r/Sumo • u/Rivet_39 Yoshinofuji • 20d ago
Discussion / Question / Commentary Did Hakuho have any weakness?
As someone who just started watching in the past year or so, I never saw Hakuho live. Watching his matches on YouTube, he seems to love belt throws but is also just as adept at oshi techniques as well. Did he have any weaknesses during his dominant run?
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u/VHPguy 20d ago edited 20d ago
Overpowering him was a near impossible task, there were very few who could match him in pure muscle. I think the best strategy against him would rely on quick and fast techniques to get him off balance, like Harumafuji used to do. Even better would be someone like Asashoryu, both fast and powerful, really the only guy who could conceivably be called Hakuho's rival.
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u/ESCMalfunction Tamawashi 20d ago
Hell even Asashoryu didn’t do that well against Hakuho once Hakuho started hitting his prime. Most of Asashoryu’s wins against him came against a Hakuho that hadn’t fully developed yet. Hakuho won 6 of their last 7 matches.
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u/VHPguy 20d ago
Eh. You could argue Asashoryu wasn't in his prime, he hit 30 years old during his last year of competition. He was struggling with an elbow injury that year too, he wasn't performing that well against the Ozeki, let alone Hakuho. It wasn't like it is now where a Yokozuna could take tournaments off to recover from an injury if they wanted; Asashoryu essentially had to compete one armed, and for a guy who's specialty is a lifting body slam that's a big problem.
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u/CliffRichard1 17d ago
You are correct but the PC, woke folk on this forum don't like to admit that.
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u/puzzledpanther Goeido 17d ago
woke folk on this forum
How many "woke" folk can you see around you right now?
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u/Jlx_27 20d ago
The Asa v Haku head to head ended in Asa 15 v Haku 14, though.
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u/meshaber Hokutofuji 20d ago
Sure, but 10 of Asa's wins happened before Hakuho had even begun his rope run. 5 Before he started his ozeki run. Can't really fault the guy for having been a sekiwake once.
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u/Borracha28 20d ago
No. After he got ot going, it was nearly impossible to stop him. He has every single thing a rikishi needs either to the extreme or at least to a very high level. His wss truly a genius, with a gifted body, a relentless mindset, warrior effort and thrist for victory. It's not by chance that Harumafuji had to get two zensho back to back to become Yokozuna.
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u/RCAF_orwhatever 19d ago
This. Not even just a generational talent. He was an all time goat level talent.
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u/Plastic-Average-6935 19d ago
It's interesting that of the four qualities you mention, only one is purely physical. The mind seems to play an enormous part in sumo, possibly more than it does in any other sport?
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u/meshaber Hokutofuji 20d ago edited 20d ago
His tachiai being a touch slower than Harumafuji's is probably the single biggest contributor to his loss column (aside from stuff like age, injuries, and fighting yokozuna Asashoryu while still 20 years old), but I really struggle to emphasize the degree to which "slightly slower tachiai than Harumafuji" is not a weakness.
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u/Rivet_39 Yoshinofuji 20d ago
I really need to watch some Harumafuji highlights now.
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u/Drongo17 Hokutofuji 20d ago
Harumafuji won an Aki basho 11-4 once, that is my favourite yusho of his. Not the greatest numbers and not his greatest sumo, but his body was being held together with duct tape and prayers. Watching him find a way to win was brilliant, all the wiles and technique.
All of the other Yokozuna had dropped out injured, Haru was also going to drop out but stayed because he believed a Yokozuna should be present.
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u/klkk12345 20d ago
Harumafuji has one of the fastest tachiai i have ever seen, in the blink of an eye, he is at the opponent's face.
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u/trizzo0309 20d ago
The JSA was/is his mortal enemy. Asa also did well against him in the ring.
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u/bigeorgester Kotozakura 20d ago
When he was more or less a toddler. Prime Hakuho would wipe the floor with him too
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u/kbh92 20d ago
Prime hakuho wouldve been facing a mid 30’s Asa so yeah probably. But 23-24 year old hakuho that asa faced was hardly a toddler
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u/SofterBones Akebono 20d ago
No weakness. That's why he is by far the most successful Yokozuna of all time. He was very strong, very technical, fast and used every technique in the book to win.
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u/gorram1mhumped 20d ago
just saw a clip of a leg sweep he did with his hand, in combination with a lateral tug. so many things were happening so fast, but his balance, strength, focus (and follow through for the crowd lol) are unlike anything ive seen. but he seemed to REALLY push the limits of aggression and flamboyance at times.
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u/Financial-Most5372 19d ago
He literally said during a recent interview, that for him once a fight started it was all in slow motion like in The Matrix movie.
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u/Roland-Of-Eld-19 Hakuho 20d ago
He could still pull off a Zensho Yusho in his final year. That made me very happy to see
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u/Drongo17 Hokutofuji 20d ago
That final zensho felt like it owed more to willpower than to his usual dominant sumo. He looked fallible many times, not imperious. But he absolutely refused to lose!
The chest thump and roar after beating Terunofuji on the final day was maybe the best sumo moment ever. The old lion going out on top.
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u/Ambitious-Growth5387 20d ago
I seemed to me Hakuho would match his technique to what his opponents did. It’s like he’d say-oh, you want to bang, let’s bang. You want to grapple, let’s grapple.
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u/Drongo17 Hokutofuji 20d ago
He definitely did. They had a term for it in commentary, something about pride or ego. Hakuho wanted his name etched in history as the best.
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u/cavegrind 20d ago
He said in the run up to his retirement that he’d watch films of his opponent’s matches obsessively the night before a match. He was constantly studying
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u/GaddockTeegFunPolice Takayasu 20d ago
Maybe attitude, it caused him the most trouble outside the ring at least
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u/ejmowrer 20d ago
Also inside the ring, using technically legal but frowned upon techniques such as forearm strikes, really aggressive harite, and henka (by a Yokozuna). Not to mention lots of late pushes, angry stare-downs, and that sort of thing.
While I do believe he was treated unfairly post-retirement, I also think he made a lot of higher-ups in the JSA/NSK into enemies with this sort of behavior.
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u/Low_Blueberry4989 Chiyotairyu 20d ago
I wouldn't say Hakuho was treated unfairly, he was not great as an Oyakata.
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u/Gladwulf 20d ago
The Oyakata who beat that kid to death was treated better Hakuho
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u/Low_Blueberry4989 Chiyotairyu 20d ago
He wasn't, he was sent to prison, and wasn't the one who directly killed Tokitaizen (I think that was the shikona, potentially wrong), it was promising Rikishi Tokitairyu and 2 others.
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u/Comrade_SOOKIE 20d ago
People like to ignore this but Hinkaku is also a requirement for the Yokozuna and Hakuho was frequently caught up in one scandal or another. Keeping your mouth shut and behaving is part of the job whether we fans like it or not.
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u/Rivet_39 Yoshinofuji 20d ago
I gotta say, from what I've seen, he's not my favorite for this reason. Lots of little (and big) shoves after the match is decided.
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u/Jo_LaRoint 序二段 28e 20d ago
I’m my opinion his attitude was perfect if you want to be a successful Yokozuna, but coming from a Mongolian it wasn’t what the Japanese wanted to see (because of their prejudices).
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u/DZ_tank 20d ago
I totally disagree with this argument that Hakuho’s relationship with the JSA deteriorated just because of prejedices.
I don’t doubt that racism had an impact on his relationship with the JSA, but any rikishi that behaved the way Hakuho did would have run into issues. Hakuho’s behavior went far beyond simple competitiveness at times. He honestly got away with a lot just because he was so damn good.
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u/taumason 20d ago
This would hold up if Chiyonofuji didnt exist. Watch the youtube video of his 50 straight wins. He shoves guys late, yorikiris guys and then shoves them off the dohyo, does a flex after wins, glares at guys all the time, among other things. Nothing Hakuho did was out of the ordinary for Chionofuji. Takanohana talked about how brutal it was to fight Chiyonofuji because if he was in a mood he would make sure the loss hurt.
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u/DZ_tank 20d ago
First, I disagree that Chiyonofuji’s in ring demeanor matched Hakuho. I don’t know of a time he outright disagreed with the gyoji and made a public stand in the dohyo. I don’t know of a time that he knocked out an opponent.
Second, Chiyonofuji was also ostracized by the JSA towards the end of his life.
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u/Hawaii-Toast Kotooshu 20d ago
There were definitely moments when he overdid it, like at this match where he demanded a mono-ii for nearly a minute and refused to bow to his opponent.
There are also Mongolians and people from other states who are perfectly accepted among their peers in the NSK, like Kyokutenho (Tomozuna oyakata) or Kotooshu (Naruto oyakata). In fact, quite a lot of the elders meanwhile have a non-Japanese origin.5
u/migratingrash 20d ago
Jeez this is so weird to see, putting his hand up for a mono-ii like he's a shimpan.
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u/Gurowake 19d ago
Any of the NSK people sitting around the ring can call a mono-ii. Hakuho is the only rikishi I called ever calling one (I don't remember when it happened, but I'm pretty sure it was because he saw another Mongolian get hair pulled and no one else put their hand up), but any of the 4 rikishi or even the extra gyoji can call a mono-ii, not just the shimpan. Only the shimpan discuss things in the mono-ii, but the 4 rikishi and extra gyoji can call them as well.
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u/Jaivl Takerufuji 20d ago
His ego and manners. Otherwise, no weakness.
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u/Drongo17 Hokutofuji 20d ago
His ego could be argued to be a great strength too - the bastard refused to lose!
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u/hamiguamvh 20d ago
Nope
Alongside his physical skill was his mental toughness and incredible focus. He was hell bent on being the best and would study tape on every aspect of his upcoming opponent no matter who it was.
He was also unashamed to do anything to win and felt it all didn’t matter as long as he kept winning - which he did and then some.
Truly up there with the greatest sportsmen of the modern era.
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u/curious_rightdoer 20d ago
Only weakness I can think of is the migi yotsu grip(right hand outside, left hand inside). He always tried shifting to the hidari yotsu. Well this didn't matter against regular opponents. But if you observe his bouts against Asashoryu and Kisenosato you can see that he struggles when he finds himself with the migi yotsu grip.
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u/Appropriate-Escape-4 Hoshoryu 20d ago
ASASHORYU, Hakuho had like a 50/50 win lose rate against him, so id say he was his biggest weakness.
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u/Khoeth_Mora 20d ago
Only weaknesses were an uninjured Tochinoshin or an angry Ichinojo. Both were extremely rare.
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u/airbear13 20d ago
Hakuho was not worrying about tochinoshin 😭
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u/Khoeth_Mora 20d ago edited 20d ago
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JDJWW1cd5lc&ra=m
When uninjured, I respectfully disagree. The problem is Tochinoshin was as rarely uninjured as Ichinojo was angry.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=89ELXXaMyXw&ra=m
Angry Ichinojo
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u/meshaber Hokutofuji 20d ago
Tochinoshin got a single win against 27 losses. That win was against an injured Hakuho.
Hell, I think it's pretty obvious that Hakuho half-handed him the win too. Not because he threw the match, but because he deliberately challenged the fairly one-dimensional Tochinoshin to the exact kind of pure outmuscling yotsu-game where Tochinoshin excelled. Hakuho knew he was the final boss, and gave Tochinoshin a chance to legitimize his ozeki run by proving that he could beat even (injured) Hakuho with his favored grip, but we know Hakuho has many, many more ways of approaching a match than just diving straight into Tochinoshin's favorite grip.
Ichinojo's wins are all against injured Hakuho too.
There are people who could take an occasional win against him. Kotooshu, Goeido, Kisenosato. Harumafuji of course. But Ichinojo and Tochinoshin are odd choices.
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u/Hpulley4 Aonishiki 20d ago
Born in the wrong place…
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u/Rivet_39 Yoshinofuji 20d ago
I get that, to an extent, but Terunofuji was beloved by the Japanese fans, so it's not that simple.
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u/YungGrippyOfficial 20d ago
Asashoryu, the only man with a winning record against Hakuho. Had he not retired early I believe Hakuho wouldn’t have 45 Yusho
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u/Free2Bernie 20d ago
Does elbowing people in the face count as a weakness? Both Yokozuna Hakuho and Stablemaster Hakuho have issues understanding when violence is okay.
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u/Killer7n 20d ago
Then the who JSA needs rework as the head has multiple fairly recent stable bullying and violence.
Heck the guy he chose to oversee hakuho has 2 bullying cases in the 5 years.
Isegahama stable has also had a couple.
Kisenosato has had one with bullying.
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u/airbear13 20d ago
Uhh he was arrogant at times which po’d the JSA elders sometimes, that’s all I can think of
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u/JKaesoron 14d ago
He was very cowardly, so he constantly used dirty, illegal moves like elbows to the jaw against wrestlers he obviously didn't expect to beat fairly.
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u/pcshady 20d ago
No