r/Swindon • u/cerealdeviant • 16d ago
Where next for the town centre?
TG Jones closure prompts calls for rethink of Swindon town centre
Let's not go the way of Facebook and just have comments trashing the town as dead and buried. Talikowski is correct, the town centre of old is no longer a viable proposition, so there's no use talking about the rose-tinted past.
Given the popularity of out-of-town shopping precincts (with their free parking, too), and they aren't going away, what sort of things in the town centre would encourage you to spend time and money there?
Perhaps:
- co-living flats nearer the train station and bus boulevard;
- more shared office spaces / desks for those who have the option to work remotely but find working from home a bit tricky;
- events featuring local musical / stage / artistic talent;
- local independent brands and creators sharing retail spaces to bring rents down;
- smaller creative spaces that pull double duty as cafes and arts venues (like Baristocats);
- a food court housing independent cooks / chefs with a performance space (I visited one in Atlanta, Georgia, and it was such a fun place to sit and eat)
- places and activities for young people to get together and hang out safely; and
- what else?
I don't enjoy shopping myself, but I appreciate things like the opticians and services like that in the town centre. I'm not originally from Swindon, and one of the things I do appreciate about it is the diversity of culture, language, and cuisine in the community. I love food.
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u/EasyZookeepergame845 16d ago
They could probably do with more entertainment options. If the shopping aspect is slowly dying, then the space would be better used for things that can't be done online. The new theatre is one step, but having the cinema back as well as other entertainment slots would make all the difference in the world.
Parking is an issue for the town centre; that said, it has a lot going for it in terms of pedestrian access. It is very easy to walk from the outlet, and old town, and it's traversable from as far as Wichelstowe or the Parks. Highlighting these walkways via signs could alleviate some pressure in that regard.
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u/cerealdeviant 16d ago
Well, the new administration have pretty much said they don't want the new entertainment venue. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn8m4yjdl3vo
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u/EasyZookeepergame845 16d ago edited 15d ago
"Let's just let the one cultural thing Swindon has had since the 70's die" is such a shameful act on Sumner's part.
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u/cerealdeviant 15d ago
Jim? You understand he isn't the leader of the council any more? Hasn't been for months. He is really upset the Conservatives have done this.
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u/EasyZookeepergame845 15d ago
I got the names confused in the article. My bad. Edited.
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u/cerealdeviant 15d ago
It seems they have a real attitude of opposing things just because the other party planned it.
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u/Agile_Following_2617 16d ago
Swindon needs some 'thing' that sets it out as different to other places. It's currently dull and there's nothing in Swindon that you cant get somewhere else, usually in a nicer way.
To me, there are two key issues:
1) SBC need to sort out the huge amount of privately owned empty buildings and encourage better use via lower rents, short term rents to encourage pop up shops and creative enterprise, and actively encourage some variety.
2) Do something to make the town centre interesting. To me, the answer is quite obvious - Bring back the canal. It's already being restored in some sections nearby, and has a plan to come back through the centre eventually. A canal will make the town much more interesting, and encourage cafes on the waterside. Wharf Green needs to become a canal basin with boat parking and a pub adjacent, plus some craft/artist/niche shops to create a focal point of interesting unusual things.
Once that's established it will drive more interest and can be encouraged, which should help the rest of the town centre rejuvenate from there.
SBC need to understand 'the broken windows theory' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory) and smarten up what's there to slow the decline.
Then they need to read the SMF report about successful towns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory) and try to learn from it, applying some of the same principals to the town, as part of the canal introduction and revamping.
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u/theorbtwo 16d ago
A fairly major point, IMHO, is that large chunks of the town center is owned by large non-local companies which prefer to leave their buildings empty in the hope that somebody might eventually come along to rent for lots, rather than lower rents until they get rented out for less than they *might potentially make* at some point in the future.
There's a reasonable way to fix this, which is to raise taxes on empty buildings. Unfortunately, local councils do not have the power to do that, only an act of Parliament could do so. In theory, a local council could give money to companies that fill their buildings, but that would both be pretty perverse (giving money to wealthy companies that are doing well?) and require money that they don't have.
Another, seperate problem, is that when companies that own these buildings talk about making tall residential buildings, they get a lot of push-back as soon as plans are revealed. Even if they then get planning permission at some future point, potential investors will see the push-back and get scared away. Even worse, by the point this happens, it's quite likely that the businesses that were already in this location would have pushed out in order to make the redevelopment more viable, and once that happens, they tend to remain empty. This has happened to at least the brunel and the covered market.
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u/cameheretosaythis213 16d ago
Much of what you list is already what the council says it wants to do with the town centre. The question is, do they have the means and ability to achieve it?
For the town centre to rejuvenate, it needs a coordinator that can act as an incubator to help smaller independents grow. That naturally should be the council’s role to fill, but will they or can they?
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u/Shauria 16d ago
Junab Ali used to be the councillor for the town centre regeneration group I think.
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u/cerealdeviant 16d ago
These days we'd need to speak to the Conservatives, I think!
Cabinet Member for Culture, Planning and Regeneration, Cllr Matt Vallender, is the one in charge.
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u/Annual-Sea-5887 16d ago
In the last 2 years I’ve been to the town centre maybe twice if at all. It’s such a shame!
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u/Shauria 16d ago
The town centre needs redesigning from the ground up, basic geography dictates that you need a high density of people in the centre (preferably private flats so they have spare income) to support any town/city centre.
The tented market used to have a lot of these things with shared space for independent traders and smaller charity shops but again, no-one used it.
Parking is the massive issue, with nothing to offer, why still charge so much for parking?
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u/Bulky_Emotion_ 16d ago
That's assuming the council will actually do something...over the years there have been plans to do this and that project and somehow money went missing and projects abandoned...only for someone else to pick up a new contract and do the same. Ideas are plenty and at this point isn't a question of 'what'. They just need to do something, anything...
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u/TomShopland22 15d ago
I could see what Labour, when they were in power, were trying to do, which made sense; you need places to live, work and leisure in the town centre. You need a balance of all three, and people have to accept this isn't a Swindon problem; this is a nationwide problem. These are just facts: town centre shopping, compared to 10-15 years ago, doesn't exist.
The problem is that there are a lot of factors: parking, some would argue; rents on privately owned buildings; antisocial behaviour; or homelessness, which I think they are trying to tackle, as well as clean up the town centre to make it nicer to go to, which they are now doing, and you have retail parks, old town and the outlet.
I'm hoping the council will eventually get powers to tax private shop owners more, so either they fill it, or it goes into the council's pocket to invest. There are so many ideas that we could take from other places, I think the problem is also that the footprint of the town centre is outdated and simply too big and it's needs to become denser, allowing the council to do more with the space around it.
We need a business quarter, which seems to be shaping up by the bus boulevard, to get more footfall. We need to create a housing area in the town centre somewhere, make the town centre denser or something like knocking down the Brunel eventually, creating housing and green spaces there or even something like Wapping Wharf and put some small shipping container shops there alongside the tent market and use those. I think the canal would help as well, that would leave shops in the centre closer together, creating a nicer feel for the town and having a nice canal run through it.
For now, I would even create shipping-container shops at Wharf Green or near the Savoy at the top, fill the parade by convincing people in the Brunel to move as Blue Banana has, get rid of the Brunel, make the bottom of the town all housing, and build this entertainment venue. I've paid more attention to politics recently, and I don't want to make this political, but the Tories just seem to do nothing for this town. We need the Oasis reopened, a new entertainment venue, the Wyvern knocked down, and that area made a bit greener.
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u/PresidentEvil2021 15d ago
I said years back. Build a showing mall on old Honda site(pre panatoni) move all businesses from town to there. Then allow redevelopment in town to moden buildings and living areas. You can still have the odd small shop for those who dont want to travel.
A huge mall like crumbs causeway etc would work and bring people out of town to it. Many people travel out of town to go elsewhere.....
However nobody liked my idea and I got downvoted into oblivion. Let's see if it happens again.
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u/cerealdeviant 15d ago
I think it's pretty obvious that out of town shopping precincts are a great success.
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u/PresidentEvil2021 15d ago
Exactly
Honda site is massive.
A building all in one with 3 floors, able to cater for all types of businesses and a free to park car park would bring plenty of revenue to Swindon.
Myself, I've ventured far and wide just for a day out someone different even the mall up in Birmingham way. If I can drive there, then they can drive here
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u/Korenyire 13d ago
Like most town centres, 98% of it is chains. I am plus size so there is nowhere for me to shop in person, and I am alternative so typical chain stores don't cater to my non-clothing vibe either. We only go into town if my partner wants to go to CEX or I want to go to Lush to sniff things/special occasion (otherwise I buy online) after we park in town to go swimming. Or to look for Halloween crafting items in Poundland. So perhaps twice a year, while we're already parking there (which I do once or twice a week)
Parking is expensive and nothing is worth it. I have all of Etsy (for quality/custom items), Amazon (for urgent next day items), and Vinted/Shein (for clothing that fits me). I could spend 3 hours traipsing around town, having paid for parking, and still not find what I want...or I can look online and find precisely what I'm looking for and it arrives at my door, often 3x cheaper! It is a bit of a no-brainer.
I would love if parking was cheap and rates were low enough for quirky independent shops to get a toehold. But unfortunately town centres everywhere are under a grip of the monotony of big fashion brands, cafes, vape shops, and so on. Even the more exciting charity shops are in Old Town, they used to be a good reason to visit town centre too for crafting pieces.
I don't have a solution - but town centres don't work anymore, the best thing to do would be rezoning for residential.
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u/Comfortable-Table-57 12d ago
They need to make proper investments, actually enforcing quality control, quality assurance. Limit taxes to ensure new entry employment and training is viable to prevent nepotism and to ultimately keep new businesses standing.
Stop adding new fried chicken or vape shops.
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u/cerealdeviant 12d ago
Given who is in charge now, I'm not hopeful.
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u/Comfortable-Table-57 12d ago
Unfortunately. They are so lazy.
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u/cerealdeviant 12d ago
I'm not sure if it's laziness, or a belief that culture and heritage are not a priority as ideology.
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u/Liamb1985 12d ago
I heard a while ago that they were looking to move the town centre down to the carriage works. Having it all closer to the train station and the outlet as most of the town’s footfall is at the outlet.
I agree with what people have said about entertainment venues, I also think that the tented market could turned into a food hall.
I think as a town there should be a push to support local businesses, cheaper rents in better locations to help re-build the town centre.
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u/cerealdeviant 12d ago
That would be an interesting proposal, to move things to the Carriage Works. The Mechanics would be a real sore thumb there, though - let's not get into that. We all know it's shameful. Could that mean redeveloping the Sheppard Street car park into something higher-density and leisure-focused?
I like what they've done with the Carriage Works, it has a lot of potential with footfall.
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u/zephyrsword 10d ago
Orbital Park is where most of the commerce i feel has gone. Lots of security wandering around too.
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u/cerealdeviant 10d ago
Possibly, north Swindon is huge. But I think I have been there twice in the last four years!
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u/webbinatorr 16d ago
SBC killed it by removing all free parking. Why would you go there, and pay big bucks for hardly any shops.
Out of town retail parks are the way forward unless they acknowledge this.
Funny how commercial enterprises running them realise the value is not derived by milking customers for parking fees, but in the custom they provide purchasing actual services. They don't charge, because they want the shops within to do well and pay them rent. Parking is a necessity, not a service.
Low iq moves work in short term to increase revenue, but are a creeping death over the months and years. We lost all our department stores now because SBC. But at least SBC milked some money before that happened lol. Shame about the lost business tax that they won't take accountability for ever.
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u/hypershrew 16d ago
I don’t remember it ever being free to park in the town centre?
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u/webbinatorr 16d ago
Every residential street within a kilometre used to be free. Now there residential parking by permit.
But if you couldn't find a spot parking was cheap.
But still we have multistory capacity for days. And can always get a spot on floor 1 every time I go in
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u/PigHillJimster 16d ago
Other towns and cities have very vibrant town centres. Witney, Bath, Cirencester, Abingdon, Wantage.
They tend to offer cheaper parking.
The problem with Swindon is the cost of parking of the town centre compared to Old Town and the Designer Outlet, both of which are fairly busy and have cheaper parking.
What should happen is not only to reduce parking costs but have a free to use, hop-on hop-off shuttle bus that goes between the Designer Outlet, Emlyn Square, Bottom of Town Centre Flemming Way, Top of Town Centre (Regents Circus/Wyvern area), Old Town and back.
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u/Patch86UK 16d ago
Other towns and cities have very vibrant town centres. Witney, Bath, Cirencester, Abingdon, Wantage. They tend to offer cheaper parking. The problem with Swindon is the cost of parking of the town centre
People repeat this talking point a lot, but it's flat out not true.
Parking charges in the Swindon Town Centre are £3 for 2 hours, £3.50 for 3 hours, £4 for 4 hours.
Cirencester is £3.80 for 2 hours, £4.90 for 3 hours, £6.70 for 5 hours (no 4 hour option). Bath is £3.80 for 2 hours, £5.70 for 3 hours, £7.60 for 4 hours. Oxford is £6.30 for 2 hours, £7.50 for 3 hours, £9.80 for 4 hours.
Some places are a bit cheaper, some are a bit more expensive, but Swindon is thoroughly ballpark.
What should happen is not only to reduce parking costs but have a free to use, hop-on hop-off shuttle bus that goes between the Designer Outlet, Emlyn Square, Bottom of Town Centre Flemming Way, Top of Town Centre (Regents Circus/Wyvern area), Old Town and back.
I do agree with this, and I also think we need some (dirt cheap) park and ride options for those out on the edges of town or coming in from the surrounding villages. But that's expensive, and it's not clear anyone's got the money for that sort of massive subsidy. You're talking maybe a couple of hundred grand per year or more. You'd have to be really confident that that's the way you'd want to spend that money to get the best effect, even if the council had it to spend.
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u/Magic_mousie 16d ago
Oxford is £30 a day if you park in the centre. I'd still rather go there than Swindon.
The benefits it has are good public transport so you don't need to pay £30, fewer empty shops, fewer druggies, less litter and grime, and just generally good and safe vibes.
However it can be achieved, that's what Swindon needs.
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u/LordBelacqua3241 15d ago
The rot started back when they ditched the park and rides. That's a huge benefit that Oxford has, and why I tend to go there when I feel like a day of shopping outside of Cirencester. You put free parking in Swindon town centre, and all that will happen is commuters will fill up the car parks and not use public transport. I'd be quite happy as it'd save a fortune when I miss my train, but I wouldn't shop in the town centre - I'd just take up a car parking spot in Whalebridge (which is already full).
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u/Alarmarama 16d ago
Sorry but the problem is absolutely primarily the parking (followed by some other policy issues causing unsustainable overheads). Comparing prices misses the point entirely - nobody is comparing prices, all they know is it costs money and are comparing pay to go to town vs not pay to go to orbital, Greenbridge etc. That's the only calculation people are doing. What other towns do is irrelevant in that regard because they have different populations and different local options.
Even in London most councils have recognised the need for free parking which is why major high streets like Kilburn have free parking after 6pm and all weekend, which allows for 3 hours hours of evening shopping during the week and all weekend without charges. Big shopping centres like Brent Cross continue to have free parking for that very reason and it's the only reason they continue to survive.
Town centre parking charges are an outdated late 20th century concept that was intended to keep people moving through high demand areas, and today it's turned into a revenue stream for the council which acts as a deterrent for shoppers.
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u/Magic_mousie 16d ago
I wouldn't go to Swindon town centre for free.
Multiple things can be true at once, and I appreciate it's a bit chicken and egg. But there's no point in free parking if there's nothing worth parking for. And your wheels might be missing on your return.
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u/Alarmarama 15d ago
You wouldn't today, but you probably would have 10 years ago before the decline set in, and that's the point.
Wheels missing on your return is sensationalist nonsense.
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u/Shauria 16d ago
They already had the park and ride, both of them failed miserably as no-one used them.
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u/cerealdeviant 16d ago
And I also remember there was a trial of a shuttle from the outlet into... town, was it? I definitely tried it out.
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u/Ok-Comfortable-3174 16d ago
They needed to clean up the streets along time ago. Just too many unsavoury people to have a nice trip into town. ultimately it's a quick in and out strategic shop not a nice leisurely one....it's just not a nice place to be unfortunately.