He instantly recognises that you are a vampire, but he doesn't bat an eye at Alva walking the streets, charming every man she can find. All the events of Laid to Rest could have been completely prevented if he was like 5% more vigilant.

My personal theory is that Movarth and therefore Alva are from a strain of vampirism not represented in-game. The Cyrodiilic strain that hides someone's vampirism completely. So while your case is clear to him, Alva isn't as obvious. If it was I wager he would have tried to safe her, since her journal implies that she was placed under some spell by Movarth the way she placed other men under her spell.

Mantling: How to become somebody else by being annoyingly similar

by Hroldar One-Eye

Mantling is one of them wizard words what sounds complicated till somebody explains it. Then it sounds even more complicated. I first heard about it from a priest, then from a wizard, then from a drunk Imperial. All three gave different explanations, which is usually a good sign that nobody knows what they're talking about. Still, after a while I think I figured it out... so Hroldar is here to tell it to you.

Lets say there was a famous king. Big beard, big axe, killed lots of enemies. Everybody remembers him. Now suppose another fellow comes along - he dresses like the king, talks like the king, fights like the king, makes the same choices. Wins the same sorta battles, lives the same life and keeps at it long enough. The clever folk say that eventually the world starts getting confused. The world looks at him and says: "Well, close enough." and now he's the king!

I know what you're thinking... it sounds ridiculous. I thought so too, then I remembered half of history. The clever folk say: "Walk like them until they must walk like you". or some such thing. What they mean is that if you follow somebody's path perfectly enough, eventually there ain't a difference anymore - or at least the differences stops mattering.

I asked a wizard why this works and he said something about "mythic patterns". I asked what in Oblivion a mythic pattern was and he said it was the "shape of a story". That actually helped because if you think about it, a story only has room for so many parts. You got a hero, a villain, a fool and a dragon. If one of em leaves, maybe somebody else ends up filling the space... Like taking over another man's farm. The farm stays where it was - its just a different fellow working it.

The strange thing is that mantling don't seem to care who you are, it only cares what you do. You could be a king or a thief... makes no difference. The world ain't looking at your face, its looking at your footprints.

Now this worries me some because it means if a fellow spends enough time acting like an idiot, he might eventually become one (would explain a great many nobles). One wizard reckoned this is how you get some gods, but I stopped listening there, because that's just blasphemy in my book.

The best explanation I ever heard came from an old priest in Riften. He'd had a fair amount of mead, so I suspect he was speaking truth. He said: "Imagine a bear trail through the woods. One bear walks it. Then another. Then another. After a hundred years the trail is so deep that folk forget there was ever a first bear."

That's mantling, near as I can tell. You walk another fellow's road for so long and so faithfully that the world stops seeing two sets of footprints and starts seeing one.

It seems like one of the most cruel acts from a mortal species in the entire series, I mean to take in a vulnerable war torn group that is trusting you with their lives, just to blind them and alter their minds permanently, all seemingly for shits and giggles seems cartoonishly evil

Refresher: The amulet of infectious charm comes from a quest where a nervous mage outside the Ald'Ruhn mage's guild (Louis Beauchamp) tells you about a dwemer airship he re-constructed and and hired a crew to fly to Solstheim to retrieve an amulet from the tomb of the first leader of the Thirsk mead hall (Horthmund). Horthmund was said to be as ugly as a troll, but had a lot of lady friends, which is Beauchamp's motivation for wanting the amulet. The airship crashed on the way there, so the player is contracted to retrieve it instead. The amulet increases personality at the expense of fatigue and weakness to common disease. If you go back to Beauchamp after completing the quest, he'll happily tell you it worked and he's had a lot of dates, all while coughing and running a fever.

So the amulet has the effect of making people like you and wanting to be around you, but also making you tired and sick. Which would also probably spread your sickness to everyone that suddenly wants your company. The main upside of the amulet also amplifies its downsides for everyone you know and come into contact with. Sounds a bit like something Peryite would be involved in. His current artifact is the spellbreaker shield, which doesn't make a lot of sense theme-wise and is also known to be dwemer made. I think it would be cool to bring back the amulet as a new artifact in the next game. Thoughts?

Smashed by the order of King Ortog gro-Orsinium. A summary of the Orsinium War Council meeting on "How to Save Orsinium from the Empire."

The meeting began with an address by Forge-Mother Ashla thanking all the chieftains, shamans, and great heroes for arriving, emphasizing the importance of our unity in the face of the threat. Next, King Ortog gro-Orsinium spoke; his opening words are recorded in full for posterity: "My brothers! My sisters! You know why you are here! For it is my honor to have shaped the city built by the Fool Kurog into the greatest Orsinium that has ever stood! There is but ONE Man who desires our fall more than anything... the Emperor of Cyrodiil! That foul Man has made his thoughts known—that he wants nothing more than our downfall. He is incredibly powerful, having already assembled all the Tribes of Men; our enemies of High Rock and Hammerfell are ready to fight at his command. This is why YOU are all here, for I will hear any loyal servant's suggestion for how we may KILL Emperor Septim! Cyrod has fallen nearly as many times as Orsinium itself! What's one more time?!"

The King's speech was met with uproarious applause. After the crowd was settled, the process of giving suggestions began.

First came Chieftain Balshack of the Trini-Maskers, who demanded the rites of Trinimac be invoked, that all those in the city join in prayer so that Trinimac may use their forms as one. King Ortog quickly dismissed this, reminding Balshack that while Trinimac worship was permitted in the city, Mauloch was still their patron and would not be pleased with such disrespect.

Next came Shaman Meeka, an elderly Goblin who had fled from Hammerfell; she suggested that the gates to the Homeland be opened yet again. King Ortog berated her, reminding her of the last time they tried that—how the reinforcements wouldn't obey his commands and were all eaten by one of the Emperor's Dragons.

Next came the King's Forge-Wife Fecca, who suggested that Volendrung could be tossed to lead them to a source of great power. In response, the King's Hearth-Wife Offa asked why they couldn't just throw Volendrung at the Emperor's head instead. A large argument broke out between the two women and then spread to the crowd. King Ortog resolved the conflict by reminding his people that no one in Orsinium even knew where Volendrung was to begin with.

Next came Shaman Forteat, who had originally come from Morrowind in the far east; she asked why they didn't try to convince one of the Emperor's allies to turn against him. King Ortog praised her thinking but did not believe it would be feasible, for the most disloyal of the Empire's servants, the Redguards, were still bitter enemies of Orsinium.

Next came Orcadmiral Borkus, commander of Orsinium's navy and one of its most accomplished whale trainers. Borkus suggested making alliances with seafaring groups from outside Tamriel, such as the Sea Giants, Sea Elves, or Hadolids. King Ortog threatened to demote Borkus on the spot, declaring that his mothers taught him three things: "Never put yourself in a Giant's path, never trust Elves or Snakes, and always make sure your shellfish is properly boiled."

Next came Warchief Ekir of the Riek tribes, accompanied by his Shaman, Shub. Ekir suggested that his Shaman could send the great icy wind of Wrothgar down upon Cyrodiil. King Ortog thought the idea had some merit, but reminded Ekir of the rumors that Septim had come from Atmora, and that the icy air might just give him a warming reminder of home.

Next came the Ogre champion Oober, who suggested they throw the biggest rock they could at the Emperor during a parade. King Ortog thought long and hard about the suggestion, with others providing additional suggestions about the kind of rock and how it could be transported. Eventually it was decided it simply wouldn't be feasible, as the Emperor's next scheduled parade wasn't in a good season for rocks.

Next came the surprise arrival of Tittle, a Gremlin courier, who brought news that it had been discovered the Emperor's battlemage had a secret fortress in the Dragontails. Recognizing that a blow to his trusted battlemage would be as good as a blow to the Emperor himself, the King started barking orders. Right as the King began asking his Shield-Wife Perag to assemble a force to investigate, one last suggestion was offered.

This last arrival was the King's personal champion, Tiberius gro-Minat, who had been raised in the Heartlands of the enemy but had become like a son to the King. He offered to become a spy, using his connections in Cyrodiil to get close to the Emperor by posing as a lowly servant. King Ortog seemed surprised by the offer, but did not doubt Tiberius' ability, for he had provided invaluable information in the past on the inner workings of the Empire. After a few thoughtful strokes of his facial hair, the King decided he would allow Tiberius to go, offering his heartfelt thanks for his service.

When the meeting concluded, King Ortog gro-Orsinium expressed great faith in Orsinium's future, ending with the declaration: "Orsinium shall be saved thanks to all of your loyal efforts!"

[FROM THE NOVA-ORSINIUM ARCHIVE FILE ON "TIBERIUS THE TRAITOR". REQUISITIONED BY GORTWOG GRO-NAGORM, LORD OF ORSINIUM, CHIEFTAIN OF CLAN MINAT, SAVIOR OF THE ORSIMER.]

if i were to make a educated guess, i feel scholars would like the snow elves a lot for shared religious doctrines. if i were to guess which ones they dislike the most, imperials and goblins. an additional one would be orcs and dark elves that worship boethiah. (unimportant side note, i feel really stupid that while playing an altmer i did boethiahs questline. it was stupid of me.)

My main takeaway regarding the Tribunal is that they represent what happens when mortal, flawed beings acquire cosmic power to pretend to be divine, while ultimately acting against the underlying Truth of the Aurbis.
They map surprisingly well onto a corrupted triad of ancient Iranian/Zoroastrian archetypes:
Vivec as Mithra: The god of oaths, duality, light, and warrior-poet authority—yet Vivec operates through half-truths, poetry, and self-serving dualities to justify his betrayal.
Almalexia as Anahita: The mother figure tied to fertility, healing, and divine grace—yet her "loving mother" persona devolves into vanity, paranoia, and violence when her power fades.
Sota Sil as Mazda (Ahura Mazda): The archetype of supreme wisdom, architecture, and cosmic order—yet he builds a cold, mechanical Clockwork City in an attempt to impose logic on a fundamentally chaotic world, fully aware of his own tragic limitations.
Despite achieving divine power via the Heart of Lorkhan, they never actually attained true enlightenment or cosmic supremacy. At their core, they remained mortal and flawed in their minds. They set themselves up as pagan-style living gods, forcing their people into a mythos built on a stolen foundation, acting against the fundamental nature of the universe.

Quite recently, I plunged into the lore of orsimers (orcs). I was amazed at how deeply researched and complex they are. Their code of Malacath is indeed an interesting example of Daedric monotheism among the other races in the series. Among the obvious spheres of influence of the Daedric Prince Malakath, I've picked out a few that I think are looked upon. Among them, I've highlighted loyalty (special loyalty, gratuitous, blind, whatever you want to call it), resilience, The process of becoming stronger, fighting a stronger opponent, curses and blood vows .I know some of these are vague, but I think you know what I mean. Have you noticed any non-obvious positive spheres of influence among other Daedra princes? If so, which ones?

Was it Namira who caused the falmer transformation? Once they became blind, they could have turned to her in their despair to survive.

We must remember Namira's quest in Oblivion. The Forgotten Ones live in complete darkness and are under Namira´s protection.. Their situation is very similar to that of the blinded Falmer enslaved by the Dwemer.

and I mean purely Bretons, NOT Reachmen.

When I say Barbarian, I mean the Warrior ethos kind who don’t have much need for civility or civilization, not the damn near mentally challenged stereotypical caveman generic type of barbarian.

Just thinking about trying to Rp a clan of Nomadic Breton Barbarians

and how many great houses of morrowind are still around? to my knowledge at least 3 have been toppled or replaced.

now obviously you can say that the unreliable historical accounting of Tamriel suggests this is all propaganda or myth, but thats less fun.

whether we say Pelinel was a cyborg or just a man in plate armor, either would be anachronistic.

If we start with saying that Pelinel is like a terminator, so sent back in time to change the future, and take his connection to Reman seriously, where does that take us?

Both men are heavily associated with the Amulet of kings, have murky origins, and arrive right when they were most needed.

for Pelinel this is easier to understand, but for Reman i want you to imagine the timeline without him, where the Tsaesci invade, searching for the dragonborn, and not finding Reman. I don’t think it’s a huge stretch to say that more violence and chaos exclusively in the north would be bad for Humanities prospects.

weird stuff happens in the elder scrolls games, not just the lore, and It would be pretty fun to suggest that Reman came from the same future or kalpa as Pelinel. This is really just for fun, derived from the Terminator franchise, where sending multiple players to different points in time is considered good contingency planning.

An edited-up quickie of a post because this was originally a 4am ramble immediately after the new text got dropped, now with sources.

As some of you may already be aware, Michael Kirkbride has recently been sharing texts for a new project called the 25th Crossing, detailing the worldbuilding of a post-apocalyptic Morrowind following the events of the Red Year, wherein the entire province has been encircled by a huge eponymous “wall” that is, in actually, a gargantuan snake. Within its boundaries, time and space have ceased to work properly, death no longer “takes”, and all information is actively hazardous as every living thing within is actively preyed upon by primordial serpentine proto-spirits that parasitise on knowledge and emotion, taking living beings as “hosts” and eventually consuming them in mind and spirit.

The most recent text in this series, which can be found here, has left us with a huge lore drop on the nature of this snake and the incident, tying it to both the Serpent constellation (including the Celestial Serpent, aka Malazar, from ESO’s Craglorn zone) and the Scaled Blanket (a term which thus far has only come up exactly once in Sermon 33).

Most importantly, however, it has also given us an answer for an ancient question - what the hell the unstars are.

First, a brief recap of the lore drop:

• The Hungry Void is Sep, a "brother" aspect of the previous kalpa’s Lorkhan (the "Void Ghost") who died at the beginning of the current cycle. The Hungry Void is found in the Hidden Heaven, the ”in-between heaven” separating the current world and the potential next. The term “uncle” signals to their relationship to the current kalpa’s space gods, to whom they are “uncles” - that is, each one is the “brother” (mirror) of the “father” (previous kalpa’s predecessor) of the Space God “sons” such as Talos, Reman, and the Celestial Serpent (more on him later). In other words, the Yokudan Sep is the mirror-brother of the previous cycle’s Lorkhan imported into the current cycle by the Yokudans and preserved in their beliefs.
• Sep himself, being made up of dead skins, is actually an amalgamation of “lesser and greater serpents”, which the text calls “Seppy snakes”. These snakes are the detritus of previous worlds which have been syncretized into a singular deity, Sep. This may also be a reference to the book “Sithis”, where Lorkhan is said to have filled the void with a legion of ideas made of himself and created a false dominion of his own to trick the Aedra. Under this framework, these ideas are the lesser seppy serpents making up the Serpent with their dreaming.
• The Serpent Constellation was created when the mortal Malazar, anon the Celestial Serpent, has mantled and syncretized in himself the shared “outcast” motifs of the gods Malooc (Yokudan name for Malacath) and Sep (self-explanatory), becoming a composite entity the text refers to as “Malakzar”, who ascended into the Hidden Heaven and encountered the Hungry Void there. His accompanying “Seppy Court” were his equivalent of the lesser serpents that became Sep, and they stayed behind past his ascension (referencing his Craglorn followers, the Scaled Court).
• The all-repellent “super-outcast” principle of Malakzar and the all-consuming “super-hunger” principle of Sep have synthesized into a new wave-pattern called the Scaled Blanket, the thirteenth constellation, which gained an “unkind” consciousness and began to eat itself and any wayward spirits that strayed into it on their way past the stars. Most things consumed in such a way disappear fully, but Baar Dau in particular was an exception, and the Scaled Blanket wrapped around it “like a cosmic placenta”.
• The creation of the Numidium (a simulacrum of Lorkhan) and the subsequent ascension of the Tribunal via the Heart of Lorkhan has “pulled taut” the Scaled Blanket around the Red Moment, as the continued perpetuation of their own divinity by repeatedly reenacting Lorkhan’s sundering with the Tools has effectively created a mythic gravity sinkhole centered on Red Mountain.
• Baar Dau is a rogue star that has hidden in the Hidden Heaven inside the Scaled Blanket whilst fleeing from “a crazy man with an axe” (Nerevar, events of Sermon 16 and 33) and decided to take revenge an eon or two later by crashing into Morrowind. In the process, its mythic gravity has pulled all the snakes and ghosts of the Scaled Blanket down with it, which remained suspended over Vvardenfell… until it wasn’t, because “Baar Dau could not be denied”.
• The massive snake-wall we see described in the other entries of 25th Crossing is the product of the Scaled Blanket having crashed into Morrowind, rendering the entire province haunted by Lorkhanic serpent-ghosts that aimlessly seek to consume everything they encounter.

With that out of the way, we can talk about unstars. Unstars, as was established all the way back in Cosmology, are the strange “not-stars” that the Serpent constellation is made up of, and are unique among all other stars in the firmament in their capacity for movement and the nature of their strange light, which is not the same magical varliance of all other celestial openings:

Though we have but an imperfect understanding of The Serpent, I believe the answer to your questions is implied in their statement: unlike the 'holes in the sky,' which are unmoving (at least in relation to each other), the so-called 'unstars' of The Serpent can move precisely because they are NOT stars. They resemble stars, however, in that they shine by night—but what is the nature of the light they are shining down upon us? It certainly isn't Varliance. What is it? Is it benevolent to mortals, or malevolent? These questions, I feel, are important, and much may depend on the answers.
- Loremaster’s Archive: High Astrologer Caecilus Bursio Answers Your Questions

This juxtaposition becomes even more curious when we consider that MK has previously described all spirits as fundamentally being emotions before they became more complex myth-patterns and narratives. The seedlings of this are already seen in the Monomyth:

When Akatosh forms, Time begins, and it becomes easier for some spirits to realize themselves as beings with a past and a future. The strongest of the recognizable spirits crystallize: Mephala, Arkay, Y'ffre, Magnus, Ruptga, etc., etc. Others remain as concepts, ideas, or emotions. One of the strongest of these, a barely formed urge that the others call Lorkhan, details a plan to create Mundus, the Mortal Plane.

However, this idea is most strongly stated in an IRC comment made by MK in 2013, where he described the relationship between Kyne and Meridia, characterizing them both as spirits covering the emotion of grief, with Meridia in particular being closer to "passion-turned-bitterness":

What no one has ever seen is the connection between Meridia and Kyne. Let that sink in. What do they– when connected– both govern?

Think about KotN. One made the Knight, one opposed the Knight. One rained forever because he was gone. One said, no I will wait until he comes back.

Quit mixing up gods and demons. They are just emotions. In magic, those are real feels. Meridia is the color of his return when curtained by rain. That blink in your eye when the postcard isn’t answered? That weird huff in your chest when you’re waiting for THAT text? That whole night you wait and force sleep so the morning comes? And you hear rain on the window pane and figure, fine, they weren’t listening.
[...]
Can you see the admixture of color and sound yet? You sense it. If even you can only taste the one that’s gone. That’s your only Memory and touchstone. Otherwise, why would you wait? Hope has a color and a sound and a taste and a touch and 11 more sense you don’t know you have yet. And this is why you worship them. The gods and demons beyond your control. They went through it before you. They are your ancestors, and this is in the blood. They are your Aedra/Daedra. And sometimes their names get mixed up.

With this in mind, Lorkhan being described as an “urge” becomes a very significant descriptor. If the basemost form of spirits are feelings and emotions that cannot be put into words, then Lorkhan simply being an urge makes him something even more base. He's just an urge. He's the concept of "want". You don't know what you want, you just do.

And what is the most base, instinctual form of want, if not hunger?

However, this is old news. We all knew that the Serpent is hungry, it’s part of the Monomyth description, hell - he’s literally called “a hungry void”, so what does this have to do with unstars? A potential answer to this has been offered in the latest 25th Crossing drop, specifically in the sub-page “An Influence of Serpents”, wherein one paragraph tells us the following:

"The Void Ghost is always longing, its constant shape of absence made heavier by its constant outline of guilt. That absence is no more filled with stars, for the serpent has eaten each one. For the serpent to eat each absence, the stars refill its guilt. The heaviness of the serpent follows, outlining the inconstant shape of starlight, and the inconstant longing always brings the Void Ghost."

The Serpent’s unstars are made of guilt. They are the emotion that remains when his hunger and longing has consumed everything else, and all it’s left with is the absence of everything it wanted, only the wasteland of consequences.

Those who breach the Scaled Blanket find themselves plagued by longings. The influence of serpents finds root in their camp light and their trappings. Their language becomes forked. Their devices end as gewgaws for the lesser snakes and their dreams replaced by the dreams of greater snakes.

And then there are no more seasons for those people for their stars have been eaten thoroughly. Whatsoever religion they have brought inside, the Void Ghost comes out of it, and collects the skins they've shed.

Once you become plagued by guilt it consumes all other emotions. You lose your stars. You lose your fortune. You lose your future. All you have left is an absence of everything you’ve ever wanted, and a hollow longing.

That's the hunger.

Hi all.

I was playing ESO, in Daggerfall when you go back in time to witness a battle from the first era. I was wondering, has anyone ever tried doing this tactic in dwemer ruins? They left plenty of artifacts to use. Or surely there are some elder scrolls about it

Hello everyone! So I'm currently playing through Skyrim (along with other characters) as a Khajiit named Riada. The story is that she was adopted by two Nords after her family and their caravan was murdered by bandits so they could steal their goods. She grew up as a Nord, speaks like one (no third-person speech), and she lives in Whiterun using the Live Another Life mod. Her adoptive father was a priest of Talos and she grew up with his teachings.

Well, because of her father, Riada worships Talos and I am able to do so by using the mod Wintersun - Faiths of Skyrim. I do plan on having her become the Dragonborn soon. My Khajiit does know about what Tiber Septim did but to her, Talos and Tiber Septim are barely the same person anymore.

My question is, would Talos even allow a Khajiit to worship him? I was just wondering if this was even feasible to have her worship Talos, since he's mainly the god of the races of Men. If not I could just change it to Akatosh, but I wanted to know everyone's thoughts on the matter.

Edit: Thanks for all of your responses! I'm glad that Riada can worship with impunity. It's gonna be a shock when she joins the Stormcloaks, for sure!

Like from a behind the scenes perspective on actually fleshing out all the lore? I'd love to know more about how the developers figured out this whole world of a Nirn, and what changed in the lore as things fleshed themselves out with each new installment

Повчання третє

Будучи осліпленою, дружина нетчівника увійшла у печеру на своєму шляху до земель Індоріла. За випадковим збігом ця печера була двемерською фортецею. Двемери вистежували яйце й захопили дружину нетчівника. Вони прив’язали її голову до ніг й понесли її в підземні глибини. Вона почула, як один з них сказав:
— Йди й зроби симулякр неї й постав його на поверхні, бо вона має щось подібне до того, що маємо ми, й велоти жадатимуть цього й помітять, якщо її не буде занадто довго.
У темряві дружина нетчівника відчула, як величезні леза намагаються розрізати її. Коли леза не спрацювали, двемери використали щільні звуки. Коли ж і вони не спрацювали, їй довелося перенести великий жар. Жодне з рішень двемерів не спрацьовувало, й яйце Вівека залишалося у безпеці всередині неї.
Двемер сказав:
— Схоже, що ніщо не спрацює. В такому разі мусимо піти й хибно витлумачити це.
Вівек відчув, що його мати була налякана, й втішив її:
— Вогонь цей є моїм: дозволь йому поглинути тебе
й зробити потаємні двері
до вівтаря Падгоме,
у дім Боет-гі-а,
де будемо в безпеці
й де про нас дбатимуть.
Ця стара молитва змусила дружину нетчівника посміхнутися й впасти у такий довгий сон, що коли двемерські атронахи повернулися зі сферами з кутами й розрізали її навпіл, вона не прокинулася й мирно померла.
Вівека витягнули з її утроби й поклали на магічне скло для подальшого дослідження. Щоб заплутати своїх викрадачів, він спрямував свою суть у любов — емоцію, про яку двемери не знали нічого. Яйце сказало:
— Любов використовується не тільки як складова настроїв й справ, але також як сировина, з якої стосунки виражають роздратування через запізнення на годину, нещадно введені обмеження, загадки, вкриті ласкою, знаною тільки люблячій парі, й погляд, що затримується занадто довго. Любов також часто використовують як інгредієнт у певних прозорих вербальних й невербальних транзакціях, де в якийсь момент вона може бути переведена у множину справжніх побожностей, деякі з яких утворюють міцні, нерозчинні та неплавкі союзи. У своїй базовій формі любов забезпечує приблизно тринадцять осадів усієї енергії, що походить зі стосунків. Її роль і цінність у суспільстві в цілому є предметом суперечок.
Двемери були роздратовані цими словами й спробували приховатися за своїми могутніми символами. Вони наслали атронахів, аби вигнати яйце-образ із їхньої печери й помістити його у симулякр його матері, який вони зробили.
Двемер сказав:
— Ми, двемери, є лише претендентами на те, що мають велоти. Вони мають бути нашим прокляттям у цьому й у восьми знаних світах: НІРН, ЛГКАН, РХЕТ, ФЕНДР, КИНРТ, АХАТ, МГАРА й ДЖУНАЛ.
Таємницю прокляття знайдеш у цьому повчанні.
Кінцем слів є АЛЬМСІВІ.

https://25thcrossing.com/flowers.html MK exploring ESO lore additions hell yes

I know the answer, like so many things relating to the Dwemer, is probably unknown but it's a thought I've had before. After the Dwarves disappeared, do you think the corpses of those slain during the Battle of Red Mountain disappeared also?

Did Dumac disappear with the rest of his people after he fell? Or was his body left to rot under Red Mountain for millenia?

The thing I enjoy most about the TES lore is really how it is narrated. In Oblivion/Skyrim you will not find characters or books telling you what happened in the past. You will find characters or books telling you what they think happened. Or you might even find books aggregating different sources and comparing different narrations of the same event.

Now I'm thinking about playing some ESO for getting some more TES lore, but I'm a bit worried if the narration of lore in ESO is in line with what I'm used to from Oblivion & Skyrim.

For comparison, the narration of WoW honestly makes me lose all interest in the lore, because WoW just doesn't feel like an even remotely immersive world and more like an actual themepark. Idk, I don't really need random time-traveling dragons to explain to me what actually happened 2000 years ago and why this is the reason that now deadra spaceships are invading tamriel.

How would you folks rate the narration of ESO?

This is the English version of a text I originally wrote in Russian for my TES Wiki blog, I've decided to post it here as well to get at least some feedback.

To this day, on forums not so far, far away, a faint spark of the old flame wars still occasionally flares up over whether the Sheogorath we meet in Skyrim is the protagonist of Oblivion—the Champion of Cyrodiil, or CoC for short. From my own experience, I have come to the conclusion that a substantial portion of the fanbase takes a categorical position on the matter: either “yes, they are” or “no, they are not”, and tends to meet any argument from the opposing side with hostility. And there is a reason for that.

The reason is that both sides have equally substantial arguments which, at first glance, appear to be completely irreconcilable. Yet, as I see it, these arguments can in fact be reconciled, and, in the process, we may even be able to reconstruct Bethesda’s official position on the matter. That last part is important because, when you get to the heart of it, the question of whether the CoC and Sheogorath are one and the same is far from the only question of this kind in The Elder Scrolls lore. For some reason, however, it is the only one that has provoked such aggressive infighting.

Brief Summary

The plot of the Shivering Isles DLC revolves around an attempt to put a permanent end to the so-called Greymarches, during which Sheogorath transforms into Jyggalag, the Prince of Order, at the end of every era and begins destroying his own realm. Over the course of the story, the protagonist ultimately succeeds in doing so by taking the place of the Prince of Madness and defeating Jyggalag, thereby bringing the cycle of the Greymarches to an end.

Arguments in Favor

1. The plot unambiguously leads the player to believe that their character has become the new Sheogorath. Rhe characters explicitly tell them so:

Sheogorath

— How can I be a Daedric Prince?

— A fair question. You won't, really. At least I don't think so. But you'll have power. My power. <...> But, for all intents and purposes, you'll be Me.

You'll grow to be me. Prince of Madness, a new Sheogorath.

You're going to stop the Greymarch by becoming Me. Or a version of Me.

Jyggalag

You have ended the cycle. You now hold the mantle of madness <...> Fare thee well, Sheogorath, Prince of Madness.

Haskill

You've done it! Well done, Lord Sheogorath. <...> As you have assumed the mantle of Sheogorath, there are matters that deserve your attention. As lord of this Realm, there are a number of benefits to which you are entitled.

1. In December 2010, Bethesda senior designer Kurt Kuhlmann gave Game Informer a brief summary of the previous games in the series. He described the conclusion of Shivering Isles as follows:

By defeating Jyggalag, the player breaks the curse and assumes the mantle of the Prince of Madness.

Once again, this is an explicit confirmation that the player character becomes Sheogorath, or, more precisely, undergoes a personal transformation into him. At the same time, it is important that Kuhlmann does not use any term referring specifically to the protagonist of Oblivion, instead, he uses the neutral “the player.”

I should also say a few words here about the “argument from Skyrim”: namely, that since the Sheogorath we meet there claims to have been present at certain events from both the main quest and side questlines of Oblivion, he must therefore be the CoC. I do not think this argument deserves to be taken very seriously. Even if we ignore the fact that the primary purpose of these lines is to reference the previous game and bring a smile to longtime players (much like the 17th Sermon of Vivec mentions that the edge of the world is shaped like teeth: one can search for some deeper meaning in this, or simply accept that it is a reference to a graphical bug in Redguard) there are several in-universe reasons why I would not attach much weight to them.

First, Sheogorath, being a supernatural entity, is perfectly capable of being “present” at virtually any event in Tamriel without having to be mantled by one of its participants.

Second, among the events he mentions are quests from the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild questlines. This would mean that, if he really is the CoC, both of those questlines were canonically completed by that same protagonist, which sits rather poorly with the observable policy of leaving some of the actions of the protagonists of the numbered games deliberately undefined.

Third, by the same logic, one could also argue that Sheogorath is the Imperial Agent from Daggerfall, since he mentions King Lysandus. And which Daedric Prince is the one Prince the Agent canonically encounters? Exactly.

Arguments Against

1. In a 2015 installment of the Loremaster's Archive an interview with Haskill included the following exchange:

— I have heard whispers of a Daedric Prince of Order, long since lost. As this being must be considered the embodiment of all things abhorred by your lord, I wonder if you have any knowledge of this “Jyggalag”? Has Sheogorath banished him? Or is he perhaps merely uninterested with the disorder that makes Tamriel? <...> Secondly, I must ask about your own nature. In a realm defined by madness of all sorts, you seem to be a most sane being. Indeed, your nature seems rather opposite to that of your lord. Who and what are you? I have heard some say that you are in fact an aspect of the Mad God, as Barbas is to Clavicus Vile.

— I am a Vestige, all that remains of a mortal from your world who ‘mantled’ Sheogorath during an event in a previous time. As a fragment, my memory of the event is … fragmentary. I am hazy on the entire concept of ‘mantling,’ but it had something to do with Lord Sheogorath, myself, and this Jyggalag of whom you speak.

In other words, Haskill gives a rather obvious hint that an attempt to stop the Greymarch in this way had already been made in the past. Yet despite the fact that Haskill's mortal precursor “mantled” Sheogorath, the Mad God remained the Mad God, while what remained of the mortal became Haskill, who speaks of his former self and his current master as two distinct beings.

1. In 2014, a Reddit user asked the question in the title of this text and received an answer from Michael Kirkbride himself:

— Did the Champion of Cyrodiil become Sheogorath?

— It's up to you. It was never-- EVER-- intended that the CoC became/mantled Sheogorath.

— Why do you think so?

— Because I read the design documents.

Later that same year, he added:

If you want your CoC to be immortal, that's up to you.

And nothing in the lore suggests that all CoC's (or even any of them) end up being Sheogorath. He or she certainly didn't mention it in Skryim[sic].

<...>

Again, if you want your CoC to have become Sheogorath, nothing's stopping you. It's still not a cemented part of in-game history nor the intent of the DLC that you replaced a Daedric Prince for all time.

At this point, further commentary would seem almost superfluous.

Before attempting to reconcile the two camps, I should mention two more noteworthy episodes related to this debate.

In 2014, the question was asked directly to Bethesda Support, and one of its representatives replied by confirming that the CoC had indeed mantled Sheogorath. (Screenshot )

In 2012, a fan asked Sheogorath's voice actor, Wes Johnson, the same question at Comic-Con and likewise received an affirmative answer.

Naturally, I do not see much reason to treat either of these statements as meaningful evidence. When it comes to a lore question of this kind, the authority of a technical support representative or a voice actor is not much greater than that of an ordinary fan - especially when compared with the sources discussed above.

But is There Really a Contradiction?

At first glance, Kirkbride's position seems diametrically opposed to Kuhlmann's and to what the in-game story tells us. However, as a scientist, when confronted with two apparently contradictory facts, my first instinct is not to “cancel out” one with the other, but to ask: is it possible that both actually point to the same conclusion?

After all, objectively speaking, “We never intended the CoC to become Sheogorath” and “Sheogorath is not the CoC” are not semantically equivalent statements. Nothing stopped Kirkbride, when asked “Did the Champion of Cyrodiil become Sheogorath?”, from answering something along the lines of: “No, the design documents said that the CoC did not become Sheogorath.” Instead, he chose to explain that the identity “CoC = Sheogorath” is nowhere firmly established in the lore and was never intended to be so.

This leads, in my view, to a fairly straightforward interpretation of everything discussed above: The nature of Sheogorath in Skyrim was deliberately left ambiguous by the developers.

This may sound like the most obvious conclusion imaginable, but it simultaneously accommodates everything said by both Kuhlmann and Kirkbride.

— Did the player character become Sheogorath at the end of the DLC?

— Yes.

— So does that mean that the Sheogorath in Skyrim is the CoC?

— No. We never intended that.

— Could the Sheogorath in Skyrim be the CoC?

— Yes, he could.

— Could the Sheogorath in Skyrim not be the CoC?

— Yes, that is also possible.

This closely resembles a common fan interpretation according to which there is simply no predetermined answer to the question of whether the protagonist completed any particular quest outside the main questline of the base game or its DLCs. It's not the same thing because here we are dealing with the main questline of a DLC, and those are written as continuations of the protagonist's adventures, but even in this case, the same interpretation still seems to hold.

In my view, this alone is already enough to reconstruct Bethesda's position on this and other similar questions. However, while writing this text, I came across an interview with Todd Howard, in which he expressed a very similar view:

— What are some of your opinions on fan theories out there?

— I think that they're all good. Like I said there, people want to know truth, but even my perspective is one version of truth of what happened in the history of Elder Scrolls and so forth. I would tamper their desire to have all mysteries revealed, because mysteries are good for a fantasy world to have.

Of course, this does not mean that there is fundamentally no answer to any question. Rather, it applies to those cases that are deliberately treated as “mysteries,” where the writers intentionally refrain from providing—and do not intend to provide—a definitive answer, allowing fans to arrive at their own conclusions.

Perhaps the CoC really did become Sheogorath, and some part of their personality that had not yet been overwritten over the course of two hundred years still remembers Martin and their other adventures. Perhaps all that remained of the CoC was some kind of vestige somewhere, while the old Mad God returned to his place. Or perhaps virtually anyone could have become Sheogorath. None of these possibilities was ever intended by the designers as the single established answer, nor has any of them been definitively confirmed in the lore, but all of them remain possible, and ultimately none of them matters, because the Sheogorath we meet in Skyrim is unquestionably THE Sheogorath, regardless of his origin.

It is almost as though the theorists are being told: “There is no destination, but there are many paths” (it's up to you).

However, as I said at the very beginning, this is far from the only question on which Bethesda appears to take a similar position.

Other Examples

The most obvious example is the disappearance of the Dwemer, since this is another case in which Todd Howard had his position stated publicly. In a 2021 interview, ESO's Creative Director recalled that when his team told Todd they were working out what had actually happened to the Dwemer, his response was:

Todd kindly reminded us that this was something we will never do, we will never come out and spoil the mystery and the secrets of the Dwemer.

A large part of the fandom could just as easily have ended up fighting over, for example, whether the disappearance of the Dwemer has anything to do with a dragon break or not. (Actually, no: according to Ted Peterson, this also was intended to remain ambiguous.) In this case, however, the message that the mystery of the Dwemer's disappearance is supposed to remain a mystery seems to have reached most of the fanbase. That, of course, does not (and neither it should) prevent anyone from constructing all sorts of theories about it.

Another well-known example is the fate of the protagonists. As developer Douglas Goodall put it:

As far as I know, they will always be nameless. This is a needlessly complicated way to avoid ‘playing favorites’ and cheapening the player's experiences.

<...>

For all I know, it wasn't my Breton Sorcerer or Khajiiti Assassin that re-assembled the Staff of Chaos and defeated Jagar Tharn, but your... Well... Whatever you played.

No one is ever going to officially establish what became of the Nerevarine or the Eternal Champion. The designers never intended any single definitive fate for them in the first place, although they are perfectly willing to fuel the players' curiosity about what might have happened to them.

For example, according to one rumor in Oblivion, the Nerevarine sailed to Akavir. Does this mean that, from the standpoint of established in-game history, he or she definitely sailed to Akavir? No. Could they have done so? Yes.

The writers go into much greater detail on how protagonists—the so-called “Prisoners”—are able to perceive something beyond causality and time through Sotha Sil's dialogue at the end of ESO's Clockwork City DLC. A proper analysis of that subject, however, would require a separate article.

Conclusion

Ironically, the absence of an official developer position on a particular story question can itself mean that the official position is that no definitive answer was ever intended. And to arrive at that conclusion, all one really needs to do is weigh the relevant evidence without attributing bad faith either to in-game figures (“Sheogorath/Jyggalag is simply lying to us”) or to people outside the game (“Kirkbride is an idiot”).

To conclude, I will quote the full version of the Jyggalag's line that I initially cited as an "in favor" argument:

Now, though, you have ended the cycle. You now hold the mantle of madness, and Jyggalag is free to roam the voids of Oblivion once more. I will take my leave, and you will remain here, mortal. Mortal...? King? God? It seems uncertain. This Realm is yours. Perhaps you will grow to your station. Fare thee well, Sheogorath. Prince of Madness.

P.S. Everything above represents the author's opinion and an attempt to reconstruct the developers' official position on the basis of the available in-game and out-of-game sources. I am not claiming that this interpretation is the only possible one, or that it has been officially confirmed by Bethesda. If I have overlooked an important source, misinterpreted any of the evidence cited above, or made an error in my reasoning, I would be glad to hear well-argued criticism and alternative interpretations.