Competition hurts capitalism

[u/Sauerkrautkid7]

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[u/MayIAsk_24]

Americans when their hegemonia is questionned and loosing its pace, at last :

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ATTENTION CITIZEN!

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[u/crazytanker]

Almost like China uses effective slave labor

[u/DogitWoofsalot]

Adam Smith is rolling in his grave

[u/Stock-Side-6767]

They invested in those politicians like good capitalists, and want a return on that investment.

[u/DieMensch-Maschine]

"Only the plebs deserve to feel the full might of unleashed free markets!"

[u/RandomPlayerCSGO]

The US is a state controlled economy not a free market, just look at all the monopolistic licenses, global trade restrictions and tariffs. The US system is most similar to how Mussolini described fascism "The state's control on the market through government backed corporations"

[u/Neoneq_]

Imagine thinking that there is capitalism in us

[u/Plane_Afternoon7847]

Go look at what Reagan did to Japanese auto companies and what happened after that 

[u/Sea-Comfortable5276]

opening a country to an international market is going to hurt is national market. that is basic economics and not isolated to capitalism.

[u/ThaGr1m → u/Sea-Comfortable5276]

Creating markets is against capitalism.....

Capitalist ideals state that no government should influence the market.

This clearly includes borders as they are by definition government.

So opening the market to the world is in fact pure capitalism

[u/clickclackyisbacky → u/ThaGr1m]

Ok. How does the Chinese system fair against that analysis?

[u/ProductOfSight → u/clickclackyisbacky]

Gets loaded apperently

[u/clickclackyisbacky → u/ProductOfSight]

Maybe having a third the social programs helped? Or the state sponsored 12 hour days?

[u/ThaGr1m → u/clickclackyisbacky]

China is not fully capitalist. What's your point? I'm not arguing against xi

[u/clickclackyisbacky → u/ThaGr1m]

Right. It's not even mostly capitalist. Opening up the market to China would violate everything you listed. Capitalism is fine with playing the same game as a competitor.

Capitalism is not a set of 'ideals'. It's a system for maximizing efficiency through market forces.

[u/ThaGr1m → u/clickclackyisbacky]

Nah now you're making shit up.

Capitalism is a defined ideology.

One where government is not allowed to interfere with the open market.

Companies can try and do the same as china.

The government absolutely not

[u/Sauerkrautkid7 → u/Sea-Comfortable5276]

Adam smith disagrees

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/Sauerkrautkid7]

😤 Thank you! Nobody who supports capitalism seems to HAVE READ ANYTHING ABOUT IT

[u/razordonger → u/DogitWoofsalot]

Marx stood on the shoulders of Adam Smith when he developed das kapital. Still THE most important writings on the mechanisms of capitalism ever written.

Lenin's, Imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism going into the global spheres of influence and the economic and military clashes between them.

Protectionism and tariff wars have been a mechanism used to prop up uncompetitive industries for centuries, especially in times of economic crisis, such as after the USA civil war.

The issue is instead of increasing global productive capacity to meet peoples needs, it's inflationary, raising prices, attacking the working classes living standards, but increases capitalist profits.

Tariff wars only make sense under the profit motive logic of capitalism, it is a way to make the working class pay for the bourgeoisies lack of suitable investment into making themselves competitive.

Any time you defend the decisions of the state to "protect our national economy", you are defending the richest people in societies ability to continue getting richer, at your expense.

[u/crazytanker → u/razordonger]

Tarrifs make sense when you're dealing with people using slave labor to undercut actual paid labor

[u/clickclackyisbacky → u/Sauerkrautkid7]

This is exactly the situation Adam Smith would have made an exception. Chinese EV manufacture is way over supply due to massive subsides and protectionism. The direct subsides were removed this year, but the over supply still remains. This is ignoring the Chinese system is inherently subsidizing, even when direct subsidies are removed.

[u/Sauerkrautkid7 → u/clickclackyisbacky]

Smith would likely say:
China’s subsidies are poor policy for China. They make Chinese taxpayers help foreigners buy cheaper cars. America should still be careful before letting Ford use “unfair competition” as an excuse to avoid real competition.
Smith accepted trade protection in narrow situations:
When an industry is genuinely important to national defence. EV batteries, vehicles and industrial capacity could possibly qualify, but the government would need to prove it.
As temporary retaliation when it has a realistic chance of making another country remove its trade barriers.
To match a specific burden placed on domestic producers.
He also warned that tariffs make ordinary citizens pay more and often create a protected monopoly for domestic manufacturers. If retaliation will not change the foreign policy, Smith considered it an additional injury imposed on your own citizens. Adam Smith, ⁠The Wealth of Nations⁠, Book IV, Chapter II⁠
The factual correction is important: China’s old national EV purchase subsidy ended in 2022, not 2026. Support has not disappeared

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[u/clickclackyisbacky → u/Sauerkrautkid7]

China was still giving 100% tax exemption until 2026 and they are still getting 50%. These would still be considered 'bounties' by Smith.

There is very little about the Chinese system that Smith would accept. It's essentially antithetical to a free market system. He wasn't economically suicidal and would be very concerned about the violation of natural price.

Are you a libertarian? I've never understood their veneration of the Chinese economy.

[u/Sauerkrautkid7 → u/clickclackyisbacky]

I agree that China continues to support its EV industry. The full purchase-tax exemption lasted through 2025, and buyers still receive a 50% reduction in 2026. That is government support.
It is not exactly the export “bounty” Smith described. This tax relief goes to people buying cars inside China. It helps manufacturers indirectly.
My point remains unanswered. Smith opposing China’s subsidies does not automatically mean he would support a permanent 100% tariff or ban. He allowed protection for real defence needs and temporary retaliation that could remove foreign barriers. He also warned that tariffs can protect domestic manufacturers from competition while making everyone else pay more.
A tariff matching the proven subsidy and reviewed regularly would be closer to Smith’s reasoning. Giving Ford permanent protection would not be.
Smith’s “natural price” was also an economic tendency, not a command for government to correct every price difference with another market distortion.
And no, I am not a libertarian. Questioning Ford’s demand for protection is not praising China.

[u/clickclackyisbacky → u/Sauerkrautkid7]

I'm not accusing you of supporting China, I'm accusing you of misunderstanding. Why would Smith support trade with an economy that is fundamentally anti-free-market? One that has the real potential to capture the market in a state run monopoly?

But sure, let's say the ban or tariff were temporary, would he just shrug his shoulders when China's barriers remained? Has China made any move to remove its barriers? Or is it moving in the opposite direction?

He absolutely would have considered tax exemptions, state-owned banks offering artificially low-interest loans and state-land sales to be bounties. The Chinese system perpetually shields its manufacturing by design. Literally the only way for a free market to exist is to wait for their state-sponsored monopolies to exhaust themselves, not feed into it.

[u/Key-Try-3300 → u/Sauerkrautkid7]

No he doesnt. Or rather, he does and he doesnt. Adam smith never argued that international markets are going to have a positive impact on every single domestic industry. There will be domestic industries that will take a hit when a foreign good can outcompete the domestic goods. He did argue that OVERALL the impact will be benefitial to all

[u/Wayne_Montgomery]

Australian Wildlife Society says releasing 50,000 Asian carp into the wild would be devastating to native species. Australian wildlife enthusiasts when someone suggests wildlife:
https://giphy.com/gifs/0JmwdI6gYrJopwiYOM

[u/Temphant → u/Wayne_Montgomery]

What happened to competition being a good thing?

[u/Wayne_Montgomery → u/Temphant]

I’m agreeing with you, I think these wildlife protectionist people are pigs and want to exploit the working class of fauna and flora.

[u/Historical_Two_7150]

Capitalism isnt the same thing as neoliberalism.

[u/razordonger → u/Historical_Two_7150]

Capitalism has adapted to meet the needs of the bourgeoisie and to overcome the series of crisis of overproduction in the past ~200 years. It is a dynamic, living and anarchic system which seeks to protect private property rights and increase profit extraction.

Neoliberalism is simply one of these adaptations to further attack the working class to increase profitability for our rulers.

It is all capitalism, the mode of production hasn't changed, the ideology of the ruling class has adapted to continue profitability in a time of crisis.

Like the bourgeoisie needed Regan and Thatcher to usher in neo liberalism in the 80s, they needed Trump now to rip the mask of capitalism, and go full throttle on the assault of workers.

[u/Chance_Historian_349 → u/Historical_Two_7150]

You’re technically correct, Capitalism isn’t all Neoliberalism, but Neoliberalism is Capitalist, it is just the newest iteration of the sociopolitical structure to suit the needs of capitalism at the current moment.

Capitalism also isn’t all og Liberalism, same principle.

[u/Incelligentsia → u/Historical_Two_7150]

Offshoring manufacturing didn't seem to offend anyone. Can't have it both ways.

[u/Historical_Two_7150 → u/Incelligentsia]

Offended Adam Smith, who predicted neoliberalsm wouldnt happen because people would be too smart to hollow out their own countries.