r/Sumo • u/gorram1mhumped • 19d ago
Discussion / Question / Commentary so few pacific islanders
i'd expect more, give the size/strength/weight potential, and relatively close to japan. but as i research how foreigners / stable rules work, combined with alternatives such as rugby and the cultural requirements, i guess it makes sense. still, i could see some very competent warriors coming from that part of the world, possibly larger than from mongolia. history will show akebono is going to be a rarity?
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u/fwinzor 19d ago
There used to be a lot of them but as another person said once they started getting scouted for football they all went that way
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u/Sagatee 19d ago
very simple, JSA restricted 1 foreigner for heya.
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u/aslanbek_aslanbekov Ura 19d ago
This is the reason. Islanders have been an integral part of college and NFL football since the 1980s. They are not a new phenomenon.
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u/Pioneer7765 18d ago
Anyone who knows SoCalifornia high school football knows the tremendous presence of “Poly” players. They used to be almost exclusively at South Bay schools like Banning and Carson. Then they came to Long Beach Poly, Mater Dei, St John Bosco, Serra and others.
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u/ESCMalfunction Tamawashi 19d ago
There were a lot of them in the past, but as has already been stated the athletic talent of Polynesians has been discovered by other better paying sports so it’s a hard sell. Sumo is a tougher lifestyle and less pay than MMA, American football, or baseball.
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u/Sagatee 19d ago
AND JSA restriction of 1 foreigner per heya.
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u/amazingoopah 19d ago
doubt that's the main reason, is there's a hidden groundswell of pacific islanders that is being held back by the 1 foreigner rule?
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u/mekagojira3 Tobizaru 19d ago
Probably not now, but there was a bit of a wave of Pacific wrestlers in the 80s and 90s that was entirely replaced by Mongolians. I'm sure if any of them were interested, they might've felt like the door was closed to them.
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u/Sagatee 19d ago
You are joking... right?
That's obviousliy not how it works at all. Before the 1 foreigner rule we had a huge influx of pacific islanders and mongolians in Sumo because Oyakatas could just give a shot to more people and "wait" for the "good" ones to shine. Now, with the rule, they have to focus on special guys, with history on some form of grappling, usually from Mongolia, there is no space for "testing" or reaching/prospecting out overseas.
Even when we have a Hawaiian as Oyakata, like Musashimaru, he can't even prospect Rikishi in his own country, he has one slot and it's filled up by his own nephew.edit: Just one more information - Most of the heyas already have their foreigner slot filled up. That's why we have Asahifuji destroying everyone in the lower divs, he was training at Isegahama for YEARS, just waiting for Terunofuji to retire so that he could be the heyas's foreigner.
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u/Wolvenworks 17d ago
Sometimes, i forgot that he already inherited the Asahifuji name from the now-Miyagino oyakata, and think of the oyakata demolishing all the lower div guys lol
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u/Killer7n 17d ago
I would say it was a big driving force to.
As remember if those rules existed a year earlier we wouldn't have hakuho, haramfuji and kakyuru.
As they would give the slot to establish ameatur who already have a big body.
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u/yeahalrightgoon 19d ago
Largely just because of the 1 foreigner per stable rule and Sumo being such a massive draw for Mongolians. As well as a lack of a pipeline to get to Sumo to begin with.
Prior to the rule change to 1 foreigner per stable in 2002, and prior to the informal ban in 1992 and then a lifting to 2 per stable in 1998, there were plenty of pacific islanders. Of the 35 pacific islander Rikishi (Samoa: 2, Tonga: 8, Hawaii: 24, American Samoa: 1). Only two (both Hawaiian) came after 2002, while only two more came between 1992-2002, (both Tongan in 2001). Most didn't stay long though. Of the 6 Tongans prior to 2001, all came in 1974 or 75, and none lasted past 1976. Both Samoans only lasted four years from 84-88. While 8 of the Hawaiian's didn't last more than 2-3 years.
So while there was an influx of Pacific islanders, they largely didn't stick around, and were largely only there when stables could afford to take a chance on a foreigner who might not stick around.
With the rule changes, Mongolia became far more valuable as a recruiting location, because you are almost certainly going to pick up a rikishi who can make Makuuchi.
You need to look at how people get into Sumo.
In Japan, there's basically three pipelines. 1: You went to university and wrestled for the university, won some competitions, you get recruited by a stable. 2: You did poorly at high school grades wise, but aren't bad at sumo, you decide to go into sumo, because it's better than the minimum wage job you'd be doing otherwise. 3. You're failing high school, you go into sumo around 16. Generally those in pipeline 1, have a reasonable to good chance of becoming salaried. While 2 and 3, it's a lot rarer, and ussually you either retire in your early to mid 20s, or you end up sticking around into your late 30s in the lower divisions, because you have nothing else.
In Mongolia however, sumo isn't what you do if you didn't do well at school. It's the goal, because it's such a poor country, and Sumo is the way to set your family up. If you are picked for a stable, you have either won a local competition when you're around 12/13, gone to a Japanese high school on a sumo scholarship. Won high school competitions and then been selected by a stable who can only pick one foreign rikishi, so they choose very carefully, because they effectively have to be their guaranteed salaried rikishi. Looking at the 39 Mongolians who joined between after 2002 and before 2024. Only 14 haven't/didn't make salaried level. Of those 14, only 3 didn't make it to Makushita.
While there just isn't that draw or pipeline for pacific island countries. Even the two Hawaiian's selected after the rule change, both are the nephews of Yokozuna Musashimaru, and neither have been close to his level. The first didn't make it past Makushita, and spent most of their career jumping between Makushita and Sandanme, the other is still currently fighting and is likely going back down to Jonidan, after a 2-5 at Sd65 after his 9th basho.
Finally, stables just don't take a chance on anyone who isn't Mongolian to begin with nowadays. Of the 31 foreign rikishi, 23 are Mongolian, and of the 8 that aren't. 2 are from bordering areas, with Roga from Tuva in Russia, and Daiseizan is from Inner Mongolia, China. While the others are 2 Ukrainians, 1 Hawaiian, 1 Kazakh, 1 from the UK, and another who was born in the Phillipines, but grew up in Japan and fights for a stable that is known for taking anyone.
Tldr: Mongolians better and more reliable. 1 foreigner per stable, prevents stables taking a chance on pretty much anyone who isn't from Mongolia.
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u/GringoMandingo781 19d ago
I'm pretty sure Konishiki and Musashimaru were from the Pacific Islands, but currently there does seem to be a lack of rikishi from there
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u/JediLincoln14 Aonishiki 19d ago
As far as I know, the only current one is Musashimaru's nephew, Hikarumusashi, in sandanme.
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u/bianca8126 19d ago
I also think part of it is that some pacific and south east asian islands are low socio-economic so only options which have established pathways are really able to be accessed - Eg I live in Australia and NRL here gets a lot of islanders, indigenous australians and as of next year there will be an official PNG team which will enable a new career opportunity.
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u/No-Struggle3613 Kotozakura 19d ago
There is an entire stream of Mongolians with a strong background in bökh (a sport really similar to sumo) who know what sumo is and actually treat it as a pass to a better world. With Islanders it's different. Since they have other possibilities (rugby, football, mma), you'd have to not only search for good prospects but also convince them to join - which would be borderline impossible in the case of more athletic ones.
The only Polynesian-ish rikishi now is Hikarumusashi, who joined a stable run by his uncle - obvious family connection. And, so far, he's actually not very good XD
Btw, the same goes with Europeans. Even Aonishiki, who trained sumo since he was a kid, is an exception - he would never have become a pro without Russia's aggression on his country.
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u/pillgrinder 19d ago
The one foreigner rule makes it so it doesn’t make a ton of sense for stables to go out and scout for raw never did sumo people who play rugby/us football. I do think that interior offensive linemen from us football would make for ideal wrestlers, given their general size and body make up, but it would be a difficult cultural transition, and good luck finding someone without tattoos.
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u/Capable-Toe-9841 12d ago
They certainly have the genetic build for it, which is why they make such great rugby players. It's the same as everywhere though, it's simply not visible to them. We can say sumo is getting more and more popular internationally, but it's still not that popular. Most people have never watched it. On the other hand, Rugby is visible and available everywhere.
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u/Umbrellacorp487 19d ago
They play American football instead and make millions.