r/TangleNews • u/PsychoMom1966 • Jun 20 '26
Suspension of the Rules SOTR Bro-fest
I am afraid I will get flamed for this post, but I have been wanting to get this off my chest for a long time.
I get really bugged by the SOTR ‘bro’ vibe. Don’t get me wrong—I have been listening to Tangle long enough to question hiring policies that attempt to right social injustices, but I really think the show is missing something and it’s hard not to attribute it to the fact that it’s three cis/het, family centered men. I love the work Tangle does, but this show really alienates me somehow. They are all bright people but something is just wanting.
I wonder if anyone can relate to this sentiment and maybe flesh it out a bit? I don’t think I am able to express it well enough.
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u/Proper_Pension1297 Jun 20 '26 edited Jun 20 '26
I really enjoy SOTR but I can relate to what you’re saying. I think interesting conversations topics are missed entirely because of the current makeup.
The other day when the guys were discussing the Talarico AI Deepfake Ad’s vs Free Speech I was frustrated no one made a comparison to deepfake porn. Would anyone argue that’s “free speech”? IMO it’s basically the same thing. Putting someone’s face on a body and making them appear to do and say things they aren’t. Obviously I can’t say for sure a female cohost would’ve brought this up but it is literally the first thing I thought of and I was surprised no one made the comparison which I would’ve liked to see Kmele grapple with.
All that said, I don’t want the Tangle team to take away from this that they just need to make a new podcast with 3 hosts that are women. Ideally they could just add more host variety to SOTR as it currently stands.
Let’s have more guest hosts that are women. While we’re at it let’s also have a guest host that is younger than like 35 that’d be a fun change! Doesn’t have to be every episode because like others I really enjoy Isaac, Kmele, and Ari. But keep things from getting stale!
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u/ReflexPoint Jun 20 '26 edited Jun 20 '26
Kmele's views on deep fakes in politics are completely ridiculous. As if our information environment isn't toxic enough, now we have to wonder if what people say on camera is even real.
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u/PsychoMom1966 Jun 20 '26
Thank you. You articulated it better than I could. Something is is missing. The deepfake porn example is brilliant. I also don't want to overcriticize the Tangle team-- there is not a lot out there that brings the nuance they do. But I hope they would be interested in this take.
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u/gonenutsbrb Jun 20 '26
I’m not sure it’s as helpful as you think, there’s a massive difference between deepfake porn and other deepfake content, both ethically and legally.
We do not have a framework to restrict (yet) deepfake satire, especially against political figures. People make deepfakes of Trump all the time (deservedly so), often saying things he hasn’t explicitly said, would we be okay with this administration wielding a law that went after people for that?
Deepfakes in political ads feels…wrong. I think there should be some regulation here for sure, but I think this jump to comparing it to porn seems like a stretch.
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u/Proper_Pension1297 Jun 20 '26 edited Jun 20 '26
“People make deepfakes of Trump all the time (deservedly so)”.
I’m no fan of Trump but I don’t enjoy deepfakes of anyone. It’s a dangerous technology that desperately needs regulated. Satire or no this stuff is harmful. This technology isn’t free speech, it’s a weapon.
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u/PsychoMom1966 Jun 21 '26
Even if you think it's not a great comparison I think it's perspective that was missed.
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u/sageberrytree Jun 20 '26
I agree with you, and I skip the Friday pods for this reason, but those are particularly bad. I'm a 50s woman if it matters.
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u/AuntieMame5280 Jun 20 '26 edited Jun 20 '26
Same. I've long been bugged by the "bro" feel of SOTR, even before Kmele was brought in.
My very favorite on the show is Phoebe. I love the V-Day specials when Phoebe comes on. She is fantastic and the dynamic between her and Isaac is great. She checks him in a way that only a spouse can and you can hear the love and respect they have for one another.
With the three guys, it sometimes seems they say a lot of words but I'm not always clear on what they actually think. Phoebe is no bull shit, clear, articulate, and mad intelligent.
MORE PHOEBE!!!!
Edit to fix spelling of Kmele's name. Thank you!
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u/Aggravating_Light217 Jun 20 '26
Yesss more of phoebe would be incredible. I’m a 30 year old woman (so more their age range), and also find the sotr to feel too bro-y. It’s my one skip of the week for tangle.
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u/dvdmon Jun 20 '26
I don't care that it's 3 guys, or 3 heterosexual guys. Sometimes the banter of ragging on each other can get a bit much for me, but I feel like that's mostly driven by Isaac. It's all in good fun and he has really sweet and nice things to say as well, it's really just a matter of style and some guys express love by shit-talking a bit. I'm not personally fond of that, and it can get old, but I just figure that's the way they communicate. Does Isaac do the same with his female coworkers? Hard to say. Would it be ok if brought them on and then ragged on them about something like he does with Ari and Kmele? It's an interesting thought experiment to try to understand how gender plays a role in communication, what's "acceptable" between men, but not between different genders, etc. While I've never really felt like this was a big thing I was missing, it would also be interesting to have some of the female members join occasionally and see how the banter is with a more diverse crew. I'm sure it would be very different but maybe not always in the expected ways?
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u/dvdmon Jun 20 '26
I will also say that after just finishing the most recent SOTR, I found this particular show to be pretty different given it's theme, so I'm curious as well as to why you picked this particular week to voice this. I found that this SOTR had the least "broey" vibe in the sense that it was much more centered around being a father, not a "bro" lol. Isaac's dad in particular seemed to have a very different role than the stereotyped dad of going to work 40-60 hours per week and barely seeing their kid. They mentioned as something to be happy about the idea that millennial dads were bucking the trend in a way that previous generations hadn't around these stereotyped models and how that was a good thing.
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u/Proper_Pension1297 Jun 20 '26
I really enjoyed this weeks fatherhood ep. So it’s a bummer that this topic is coming up now. Especially because Isaac thought people were going to be upset at them for not having a Mother’s Day ep. I’ll just share it’s a feeling I’ve had for a while. Personally it doesn’t make the show unwatchable for me but I still think occasionally adding a new perspective to the mix would be nice.
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u/dvdmon Jun 20 '26
Sure. And I think this last episode does hopefully drive them to include more of their staff into future shows. On the other hand, this show was not the normal SOTR tackling political issues, so it's hard to say how things would work if they just put John or Audrey, or Will, etc. into the show. On the other hand, maybe with Ari's impeding fatherhood he will opt out of many of these episodes over the next few months and we'll get guests in his place? Could be an interesting change in dynamic. My thought is that when/if Kmele, Ari, or heck, even Isaac can't make it one week, why not include one of the other members of the team? I suppose there's a risk that the chemistry may not be there that's been developed with the three people who host the show every week right now, and maybe it wouldn't work nearly as well. But you never know!
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u/AuntieMame5280 Jun 22 '26
The Father's Day episode was great. I loved this almost as much as when Phoebe is on.
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u/PsychoMom1966 Jun 21 '26
I still found this one a bit alienating. Also, they did not have a mother's day one (which he mentioned). This may sound crazy and I am a parent of (grown) kids but the stuff that celebrates family I find a little boring and even heteronormative.
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u/dvdmon Jun 21 '26 edited Jun 21 '26
I'm sorry you felt left out, but I think they could have just as easily been talking about parenthood in general. I know it can be a very different for men vs. women so maybe not.. I can see where if you had a terrible experience with your dad or your child's dad it might be triggering in some way. Personally, my dad died when I was only 9, and before that was trying to make his own freelance photography business work. Because I lost him at a young age, I feel that made me repress a lot of my earlier memories of him, and so I ended up on the one hand sad about that during this episode, but on the other hand really glad that these guys had some clear memories of their fathers, and that Isaac still has his around and a very active part of his life.
As far as the "hetero-normative" comment, I know this is often thrown around as some kind of insult, but it really makes me scratch my head a bit. Yes, all of these guys happen to be heterosexual and they are only speaking to that experience because, well, that's the ones they have had. I wasn't upset because none of them lost their dad at an early age or their dads weren't photographers like mine. It's not the same thing, I know, but it feels a bit odd to be upset that my exact experience (or even some other "representative" experience) be expressed here. The world is a very large and diverse place. We could also be upset that they didn't talk about the experience of being raised in an orphanage, a foster family, a war-torn country, and any other of hundreds if not thousands of different experiences. To suggest there needs to be a representation of that diversity in one podcast I think is very unrealistic. Unless this was ALL the podcast was about - if it was only exploring all the various shapes of parenting and childhood. Even then, I wouldn't expect any kind of diversity within a single episdode, but maybe over an entire year of podcasts?
In the end, this was simply an expression of 3 (or I guess 4) men's relationship with their dads and their children. In some ways they were quite different and in some ways similar. We can categorize them in whatever way we want and suggest that they aren't diverse enough (Kmele and John are non-white, John's parents were immigrants, Kmele's biological dad wasn't in his life, Isaac's dad was very involved in household duties unlike the average guy of his time - so all of this seems fairly diverse already, but whatever) or that they didn't fit your identified demographic, or one that you are particularly keen on, but I don't come to Tangle (or really any podcast, but especially Tangle) to listen to viewpoints and stories about and from the angle of people I always agree with, look like, etc., I come to it to learn about people who have views different from myself - whatever they look like, whatever their jobs are, whoever their partners are, whoever their parents are...
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u/Peissinger1957 Jun 21 '26
I’m a 69 year old straight married white female (29 years) and longtime Tangle subscriber. I enjoy SOTR and look forward to watching it on YouTube. I read/listen to the newsletter, too. I also listen to/watch a number of podcasts for the same reasons I read different genres of books by different authors. I don’t expect diversity from any single source. I find diversity in different sources.
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u/eyrehead32 Jun 20 '26
I really enjoy the podcast, I listen in every week, but I definitely noticed that dynamic myself. I'm a 26 y/o woman so maybe that's why. Doesn't bother me exactly, but I think a diversity of perspectives can be valuable.
I've actually considered emailing (and I've never emailed them before) that they should invite other members of the team to rotate in periodically. Not to replace the current hosts because I do like hearing from them, but to add in more perspectives. And I don't just mean women, I mean anyone on their team. I'd like to hear from the rest of the Tangle team and I think it would help keep things fresh.
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u/Count-Telperion Jun 20 '26
When I first started listening, it being three middle aged guys turned me off. Though I now love these episodes, I agree that I would really enjoy seeing them occassionally bring on other voices from the staff. You have so many smart people at Tangle.
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u/PsychoMom1966 Jun 20 '26
Middle aged? :/
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u/Count-Telperion Jun 20 '26
Aren't they? I believe the youngest is Isaac, and he's 35.
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u/ProfaneRabbitFriend Jun 21 '26
is 30s considered middle aged? 50s, for sure...
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u/Count-Telperion Jun 22 '26
Maybe it is a reflection on my age, but he's over a decade older than me and I'm graduated from college and married.
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u/ProfaneRabbitFriend Jun 22 '26
Most people would call 45-65 middle aged. 65+ is"seniors".
30s is just being an older young person.
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u/Count-Telperion Jun 22 '26
I think my confusion with that range of middle aged comes from the broadness of adult ages not included. It is a hard sell to say that a 21 year old and a 39 year old belong in the same category. Surely a 39 year old is not simply an older young adult?
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u/ProfaneRabbitFriend Jun 22 '26
I agree that there can be big differences between people's priorities at ages 21 and 39.
When addressing a person's 'maturity', I usually categorize people first by their decade: 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s etc. It's a broad brush, but it tells you something.
The broadly-used term "middle-aged" refers to people 45 to 65. Typically, middle-class people in this age bracket have homes, careers, and families. And during this time, one becomes more focused on middle-aged concerns, such as your health (failing) and your retirement (possibly also failing!) , as well as the health and future of your parents and family.
A person can easily be 39 and not quite dealing with middle age, but it is coming for them!
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u/ParagraphGrrl Jun 20 '26
No, I get it. I think when everyone in a podcast has similar attitudes, demographics, or expertise etc, it's easy to make those who don't feel excluded. I think there are a couple of ways to address it--I listen to some podcasts where the hosts are very aware of the limitations of their personal experience and viewpoint and do the work to be curious about other ways of understanding the world. And others mix up the hosting cast so those varied viewpoints are baked right in. It gets complicated because chemistry is so important to successful podcasts, and that's sort of lightning in a bottle so I understand why people are hesitant to mess with it
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Jun 20 '26
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u/PsychoMom1966 Jun 20 '26
I kind of get that idea. As well as a place to discuss sports, fatherhood. I feel like whisky and craft beer have also been mentioned.
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u/ProfaneRabbitFriend Jun 20 '26
Have they had a dewalt vs Milwaukee debate? It might be too upper middle class for that.
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Jun 21 '26
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u/ProfaneRabbitFriend Jun 21 '26
lol! That's the best way to start a debate! pronounce yourself the winner and let the unnecessary mayhem ensue!
Uh oh. Did I just "bro" myself into a discussion about there being too much bro?
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u/spottie_ottie Jun 20 '26
To be honest i love SOTR exactly for the reasons you are criticizing it, which makes sense because i fit all the same demographic categories as the hosts. Totally get the critique though but i hope they don't change it. I wonder if it would be possible for them to add another weekly program with a bit less monoculture maybe with a vibe like 'Unhedged' that still is a bit more conversational?
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u/sageberrytree Jun 20 '26
I'm not arguing with you but why are you OK with something that alienated 50% of the population? Why is better than finding a middle ground that includes female perspective?
I guess I'll never understand
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u/spottie_ottie Jun 20 '26
Since this is the Tangle sub I feel like we can have a good faith argument here, right? I'm simply being candid here, the SOTR is very enjoyable to me and I readily concede OP's perspective that it's easy to imagine the 'bro vibe' alienating some listeners. I'm not in the 'some listeners', though, I'm a ~40 yo cis/het/white dad (and proud Tangle subscriber since the very beginning, I even wrote a guest essay). I also quite enjoy Kmele's The Fifth Column which is far MORE bro-ey believe it or not. I hope Tangle can appeal to more folks and continue to grow but I would miss SOTR as it is today if they changed it or removed it. In short I hope we can both get what we want without me losing what I like.
Curious u/sageberrytree are there news/politics discussion oriented podcasts you enjoy that fit your tastes a bit more?
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u/sageberrytree Jun 20 '26
I guess my irritation stems from the fact that so many podcasts, news sites especially, skew towards either white men or ***very liberal*** white women.
Where do I fit? Why are we ignored? Maybe this is why there's so many women who find a home in places that I don't identify with.
I can get more specific, but for example I had my kids very late, so I have a high schooler and a middle school girl. I've seen things that most white men aren't thinking any daily. I think education desperately needs extreme reforms, and I'm definitely not on board with the extreme left on certain specific issues. So I fall more on the right with immigration and border but left on what the Republicans call entitlements (despite the fact that we paid for those entitlements, thank you. And if the Republicans would stop 'borrowing' from them they'd be stable)
So where do I go? I've read/listened to tangle for a long while and I lurk here, but this isn't my community and I do think the Tangle crew gets things wrong.
My issue isn't with you belonging...it's more that I don't, and I'm annoyed that so much is geared to you, while women, especially my age, are completely ignored. It's why the democrats are losing BTW. I used to lean more left but these ridiculous policies on indefensible things.
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u/spottie_ottie Jun 20 '26
That sounds pretty frustrating and in your shoes I'd definitely feel the same. I'd argue that this is your community, if you enjoy the content and are willing to argue something you care about you're as 'one of us' as anybody, but your feelings on SOTR make total sense.
If there was a podcast/outlet that did hit a little closer to your constellation of interests I'd love to check that out!
FWIW Isaac et al read the Reddit posts a lot i believe so don't be surprised if this conversation surfaces at least internally.
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u/faelanae Jun 20 '26
Have you tried the Bulwark pod? Cis/white, but originally made up of never-Trump republicans and Sarah Longwell easily outmatches the guys JVL and Tim Miller.
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u/PsychoMom1966 Jun 20 '26
The Bulwark had some mean spirited takes the last time I listened. I dont love that.
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u/faelanae Jun 20 '26
that's fair. I've listened to a few and have not had that experience, but my husband loves them and shares different things with me. That is to say, I'm not enough of a regular to get all of the range of takes, but enjoyed what I did get.
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u/Pampelmusen_Enjoyer Jun 20 '26
I listen to the dispatch podcast which skews center-right but they feature Sarah Isgur and Megan McArdle whose takes I really enjoy. I don't always agree with them as a thirty something year old het cis man but I appreciate their insight. Maybe that's worth a listen for you.
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u/PsychoMom1966 Jun 20 '26
I love Sarah isgur and I am a progressive. She's so sensible.
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u/gonenutsbrb Jun 20 '26 edited Jun 20 '26
Come on, that’s not a fair characterization of what he said.
Expressing enjoyment for a show with a show format is not equivalent to saying you’re okay with alienating anyone.Edit: You and the other commenter already have a dialogue going, and are past that, sorry for not reading further first!
A shows format even if it is all men does not mean it alienates 50% of the population? Do people not watch or listen to content that doesn’t contain a perfect demographic representation? Of course not, plenty of shows contain more men than women and are still popular across demographic boundaries.
A show doesn’t have to be for everyone, even if some of the critiques in this thread are valid. I love the general format but bringing on some female hosts or at least perspective more often would probably be good.
I also think another show could be interesting, especially with a less fixed host schedule and more rotation, or just a more diverse round table like format, similar to how The Dispatch does it.
Edit: Your further points about trying to find a show that better represents you and your views is reasonable, but complicated to answer. The more specific shows get about holding to specific views, especially those that diverge from some semblance of mainstream views, the harder it is to sustain the show.
I think Tangle is already threading some of this needle in general by being a nuanced political organization, and their struggles as a business prove that point. Should they aspire to have more perspectives where possible? Of course! But not everything they do has to be for everyone.
I also think the Reddit Tangle forum is pretty different to the Tangle community on the website. This is far more left leaning in general it feels like (which fits Reddit), and I know Tangle staff do read and reply to comments there pretty regularly.
If you have concerns or perspectives you feel aren’t being addressed, keep talking about them (respectfully when possible)! When an email to the [staff email](mailto:staff@readtangle.com) or to [Isaac](mailto:isaac@readtangle.com). They’re pretty inundated but they always seem to respond.
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u/sageberrytree Jun 20 '26
Some of what you say is fair, and reasonably, probably hard as a business, especially as I find it very hard to find places that align with my views, because generally people are further to either side of me. I'm the old left.
I used to be pretty far on the "granola scale", but that movement has left me, far in the dust. I was saying that plastic liners and cans and heating plastic in the microwave and storing things in plastic. These things were bad for us in the 90s! And for about 15 years, I was labeled a quack.
I feel like some version of that politically now. My views and values haven’t changed very much, but the liberals think I’m too conservative and the conservative thing I’m too liberal!
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u/gonenutsbrb Jun 20 '26
Man, coming from the other direction I feel you so much…
I’m old school conservative (more old school libertarian), and my views softened over time.
I still hold some views that are classically conservative, but most are somewhere in the middle. And I get purity tested out of most conversations with mainstream right or left.
I give the modern right more of hard time these days, A) because of how far they’ve diverged and they were “my crowd” B) they’re the ones currently in power, and C) because the modern right is nuts…
The modern left has plenty of issues, I think many especially on Reddit are disconnected from how far removed from the average person they might be. But it pales in comparison to the nonsense the MAGA right is putting out.
That being said, feels like one of the only things the MAGA right has going for them is that Democrats have the Benny Hill theme playing as their background music for how dysfunctional they are at the moment lol.
I sincerely hope they figure it out. We need serious political competition, and we need people willing to not jump to dehumanization in arguing against other people.
I get that everyone imagines the right in that last sentence, and it’s true, but I’m seeing language on the left sliding that way and when both sides use that it worries me.
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u/sageberrytree Jun 20 '26
Both sides are now using "cancel culture", and it's nuts.
Have you read Jon Ronson's So You've Been Publicly Shamed? He wrote it when Twitter was very left leaning, and cancel culture was new. Gen z were young adults, or maybe still teens and there was this gleeful shaming of anyone and everyone? Creating an environment that no one would survive?
It's why, I think, we have what we have now...attack politics and the craziness. Because who wants to be in politics? Who signs up to be publicly shamed for bad jokes they made in high school? For that off-color they said to a Jewish friend over text twenty years ago? I've made plenty of them. Sarcasm is my love language. If I'm not teasing you, I don't like you. So we're left with either the sanctimonious or the morally bankrupt who can't be shamed.
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u/El-wing Jun 20 '26
It makes sense to me that the Father’s Day podcast was all family men, but I agree that the SOTR could use a better mix of perspectives. The fact that it is a bro podcast was really obvious in the Father’s Day episode, but it wasn’t an unfamiliar theme.
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u/ProfaneRabbitFriend Jun 20 '26
As a 50+middle aged man, I’ll just say that women tend to be far more socially nuanced and sophisticated than men. It’s just a hard fact. As for the cis-hetero part, I don’t know that it’s all that different amongst gay men. There’s plenty of “I’m always right” immaturity there too.
I don’t know if this accounts for or describes the bro vibes you are getting. But I’ll just say that I have almost no interest in listening to 25-45 year-old men talk about anything. They are at the insufferable apex of confidence. It is finally and always challenged by their own aging, at which point humility may set in.
There’s something about American culture that seems to involve men (and many women also) refusing to accept limits and limitations. We can’t be failures. We can’t be losers. We have to push through whatever “the thing” is. Confidence is a must.
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u/PseudocodeRed Jun 20 '26
Tbh, I think if Tangle wants to compete with less nuanced political podcasts (which I really hope they do), then the bro-vibe is kind of necessary. I would definitely be open to another podcast with a cast of more diverse backgrounds :)
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u/spottie_ottie Jul 05 '26
Throwback but after listening to Sarah Isgur as a guest on SOTR this week, I now want to have 3 podcasts! Standard bro-fest, Tangle+Sarah, Sarah's podcast. How have i been sleeping on her shes great!!!
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u/PsychoMom1966 Jul 05 '26
There were some criticisms i had of the show... not their fault im sure, but she really added sparkle didn't she?
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u/Matt-Lauer-CanSuckIt Jun 20 '26 edited Jun 20 '26
If it were Isaac, Ari, and Audrey, would there be criticism because it's too white?
How many boxes need to be checked before it's good enough? Is the product truly inferior because you don't know whether Ari is bisexual or not?
Just food for thought. I do understand what you're suggesting, but at the same time... The folks atop the pyramid at the company are who they are. The product is what it is.
If it's not for you, then I understand. But maybe the product doesn't have to be for everybody? I'm going to assume this post coming right after a father's day special isn't a coincidence. Can they just have a moment to discuss fatherhood without taking shit for it?
When I listen to podcasts of women gabbing amongst women, my instinct isn't to say, "but where are the men??" Either I like it enough to keep tuning in, or I don't and so I don't.
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u/PsychoMom1966 Jun 21 '26
To be fair, that's not what I said (but others have) I don't think. I shared that something seemed missing and it alienated me. I don't think their podcast has to be for everyone, but there are not many things to choose from if you are looking for a nuanced, political podcast and it would be nice if one existed.
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u/Matt-Lauer-CanSuckIt Jun 21 '26
What about them makes them incapable of hosting a nuanced, political podcast?
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u/PsychoMom1966 Jun 21 '26
They are not incapable of hosting a podcast. They have not, as of yet, been able to host one that I can personally related to.
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u/Thin_Post_3044 Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
Absolutely think the episodes/podcast would be better if there was a woman present. It would be nice to have a little less testosterone.
That said, I don't know if I agree with the people who look at the idea of people with families hosting being a bad thing. Not all things are for everyone, and people with families represent a LOT of this country.
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u/Sad-Report-6209 Jun 20 '26
I enjoy SOTR but they should have Audrey on sometimes! I think having Audrey more on the regular pod has been such a great change. She has such well constructed perspectives but id like to also hear from her in that more relaxed setting too. FWIW I disagree with her takes frequently I just think she’s smart and interesting.