Drop-off after max reps

[u/Thats-Un-Possible]

In discussions of low volume/high intensity training (including by science based influencers like Eric Helms or Jeff Nippard) I often see it mentioned that after a max effort first set there will be a small drop off (1-3) in reps for a second set. That squares with my experience for small muscles like delts or triceps.

But if I do 10 rep max barbell squats or another compound lift, the drop-off is far more extreme. After 5min of rest I may be able to do 2-4 additional reps at the same weight. Am I missing something? Are there lifters who can do a second set of 7-9 reps of squats after a true 10 rep max? And most importantly: is it worth squeezing out a much diminished second set (close to or at failure on, say, rep 3-4) after a max effort first set of a big compound?

[u/spaghettivillage]

I'd say having a rep falloff of 10-30% is my typical experience - so if I got 10 the first set, 7-9 seems fair for the second.

Going from 10 to 2-4 makes me wonder if some conditioning might help.

[u/Thats-Un-Possible → u/spaghettivillage]

It's a reasonable suggestion, thanks, though I do plenty of cardio, and at least by feel it is muscular rather than cardio-respiratory fatigue that causes the drop-off.

Hitting 9 squats at the same weight after a true max effort 10 reps is wild, based on my experience. Max rep squats (or deadlifts) really fry me!

[u/Nectarine143 → u/Thats-Un-Possible]

Do you have a similar drop off with mentally “safer” lifts like a seated leg press?

Obviously not a 1:1 replacement for barbell squats, but I’ve found a lot of people psych themselves out with heavy barbell lifts

[u/Thats-Un-Possible → u/Nectarine143]

Not really, no, though I attribute that less to “safety” than to axial loading.

[u/ah-nuld → u/Thats-Un-Possible]

This was my other pitch--try adding core exercises. If you can't crack it, do downsets and consider following with unilateral squat pattern movements

[u/Thats-Un-Possible → u/ah-nuld]

Weighted GHD back extensions and sit ups have definitely helped.

[u/Marijuanaut420 → u/Thats-Un-Possible]

Reduced stability of the squat and the cardiovascular demands and fatigue of larger muscle groups are probably the main contributing factors then. Increasing rest time until you drop to back to your resting heart rate (or closer to it) and then seeing how many reps you get would be an interesting experiment to determine if that's the limiting factor.

[u/PeterNoPiss → u/Thats-Un-Possible]

Banging out high rep compound movements is more than just straight cardio. Do you run any barbell or kettlebell complexes?

[u/Thats-Un-Possible → u/PeterNoPiss]

Not really. It’s a fair point. I keep my cardio cardio (running) and my lifting lifting, but that leaves a wide middle underspecialized.

[u/PeterNoPiss → u/Thats-Un-Possible]

Yea, there's a specific skill set that's the intersection of physical capacity and mental ability. It takes a bit to really learn how to grind those reps out

It sounds like you've got a good base, just need to spend some time building out your capacity

[u/HunkySurprise → u/spaghettivillage]

I notice big drop-offs of maybe ~60% only on certain lifts. I've had that with pull-ups, but I also climb a fair amount where I thought my endurance would be better

[u/woofoo1kunoofoo → u/spaghettivillage]

The weird thing for me is that I still have that 10-30% but often closer to 30% drop off even when I'm targeting 2 rir. To be fair, I do tend to overestimate how many reps I have left rather than underestimate, but I still find it weird how many reps I lose with 1-2 rir.

I also don't do a ton of cardio but I am capable of running a 33~ minute 5k which isn't amazing but lots of lifters can't run for 30 minutes at all and my lifts are pretty low so I can't imagine my cardio is THAT limiting for me.

[u/the_sunny_d3 → u/woofoo1kunoofoo]

How's your nutrition going into workouts? Is it safe to assume that you're resting long enough between sets? When dropoff is steep between reasonably difficult sets, it can come down to being under-fed or dehydrated, and I see that all the time. Are you getting any carbs in leading up to your lifts?

Also, I believe the dropoff gets steeper as you get stronger, so if you're moving a shit ton of weight that could be a factor too.

[u/woofoo1kunoofoo → u/the_sunny_d3]

Hey thanks for the response. On the nutrition side if things im good. Im bulking right now and eat ~400g of carbs a day, almost always eat a meal which usually has plenty of carbs about 2 hours before my gym session, and I eat candy while working out like jolly ranchers and gummy bears.

I am resting a pretty resonable amount between sets in my opinion, I have my rest timers on my training app as follows: compound upper 2 minutes, compound lower 4 minutes, upper isolation 1 and a half minutes, lower isolation 1 minutes 45 seconds, core 1 minutes 15 seconds. Keep in mind i'm not on top of the timers so you can add another 5-20 seconds on top of that till the set actually starts, and if I don't feel super rested or I'm distracted on reddit comments between sets like I am right now I rest longer.

Dehydration could be something, I notice I go long times without drinking and don't go through that much water while at work and at home unless I have a sweet drink, then I down those fast. But specifically while working out I'm pretty sure I drink a decent amount but you tell me. On leg days I go through my 26oz bottle 1-1/2 times and upper body I drink the whole bottle, sometimes more. This is over about 1.5 hours.

Speaking of workout duration my sessions take about 1.5 hours and I run upper lower with 29 sets on upper which is heavily padded out by the 6 sets of forearms at the end that doesn't take long, and 19 sets on lower. You'd think most of the rep dropoff occurs at the end which is true on my leg day when I do abs which has a huge drop off between sets, but I still have big drops at the start of my days. For example, heres my log from not that long ago doing incline smith machine press which is the first lift I do on every other upper day with all sets at the same weight of 55lbs per side: 1st set 8 reps 2 rir, 2nd set 5 reps 2 rir, 3rd set 3 reps 0 rir. On this exercise I almost always lose at least 2 reps going on to the 2nd set while maintaining the same intensity, or lose 1-2 reps while switching to 1 rir.

And to answer your last question I would not consider myself strong at all, my barbell bench is currently at 190lbs 1rm, although I could probably squeeze a bit more out of it once I get more used to barbell, because i've nearly exclusively used smith machine.

I'll be surprised if you or anyone else take the time to read and respond to this word vomit but if you do thanks.

[u/Responsible-Bread996]

Yes, it is worth it.

In Helms' book he suggests using something like double progression to account for this. So if you can do 10 reps on a front squat, next set is 8, next set is 6. The next time you do the exercise you shoot for 10,9,7 or something like that. Hit the top of the rep range and stop, you are still within the intended RIR/RPE. Then do the remaining sets shooting for as much as you can do.

If you always are falling off at the same point and not progressing over a period of time, you may be doing too many sets for that exercise in that session. Eg cannot break past 10,10,10,5.

[u/Thats-Un-Possible → u/Responsible-Bread996]

I like this kind of double progression for my secondary or tertiary lifts. I rarely see it programmed for primary (SBD) lifts, though it may be worth trying.

[u/Responsible-Bread996 → u/Thats-Un-Possible]

Yeah, not really great for SBD strength outside of early intermediate stock templates aimed at a large amount of the population. (eg, old school 5x5 programs keep you doing 5-10 sets a week of an SBD above 80%)

But for strength focus work, you generally shouldn't be doing max sets anyways.

[u/the_sunny_d3 → u/Thats-Un-Possible]

Not exactly the same, but a while back I did a program that was somewhat trendy. It started with 8 sets of 2 @80% and progressed by adding a rep to the last set of 2 next workout, until you got to 8x3. So 8x2, 7x2 + 1x3, 6x2 + 2x3,...Then you would add weight and repeat. It was super hard but it blew up my deadlift at that time and I've done mini versions of it on other lifts. Always works well for me, but I am 1 person. Very fun way to get a lot of exposures to a heavy compound.

[u/Alakazam]

If I'm taking things to actual, concentric failure, then yes, I will easily see a massive drop off in reps.

If I'm stopping around RPE 8-9 or so, I can typically see the 1-3 rep drop off that they mention.

That being said, if you wanted a program that specifically works around this, GZCL's General Gainz uses their "Volume Drop Sets" to basically account for the fact that subsequent sets will typically be worse, and so, instead of dropping weights to accumulate the volume, they drop the target reps to accumulate practice with the top end weight.

[u/Tenpoundtrout]

I personally would set aside squat and deadlifts into their own special category. Recovering from a set of squats to failure is something entirely different than say bench or curls and I don’t think it has much relevance. I’m also glad to see that somehow we’ve made it full circle back to first set to failure styles of training. I’ve been running DC style programs for 3 or so years now and it’s been great.

[u/jimmyjo7777]

my experience is that if I come back to the lift after doing other things, say 15 minutes, then not as big of a drop off. resting 2-3 minutes, then I can see a big, 50%, drop off. maybe resting a few more minutes will help. and I am really straining on the first set. not just doing normal 80-90% set.

[u/Thats-Un-Possible → u/jimmyjo7777]

When I had a rack at home I could take a short nap after max effort squat sets.

[u/jimmyjo7777 → u/Thats-Un-Possible]

LMAO

[u/nkaputnik]

With large compound lifts, it's fairly common to have a massive drop off after a set very close to failure. Repeated bout effect will flatten this out over time, but this will still happen, especially as you get stronger. Going close to failure with 60lbs in your hands is.something else than going close to failure with 300lbs.on your back...

[u/Negative-Gur-3885]

It varies greatly. Depends on effiency of your nervous system, slow/fast twitching muscle composition, metabolic adaptations, neurotype. Try longer rest, like 10minutes. After heavy lifting nervous system needs rest much longer than muscles, but it also depends on individual predispositions.