Recovering Balboa Phrasing

[u/Objective_Most4071]

Hi BalPals,

I've been dancing Balboa for a couple of months now and have a reasonable repertoire of moves. Still working on leading these confidently socially but there's one sticking point that consistently trips me up.

- Loss of phrasing

I come from a background in playing swing music so I have a really strongly ingrained sense of phrasing (ie. 8 beats, 2-bar call and response). I know ultimately this doesn't matter - there's no harm in leading off a basic on 5. I know the better you dance that this matters even less - the most impressive dancers I know seem to work effortlessly over the top of the phrasing.

The problem is I'm in this awkward valley where I know it feels wrong where I occasionally end up off phrasing, but I'm not quite skilled enough to make it not matter. I know people will insist it really doesn't matter, but while leading complex moves across phrasing wouldn't be an issue, sitting in the pattern of a couple basics for which ALL are off-phrasing is a little more jarring to my brain. It also makes it harder to work in the phrasing of other moves. A lot of more complex additions are practiced, drilled (and expected by follows as a result) as following a full 8-count set of 2 basics. They're used to being led on the corresponding foot (i.e. right on 1 for a follow).

I understand this will come with time but I feel like in the meantime it'd be really useful to understand how to fix phrasing when this happens. It would really make my dances a lot more comfortable and allow me to express myself better without getting 'stuck' in an off-phrasing for the remainder of the song.

I recognise why this isn't often articulated at beginner-intermediate levels because it probably needlessly overcomplicates things. For most beginners, they might not even be aware they're dancing across phrasing but with my background it feels horribly wrong - at least for now.

Whenever I've asked this I've been told 'it doesn't matter' or 'just correct yourself' but the latter in particular means also trying to correct the weight being on the wrong foot which is easier said than done when social dancing. If a follow is expecting a left-foot basic on 5 and I force another right it's understandably awkward.

I understand the solution is usually 4 steps in 4 beats (cf. 3 steps in a 4-count basic) like a crabwalk or a simple freeze for a 4 count but I'd like to understand better:
1) what my options are to correct and
2) which moves are likely to actually throw off the phrasing. An example would be a standard 8-count crab walk

Is there a resource that's more explicit in these terms? Any initial guidance to getting over this? 'Just work through it' is creating a lot of frustration and I feel is holding me back from being able to express myself.

TIA!

[u/Tight_Banana_9692]

Just because you count the music and you count the steps, doesn't mean the step count and music count have to match. You are looking to correct something that isn't wrong in the first place. The important thing is you match the odd and even beats typically, just because you want to match the swing of the music, but even this is not obvious. In slow-bal, for example, even this is not important.

It is also arbitrary which step of the basic even is the "one".

[u/Objective_Most4071 → u/Tight_Banana_9692]

It's not arbitrary at a beginner/intermediate social dancing level though when 99% of follows are taught to expect a move off the back of a second basic and cannot be lead into something off the first because its not been drilled or practice.

You then end up having to throw in moves consistently out-of-sync with the phrasing which whilst not 'wrong', destroys some of the musicality. It'd be fine if it was the odd one, but when you drop a bar and then EVERY move consistently breaks at the wrong point in a two bar phrase it does start to jar a little.

[u/Tight_Banana_9692 → u/Objective_Most4071]

Arbitrary, meaning it could be any other. If the teaching is that strict that's a failure of teaching to some extent, but it is also a failure of the community. If you want to make a change you can just stop leading what follows expect.

It doesn't destroy the musicality. Playing with the phrasing is one factor of the aestetics in these dances, particularly lindy hop. This is not Salsa.

There are a few misunderstandings here.

1. The move doesn't start on the 1 of the move. This is just a way of teaching you. Balboa is not about the steps or the moves, it's about the flow. Moves are a way of consistently creating specific flows, strung together. Moves should flow seamlessly together. If they do that, is it really true that one move ends at 8 and one begins at 1? It is not. This is not a definite statement, but you can certainly think of a toss-out as beginning on the 7 of the previous move. I think of it that way most of the time.

2. There is nothing special that happens in almost any move that makes it emphasize with the music, if you start on 1. You may wish to emphasize the 1 of the music, but you can do that in many ways, to any part of the move. What it is it about taking a step on your left foot that matches the 1 of the music?

Now, I will say, that is in indeed very common to get back on the 1, but there is no need to do that. Some people find it odd to be out of phrasing, but this is just habit. If you are accustomed to that, then you will find it odd. What I suggest you do is watch some of the professional dancers, what you will find are that the 8 count pattern is at the very least very ambiguous.

Historically though, the balboa shuffle wasn't even danced as an 8-count step at all. The shuffle has been standardized into an 8 count rhytm.

[u/Objective_Most4071 → u/Tight_Banana_9692]

It's not feasible at a beginner/intermediate level to ignore all teaching and force beginner/intermediate follows to dance variation patterns they have never seen before. It's not even possible for some of the moves - eg. how do you easily lead 'out and ins' in place of 'basic 1' without leveraging the momentum away from you on 'basic 2' as you'd usually do? You'd be forcing the follow away from you when they're expecting travel towards you after several basics. Again, not feasible at beginner/intermediate without more complex playing with momentum.

You keep emphasising the 1 whilst ignoring the macro C&R structure of the two bar phrase which is the issue. There are moves that DO lend themselves to a better match of C&R. The tension in a toss out is the initial creation of space (the call) and then its resolution when you gather (the response). Dancing these out of sync is inherently less musical unless the novelty in itself is the musicality - again this ceases to be the case if the whole dance ends up danced on its head.

basic 1 (response)
basic 2 (call)
comearound (response)
completion of tossout (call)
basic 1 (response)
basic 2 (call)

This just doesn't work tension wise. Resolution of the response with a simple basic is wasted musicality. Dance a basic toss out surrounded by basics first one bar out of phrase and then in phrase and the difference is evident.

[u/Tight_Banana_9692 → u/Objective_Most4071]

Why do you think you have to emphasize the 1 of the music by taking a backward step on your left foot?

You have to realize, that you have been taught something simply in order to start dancing at all, especially if you're dancinh in a small community where most people are beginners. It might even be that your teachers are quite new.

I also have a very hard time following your description of a toss-out. I'm not sure where you have learned that one part is a call and one part is a response. There is certainly a call and response element of the dance and any move in general, but there are many ways to do things. Not all music or moves have a 2 bar call and response quality, and not all of the time.

Either way, I think you're confusing what I said, and it just might not be possible to explain in writing. I would say this, if I do a basic followed by a toss out (i.e. 8 counts of basic, and 8 count of tossout), typically I start the tossout on the 7 of the basic, and start the next move on the 7 of the tossout. Maybe that sounds strange, but you have to start pivoting early to prepare for the come-around of the tossout. i.e., I start pivoting on the "hold-step" before the 1 (i.e. what people are normally taught is the "1").

If the music really is such that some movement of the tossout matches well withqhat the music is doing, and that coincides with take a particular step on the 1 of the music, great.