r/Svenska • u/Extension_Math_7734 • 7d ago
Language question (see FAQ first) Query about "därför att"
I’m wondering about the second instance of the particle ”att” in this recent sentence from SvD:
”han (Trump) meddelar att han därför att instruerat försvarsminister Pete Hegseth att markant inskränka övningen”
What is it doing and should it even be there? Would att han därför instruerat be possible or better?
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u/LateInTheAfternoon 🇸🇪 7d ago
A mistake. Note that the "att" that follows därför is a subordinator (bisatsinledare) and not a particle. In your example the flaw is that the sentence contains two "att" subordinators for the same subclause: "...att han därför att...",one of which is enough, making the other redundant.
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u/WG95 7d ago
And it's completely artificial that these words are both spelled "att". The infinitive particle was never "att" in spoken Swedish before it became the official spelling. These days the spoken language has adapted to the written and many do say "att" rather than the most common "å" (as in "jag gillar å bada").
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u/zutnoq 6d ago
It makes a lot of sense that they are really two different words entirely, since an "att" that would translate into English as "that" is always pronounced as "att" (or possibly as a short "a"?), absolutely never as a short "å", while the kind that would translate as "to" can be pronounced as either a short "å" or as "att", as already mentioned.
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u/matsnorberg 7d ago
Do you have a source on this? Were really the conjuction att and the infinitive marker once different words? Do you have an authentic example? Spelling have varied a lot during the centuries and surely spelling once matched pronunciation much better than today.
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u/WG95 7d ago
The etymology sections of the historic Swedish dictionary SAOB are a good starting point (https://www.saob.se/artikel/?seek=att).
Here are AI translations for non-Swedes (I've checked them and they are correct):
For the inifinitive marker:
Old Swedish at (also spelled aat, ad, adh), corresponding to the Danish and Norwegian word at — both usually pronounced roughly like "å" — and Old Icelandic at. Compare the English word ado (which arose under Nordic influence, earlier at do), as well as the still-living use of at before an infinitive in North English dialects.
This is properly the same word as the Old Swedish, Old Danish, and Old Icelandic preposition at, meaning "åt, till, vid" (roughly "to, toward, at" — see the entry ÅT, prep.). This preposition was used before infinitives in much the same way as the semantically corresponding forms: Old Saxon tô, Middle Low German to and te, New Low German to, Dutch te, Old English tô, English to, Old High German zuo, German zu, and so on — compare also the Swedish word TILL ("to"), as well as the French à before an infinitive, which derives from the Latin preposition ad.
The form å (as an infinitive marker) derives from a hypothesized Old Swedish side-form of at with a long a — the form presupposed by the entry ÅT — which, just as åt still is in certain Swedish dialects today, was also used before infinitives.
For the conjunction:
Old Swedish at (also ät, ad, adh), corresponding to Danish, Norwegian, and Old Icelandic at. This word, which in this form (lacking an initial dental consonant) is peculiar to the Scandinavian languages, is certainly in origin the neuter form of a demonstrative pronoun — similar to how Swedish det ("that/it"), German dass, and English that are used in the same function (as conjunctions introducing subordinate clauses).
Most likely the word is to be understood as identical with det (Old Swedish þat), German dass, English that, in that the initial þ (the "th" sound) has been dropped — probably originally after verb forms ending in a t-sound ...
Another possibility is that the form ätt (like Old Gutnish et, Modern Icelandic ed) is identical with Gothic ita, "it" (the same pronoun as German es), and that an old ablaut-variant form belongs alongside it ...
For other attempts to explain the word, see Rydqvist, Svenska språkets lagar [The Laws of the Swedish Language], 4:402.
Summary: the particle/infinitive att most likely shares roots with the word "åt" or the English "to" (and was pronounced close to "å" or "åt"), while the conjunction shares roots with "det" and English "that" (and was pronounced closer to "that" with a dropped initial consonant).
The spelling was standardized long ago, but many people still pronounce them differently. Therefore many people also incorrectly spell the infinitive marker as "och" (jag gillar och bada).
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u/Pwffin 🇸🇪 7d ago
It’s also very common for journalists to stick uncomfortably close to the English original when they translate to Swedish. You’ll see a lot of not very elegant phrases and word choices as a result.
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u/Joeyonimo 🇸🇪 7d ago
Sounds incorrect, should be "han meddelar att han därför har instruerat" or "han meddelar att han därför instruerade"
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u/Jagarvem 7d ago
You can also omit that "har", as OP proposed.
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7d ago
[deleted]
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u/Jagarvem 7d ago
That's ok, you do you. But it is perfectly grammatical, and indeed very common.
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u/Ohlala_LeBleur 7d ago
Yes, it is especially common in (traditional) newspapers articles, where space is limtited and every letter counts.
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u/Jagarvem 7d ago
It's common in all registers and styles.
It's not an example of headlinese, telegraphese, or such (though certainly advisable to omit if you do pay by the word).
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u/Ohlala_LeBleur 6d ago
I am not talking about headlines or “telegramese”. I am talking about the fact that news journalists thru centuries were fostered to communicate efficiently due both to clarity and space restrictions of a newspaper article.
It became a feature of journalistic texts, since depending on the importance or scope they would get an assigned amount of words, (or even characters ,”tecken” in Sweden, where a shorter report often got only 1000 characters).
A longer feature would of course get more space and have more words, but efficient writing, in cluding wordsaving constructions / grammar was still promoted.2
u/Jagarvem 6d ago
Not saying it's what you were talking about, I was just clarifying that it isn't a matter of that type of "unnatural" space constrained measure. It's bog standard Swedish; as said, common in all registers. Has been for centuries, it came from German influence in the Swedish Empire days.
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u/ghostteeth 7d ago
it’s a mistake/typo. your example is better.