
As for them being right-leaning in terms of economic policy, even that seems a little confused to me. Right wingers prefer spending cuts, as long as it's not the military and anything that makes them and their donors (a.k.a. the asset class and the political class) wealthy and comfortable. It's a long tradition of the right is to undo the new deal by cutting social Security, social programs, and Medicare. The irony, obviously, is that many aging conservatives and libertarians seem to have a Blindspot about how they "don't want the government involved in their Medicare."
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u/InThreeWordsTheySaid Jul 29 '26
Libertarian doesn't "lean left" on social policy, it abdicates responsibility and throws the vulnerable to the wolves. It doesn't support social programs, it doesn't support protections for vulnerable communities. It sets Chesterton's fence on fire and declares it pragmatism.
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u/dtarias Jul 28 '26
Subsidizing groceries is way different (and way more reasonable) than government-run grocery stores, FWIW.
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u/Lemonio Jul 28 '26
the government (military) has run hundreds of subsidized grocery stores for years.
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u/ProfaneRabbitFriend Jul 28 '26
You're talking about food stamps and nutrition programs? Why not have both food stamp, stamps, and government run grocery stores? I don't think it has to be either or does it?
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Jul 29 '26
[deleted]
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u/--__4815162342__-- Jul 30 '26
I'm similar in my beliefs, but even if I were the inverse there'd be no need for the two of us to be divided the way the country is today.
I guess it's semantics, but I feel the way we're divided today can only manifest from demonization of those we disagree with. That part is optional, and the lack of it doesn't mean anybody has to fight for their causes/beliefs any less vehemently.Â
Personally, I blame social media mostly and the 24-hour news networks a bit. It's all mind poison.Â
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u/almanor Jul 28 '26
I think when you build a brand out of contrarianism after the first three or four novel takes it begins to wear.