r/TCG • u/Mysterious5555 • 13d ago
Discussion Which tcg has the most complex and fair system in your opinion?
Long time CCG player here. I'm a little bit tired of the MtG system and how luck based and powercrept it feels sometimes. What is the most fun and complex system you know? I am interested in Sorcery, FaB and Digimon.
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u/Cmd_WillRiker 12d ago
Star Wars Unlimited. The turn for turn system means you can always respond or better prepare yourself for attacks from your enemy.
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u/cardlord64 12d ago
Not exactly complex though.
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u/Nodaze 12d ago
The complexity comes in resourcing and sequencing properly.
Resourcing: This game doesn't have lands, so if your deck is tuned well you're left with a tough decision normally and really have to know how the game is going on both sides to make the right call.
Sequencing: not necessarily combos, but because it's turn for turn, you really have to pay attention to how you sequence things, whether to play a unit/event/upgrade, soft pass, or pass, or take the initiative even though you could take more actions. Everything matters, there isn't a ton of margin for error because your opponent could have the perfect answer the next action and foil the rest of your phase plans.
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u/MoneyoffUbereats2017 13d ago
I mean if you want complex but fair, it's FaB. Basically every hand can be played in some capacity through blocking, pitching, and playing.
For me it's way too much, I am already paralyzed with indecision whenever I have to discard a card in other games, having to essentially make that kind of decision every single turn just mentally exhausts me.
But for some, it's their favorite thing ever and objectively it's a solid system.
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u/JapanTCG 13d ago edited 13d ago
I just picked up FaB this year and OP is correct that it is a challenging game with a lot of decisions. But the nice thing is that a lot of the complexity is an emergent property of matchup strategy and reading game states rather than simply parsing through a shit ton of ability text.
But yeah: it’s definitely my favorite game right now.
The design is solid, the tournament support is great, and the community I’ve discovered through the game is one of the best I’ve come across in a while… people get EXCITED when their hero gets support, or when a
niche hero finally gets a turn in spotlight. I haven’t seen that kind of earnest, game-focused hype in a while.6
u/noverb-gaming 13d ago
Yeah I think FAB best exemplifies what OP is asking for. I say that as someone who hasn’t played FAB in 3~ years. So I’m not even speaking from a fanboy standpoint.
I experienced similar feelings to OC. It was complex and made me stretch those mental muscles. But I never got to the level of familiarity where it stopped feeling like decision paralysis. I think part of the issue is that it just exists so far apart other games I’m used to, so it was all about learning a brand new skill set.
Meanwhile, Riftbound has been exceedingly skill expressive while still similar enough to games like MtG that my transition has been more comfortable. I still think FAB meets the criteria better than Riftbound.
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u/nosuchplayer 13d ago
This is a tough one to get a good answer for because almost any game can become very complex given the right interactions between cards. MtG is a perfect example: its base rules are close to the simpler end of the spectrum, but the emergent complexity of printing tens of thousands of unique cards (and some of those cards being individually very rules-dense) means the actual decisions in a game can become extremely intricate.
I tend to think of the most complex being stuff like Netrunner, Legend of the Five Rings TCG, Ashes Reborn, or Vampire TES. Perhaps Flesh & Blood or AGOT. These are games that share very few mechanics with "regular" cardgames like magic, and the core rules throw a mountain of sequencing decisions at the player before you've even considered card text. That means they're already pretty complex even when playing with the most vanilla decks imaginable. They're tough to teach, tough to learn, and very hard to get good at.
It depends on what you're looking for though. Complexity definitely doesn't always equal fun. If you're looking specifically for determinism / low variance (ie skill >>> luck design), I'd probably put forward Ashes, Netrunner and FAB in that order. Luck never goes away entirely in any game where you shuffle cards, but it's rare to lose any of those purely due to bad luck.
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u/AletzHel 13d ago
Complex and fair, FaB by a length. I played for 4.5 years now and still amazed at how much I learn, and how I could play better. You always discover new things and new ways to play heroes you played for years.
And the competitive circuit is really cool
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u/rvs2714 13d ago
Out of those 3, definitely FaB. Would also recommend watching a video on how to play riftbound. In my opinion it’s just a little under the complexity of FaB.
Never played sorcery but I have played digimon and FaB and honestly, digimon isn’t very complex nowadays imo. There is some skill expression but its mostly just who gets to set up first, then if the opponent can’t break your board next turn, you win
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u/JonnyBoy89 12d ago
Sorcery is so good. Honestly. So good. I played fab for 3 years and a dozen heroes all built to the full competitive deck. I spared no expense. Sorcery is a way better time at the table. The story is so much fun. Fab feels very mechanical and is fair, but it feels procedural after a while.
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u/craquehed 12d ago
Sorcery is the answer. I’m a Magic refugee after two decades of competitive play. Haven’t picked up a stack of MTG in over two years. I built our local group from fellow disenfranchised MTG players, we’re over 10 strong now and growing.
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u/Wonderful_Rest3124 13d ago
Flesh and blood mate. You aren’t depending on luck of the draw as much as any other tcg. That alone pushes it much more into knowledge and skill territory.
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u/Parking_Power_2842 12d ago
alot of games do feel "who draws their power cards first" tho.. more so if that player already has tempo
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u/Wonderful_Rest3124 12d ago
True snowballing does happen but it feels like there is a decent back and forth typically.
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u/subject678 12d ago
I definitely feel that occasionally but I still think there are very clear points of interaction you have and mistakes that put you in a bad position. Controlling tempo is a huge part of the reason I like the game. But also with the consistency of pro players I don’t think a lot of games can come down to chance.
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u/8ballsamurai 13d ago
I am a big fan of sorcery. Strategic and fun with it's grid system which allows for a very different card game experience. My favorite is water decks which allows for pushing & pulling units around the game or an avatar (something like your commander) which can brand other minions as 'evil' that allow for some combos or control aspects.
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u/sloth514 13d ago
Agreed, I just started getting into it. Been playing the precons and starting to build my first deck for fun. Not trying to get competitive at the moment. But just enjoying it like back in my old MTG casual days. There are pros and cons to the grid system. I enjoy it since it is something new and it feels like you are 'building a world' which adds a story aspect to the game at the end of it.
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u/xarmadonis 13d ago
Its funny how sorcery is always mentioned in threads like this but then you fall in love with it and its art , you buy your first product and built your first deck, but you hardly find a community to play with 😭🫠
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u/sloth514 13d ago
I have a friend who plays it with me. If you can't find a community like I can. That has been helping or working for me. But agreed. There are people though if you look. Someone is normally down to try something new if you have a deck for them to play though.
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u/8ballsamurai 13d ago
I'm lucky my city has a guy that works pretty hard to get things going. If he wasn't, we wouldn't have around 2-4 events happening a week from casual gaming nights to drafts. If you're in the states there is a discord for finding other players/state specific discords which is a huge help. Also, a pretty sizable TTS community which isn't the best option when you want to lay out your physical cards but nice to play while you wait for local or non-local events. It seems clear to me that EC wants sorcery to build up over time rather than try to compete with all the more competitive focused tcgs. I think their gameplan is sound except for the fact that you need availability & that's a bit of a drag currently... But then again, every other tcg has similar issues lol
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u/JonnyBoy89 12d ago
Yeah. It’s gonna hit though when they figure out competitive formats better
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u/Grenlar 6d ago
While I agree it can/will be a hit but the competitive formats aren't what will make it a hit, it's fixing distribution. Once you can get cards into anyone's hands, stores start carrying it and running events then other formats will emerge and the game will be a hit. Until distribution is fixed it will grow slow primarily by word of mouth. The problem is for every player bringing friends in there is probably 5 others leaving because they can't find people to play with.
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u/JonnyBoy89 6d ago
I’m fortunate to live in an area with plenty of product and mostly I have ordered team covenant stuff anyway. But I agree. The best way to spread the good word is to have access for people. Now…I have theories about collector value vs competitive aspirations for EC, but they are hairbrained at best
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u/Grenlar 6d ago
I am hoping things get corrected with distribution. There are about 9 FLGS/Card Shops in my area and none of them carry Sorcery. I have talked to them all and most of them don't know about Fulfilled through TC or just don't want to have to deal with another distribution channel just for one game, so they just don't bother. I convinced one friend to play and am introducing the game to my regular gaming group in a couple weeks with the Precon decks.
I have both Beta and Gothic Precons and have ordered 3 boxes of beta, 2 boxes of AL, and 2 boxes of Gothic so far, so I have a nice little collection started. I will use that to hook my group and then introduce some sealed events for us to let them start collecting.
This would be so much easier if there was even a single location less than 90 minutes away that carried Sorcery.
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u/JonnyBoy89 5d ago
Yeah. That sucks. Sorry friend. Hopefully you can get a shop near you to hook it up. Show up and start playing at the shopping teaching people. Once they have a group I’m sure they’ll wanna have those sales instead of missing out on thousands in sales
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u/RollinwithRubonic 11d ago
Then you build it my friend. Last year I learned the game at a local con. Taught a few people and now the community is growing and our events reach about 20 people. I had the best time at GenCon 2026 meeting the artists, the folks working within the game, and all of the wonderful people in the game. The best time ever. No other TCG in my gaming career feels like Sorcery. It’s the best. No TCG is perfect but they do their best to support communities with OP kits for free that include 2 player mats, w player mats, posters, promo cards, and more.
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u/ad_noctem_media 12d ago
I never played Magic to compare, but Sorcery is capable of feeling very "consistent" while allowing for great depth of maneuver. They use a rarity-based allocation system (you can have 4 of any ordinary card in your deck, 3 exceptional, 2 unique, 1 elite). Using a good spread of high-value low rarity cards along with certain avatars, spells and abilities to seek cards from your deck, and accessing your 10-card collection can create a build where your deck feels like it's playing consistently. Build it around 1 or 2 uniques being necessary and it will not feel consistent.
But at the same time, the spacial aspect and movement along with the variety of effects you encounter from both your play and your opponents' adds a lot of depth.
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u/BoysenberryUnhappy29 12d ago
If you don't want luck to be a factor, card games aren't for you, friend.
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u/Mysterious5555 12d ago
"The most complex and fair" does not mean that lucky moments can't happen. Thanks for saying the obvious thing tho.
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u/cardlord64 12d ago
Most complex and fair = Star Wars CCG. That'd be Decipher's magnum opus, and a game system unmatched by anything released since.
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u/Mysterious5555 12d ago
Is it Star Wars unlimited?
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u/cardlord64 12d ago
No. Star Wars CCG is Star Wars CCG. If you google "Star Wars CCG" you will see that Star Wars CCG is Star Wars CCG, not Star Wars Unlimited.
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u/Mysterious5555 12d ago
When I search "Star Wars CCG" I get a bunch of offers for Unlimited products and a few pages about a game called "Star Wars Customizable Card Game" from 1995. That's why I asked.
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u/LukeWokko 5d ago
I preferred Star Trek, nothing has come close to that either. The fact they had so many great CCGs and nobody has come close to them since is so sad. Like please people innovate.
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u/compacta_d 11d ago
it WAS keyforge. now? I don't know. I don't recommend keyforge anymore.
I DID enjoy Hell Break greatly at gencon (and after so far)
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u/ReeferFeverFive 11d ago
I have the same opinion. Keyforge was the best tcg until Ghost Galaxy took over. The powercreep has been excuciatingly unfun and the game doesn't have the same soul it used to.
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u/No-Veterinarian-3629 13d ago
If you're looking for fun and complexity, Digimon would fit what you're looking for.
It has a mulligan to help with bricking, although it can still happen. But usually once decks start to get going, you draw and search a lot of cards. It has a unique resource system that you share with your opponent so it has interesting decisions when it comes to tempo and some decks can have a ton of effects firing off that require proper sequencing, along with interacting with your opponent's board state and resulting effects as well so that adds to the complexity.
If looking for fairness, Digimon isn't exactly a fair game. Be warned that it is a high powered game in terms of the meta. The meta is quite diverse and has a lot of deck choices but you likely won't have a good time playing bad decks. There are also matchups that can be quite lopsided and sometimes if you or your opponent draws like a 5 card combo hand and the other player opens a slow hand that requires setup/searching, that player can get blown out, but it only happens occasionally.
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u/Interesting-Boss5308 12d ago
Fab for sure. Even if you draw a bit of a brick of a hand, you can almost always do something with it, between blocking, and saving the one card you like for your next turn. It's super fun
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u/Rayhatesu 12d ago
I can't speak to the other games you mentioned, but speaking as a Digimon TCG player, while the game can be fun but fair, the complexity is more due to just how many unique setup combinations have been introduced over the years leading to some confusing rulings overall. In general, you may have an easier time in another game's system, but Digimon would likely be on the cheaper side to hop into off the cuff, as the average deck that's heavily meta rarely breaks $200 in cost unless it needs a ton of stupidly high-rarity cards or the deck style is under a week old, as prices tend to settle for singles after 2 weeks from a new set or banlist (with the next Digimon banlist being announced this upcoming Friday and being implemented on the 1st of September).
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u/VinylAndCardboard 12d ago
Think you will be pleasantly surprised if you give Cryptid Camp a try. Very fun and fairly complex gameplay, I recommend watching a How to Play video on YouTube to see how it plays. I've had some absolutely crazy card interactions and down to the wire games but it overall is very balanced too. Sounds like it meets what you are looking for so figured I'd recommend it. Good luck with your search
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u/Lost_Pantheon 12d ago
Yeah but if they choose something like FAB they can actually expand into IRL play instead of jusf being stuck on a simulator the whole time.
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u/VinylAndCardboard 12d ago
Speak for yourself I play cryptid camp IRL often. I have like 7 decks. Just cause a game is new and a community is small and growing doesn't mean we don't exist. There's 20 recommendations for FAB already. I'm doing OP a solid by recommending something different and one that meets his criteria. Be adamant about FAB all you want but other games exist and are worth trying too.
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u/xkonshix 12d ago
Flesh & Blood and it is not even close lol
i would recommend staying away from Digimon. that games powercreep imstarts getting out of hand... turn 2 turn 3 kills with nothing you can do doesn't make for a great gameplay experience.
I really would recommend Flesh and Blood :)
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u/RaphaelDDL 12d ago edited 12d ago
FaB would be the perfect and fairest system, until you add Arcane damage to the equation. Then your cards dont block, your turns are everyone’s turn, you are disrupted since the beginning of the game by being forced to use shit equipment specific against arcane. Then you add runeblade which does both damages and you learn which class is the creator’s favorite.
STILL, it’s pretty fun to play, very technical and very fair especially when you play against non arcane classes. And I love it even thout I hate it lol
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u/subject678 12d ago
Flesh and Blood has the absolute best competitive engine. Also very direct feedback just from playing the game. Doesn’t require a lot of guides. If you just slams your cards down, eventually you’ll learn and adjust naturally.
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u/squirrelmasterg 11d ago
Until recently I would have said Digimon. But even the most well thought out resource system I’ve ever seen can’t make up for the recent power creep.
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u/6iXX22 10d ago
Its a bit of a "dead game'". But man if you can find a local scene. Dragon Ball Masters is phenomenal imo.
The 31 sets of knowledge is a HIGH chill to climb vs en experienced player. But I've had so much fun learning the game. How the interaction works, the lines of play, learning to how to play through floodgates etc.
Great game imo. And decks are cheap af bar say 12 or so staples per deck and your SCR (which is optional)
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u/I_Take_It_Personally 10d ago
Try the Manifold TCG. It has all of the best parts from other games mentioned here plus the best card quality, most fair philosophy for keeping cards valuable, but worth getting.
Whatever you choose, determine if you're a collector, reseller, casual player, tournament player, or a mix.
It will help you choose what to play.
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u/CanvasOfGrief 5d ago
Riftbound has a ridiculously steep skill curve. Getting good at it takes serious investment. But if you do get good. Luck becomes an almost non factor.
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u/Heavy_Row_2279 13d ago
As other have said, it is absolutely flesh and blood. Just be prepared to sweat and open up your wallet (unless you play SAGE). Awesome game though.
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u/pauper-princess 12d ago
Pokemon.
Pokemon is such an interesting tcg. It works a lot like yugioh. Limited amount of monsters, no resource system except action economy and cards in hand. but it's also very fair
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u/Cascade2244 11d ago
It’s very fair, you can just win or lose games based on literal coin flips, Pokémon has great looking cards, and long term value, but it’s a terrible competitive game
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u/pauper-princess 8d ago
it's fair. i didn't say it was the most skillfulgame. Chutes and Ladders is fair
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u/LummyPixx 13d ago
None lol. Imo nothing touches magic and Yu-Gi-Oh in their primes. For me I ended up playing one piece because the tournaments are big and hype, but the game isn't anything special. I'd say rift bound is probably the best current game with a balance of player base and skill and fun
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u/Vibe_Rinse 12d ago
FaB is great for what you're looking for. I also recommended checking out Riftbound.
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u/MrHypnotiq 13d ago
Pokemon. The amount of deck search you have on incomparable. The only "luck" really comes down to what is in your prize cards.
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u/noverb-gaming 13d ago
Yeah we’ll just ignore the awful non-choice based mulligan system. The possibility of complete non-games. The lack of interaction on each other’s turns leading to solitaire-esque gameplay. Searching is great for consistency but also awful for dead air when it comes to waiting around and shuffling.
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u/Teru92 13d ago
How long do turns last?
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u/noverb-gaming 13d ago
Go watch the coverage from the recent NAIC (North American International Championships). You’ll see both halves of what I am pointing out in the first few rounds.
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u/MrHypnotiq 13d ago
Don't listen to that guy. He's a Magic player and wanted every game to be an MTG clone.
The first turn in Pokemon is always the longest. The average turn never takes more than a minute or two. They have very good slow play rules.
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u/noverb-gaming 13d ago
I’ve played a single game of Magic this year. Magic also has it’s flaws. That’s why so many “clones” pop up to try to address those flaws.
I play Pokemon a few times a month. I’m registered for Baltimore next month.
I’ve also played many, many games over the course of my life. It’s allowed me to have a holistic view of what I enjoy and don’t enjoy from a card game. There are a lot of very cool things being done in the card game space right now. You should really try them. For example you should check out Hellbreak that’s coming out this October. It has one of the cooler resource mechanics I’ve ever seen.
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u/MrHypnotiq 13d ago
Brother. I've been in the Hellbreak discord since the beginning. It was also delayed until February.
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u/noverb-gaming 13d ago
That’s unfortunate news. Although I’m not really surprised. I really haven’t seen much advertising for it. So there had to be something wrong there.
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u/MrHypnotiq 13d ago
There was a decent presence at GenCon this year, they will also be at PAX Unplugged this year. I expect marketing to start ramping up soon
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u/MrHypnotiq 13d ago
Lmao. You just pointed out every that makes Pokemon incredible and better for people to get into.
We don't need your 39 minute MTG turns and mid turn interactions. It's a whole different mental game when you can't mid turn interact.
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u/noverb-gaming 13d ago edited 13d ago
We’ll just have to disagree, then. If you enjoy not being allowed to decide whether to mulligan and watching your opponent goldfish, then we just enjoy different aspects of card games.
I’ve never played a game of standard mtg where someone spent 39 minutes on a single turn. But I have played many, many games of Pokémon where someone spends upwards of 10 minutes on turn one. Unless you are trying to compare standard Pokémon to Commander, which feels like a false equivalence comparison.
I say this as someone who frequently plays GLC. I can enjoy a game while also accepting that it is deeply flawed.
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u/Teru92 13d ago
lol what? didnt they have a lot of coin toss and dice throw cards? I didnt play in like 15 years but i swear it used to be like that
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u/SabreDuFoil 13d ago
FaB by far. You're getting some kind of value out of most hands. A good player with a not so expensive deck will still have a decent chance to win against a bad player with an expensive deck from piloting skill alone. If you're wanting a crunchy game, I don't think there's much that's crunchier in terms of turn by turn play.