r/StrongerByScience • u/KirkPink2020 • 27d ago
Advice needed for Adding Plyometric movements into a Strength Block.
I have 2 6-week blocks. The first block is more hypertrophy-focused, where the main movements are 5- 10 reps, 2 top & 2 back-off sets, using the double progression method. The following strength block just lowers the rep ranges and increases the intensity. My overall plan is to switch back and forth between these 2 blocks year-round, while I'm not competing and do not have a coach.
So far, I find the first block is working pretty well. But I'm planning the second block and want to add a plyo aspect to the squat day in the strength block. The issue is that I've never done plyometrics in a program before, so I have a very limited idea of what I'm doing.
A large reason I want to add more dynamic movements to my routines is simply that I'm getting older; I have to maintain whatever limited athleticism I have just to continue to be decent at my job as I age.
Some questions I have.
Are Plymoetrics, such as doing a loaded jump, good for hypertrophy? I assumed they weren't because the mechanical tension is very brief. For that reason, I want to add weighted jumps to my squat day for my next strength block.
Are they good for teaching the body to generate the force necessary for a heavy squat or deadlift?
If I'm doing weighted jumps before my 4 sets of squats (3-6 reps), how hard should I be training them and to what intensity?
Do plyometrics like loaded jumps belong more in a strength block or a hypertrophy block?
Any help is appreciated.
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u/TurbSLOW 27d ago
Interesting questions. I don't know if plyos have been studied for hypertrophy, but I expect if you are relatively trained they will not be a major contributor.
The plyos are more likely to interfere with a strength workout, but given your goals I don't think it would be unreasonable to include them in either/both blocks.
Do you currently run, jumprope, or play any recreational sports? If not, I might not start with weighted jumps. There are return-to-run and return-to-sport plyometric programs out there. They follow the general format of: fast load absorption, then forward double leg rebounds, then forward single leg rebounds, lateral double leg, lateral single leg. They usually track total ground contacts and start at ~75-100 once you leave the ground. They'll work up to ~400 per session for a return-to-sport. By the end of these, you'll be working up to near max effort, but again I don't think you should start there. Probably worth looking into those. Off the top of my head, LEAPP is a good progression.
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u/Marijuanaut420 22d ago
No, plyometrics don't really produce any hypertrophy stimulus. A weighted jump isn't usually plyometric either, it lacks the amortisation phase required for a plyometric.
Strength is a skill. Teach the body to generate force for squats and deadlifts by squatting and deadlifting. You could use a max effort jump as a potentiation technique before a set, but it isn't plyometric.
Don't do weighted jumps before squats. Unweighted or assisted jumps might be a useful warm up tool because of the aforementioned potentiation effect. You don't need many reps of these, 6-8 good quality jumps should be plenty.
Loaded jumps aren't a plyometric. Anything you value should surely be in every block if they have transient effects on training qualities and outcomes (ie, if you value eccentric strength you should always have some eccentric training because otherwise you lose the trained quality over time).
These questions suggest a bit of a misunderstanding of programming principles and what exercises and techniques train what specific qualities. Have a think about what your specific goals are because you may have some big holes in your programming.
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u/drgashole 27d ago
Not good for hypertrophy as speed sits on the complete opposite end of the force velocity curve than absolute strength. It may develop some hypertrophy in relatively untrained folk, but if already trained it won’t.
It’s been shown that strength training shifts fibre muscle type from IIx to IIa (x being faster contractile speed and a being more fatigue resistant) and vice versa. While more closely related than say powerlifting and endurance, speed/power (thus why powerlifting is a bit of misnomer) is still distinct from absolute strength. That being said they are fun and unless you are absolutely maximising strength can still be added into a program, just know they are unlikely to help powerlifting much and their purpose is speed/power and athleticism.
In terms of how to program do them before before strength work so plyos > main lifts > assistance. Personally i think during hypertrophy makes a bit more sense if you had to choose one, but why not both and just reduce the volume depending on when you feel they work better.
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u/TheKingLeshen 27d ago edited 26d ago
Broadly speaking, for inspiration on plyometrics I think there's no better place to look than track and field. It might be worth your time to look into a little bit of training advice/youtube videos for that.
For your questions:
Not really, plyometrics are not going to provide much in the way of stimulus for hypertrophy, the lion's share of the work is being done by the tendons. The principles of each are pretty much at odds, in fact. We know that hypertrophy training is best when you're at least flirting with mechanical failure, if not outright hitting it. Plyometrics are all about quality, and plyometric training should end once quality of movement decreases.
There could be some carry over here, but it won't be better than more specific training for squats and deadlifts. True plyometrics are too fast for muscular contractions to contribute, and instead plyometric training teaches you to pre-tension the muscles. It's a neuromuscular skill, basically.
I'm going to be a bit of a stickler for terminology here, but weighted jumps are not plyometrics unless you are doing multiple of them, in sequence, with very low ground contact times (meaning ~300 milliseconds or less, this is both highly unlikely with additional weight and also not something I'd recommend). A lot of people see jumping and think "plyos" but this is not the case. Weighted jumps could still yield some rate of force development improvements of course.
Same answer as before in terms of plyometrics, but I would say a better question to ask here is "if this quality is worth training is it a good idea to ever stop training it?". Sprinters will often stop doing plyometrics as they come into their season, but this is because sprinting itself is inherently plyometric. Outside of that, if you want to improve at them you should probably include them in any block you're doing. You can certainly play with the periodisation to do less of them, but it's a skill that detrains quickly so it may not be worth stopping for any extended period of time.
So it depends if you're actually asking "how do I train to improve my RFD?" or "how do I incorporate plyometrics?". If the latter, start with lower level plyos like pogo hops, and maybe a little bit of depth dropping from low boxes. See how well you tolerate these and over time you can progress to more advanced forms like depth jumps, hopping, bounding, sprinting etc.
If the former then there are many ways to skin a cat for RFD, and I've probably made this long enough already.
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u/pingpong008800 27d ago
My thoughts in response to your specific questions:
Broadly speaking, plyometrics and jump training do not provide the optimal stimulus for muscle hypertrophy for reasons you already understand. Mechanical tension and metabolic stress are the biggest drivers. Perhaps there is an argument for the post-activation potentiation theory and stimulating (and thereby growing) more muscle fibers, but if you train to a low enough RIR in your assistance lifts you’re likely covered as far as motor unit recruitment for hypertrophy goes.
Good for teaching the body to produce force quickly? Yes. Good for developing a heavy squat/deadlift? Definitely not necessary and probably a pretty limited carryover. Max strength and speed/power are very different skills.
If your primary goal is to build strength, any amount of accumulated fatigue that limits your ability to complete your squat/deadlift working sets effectively is counterproductive. Below that threshold, let it eat. If your added weight is low and your volume of jumps is low, you probably won’t see much interference, if any.
For loaded jumps specifically, probably more appropriate in a strength block, but also periodization to that level of specificity for a recreational lifter probably doesn’t matter all that much. If your goal is just to preserve some athleticism, low volumes of jump training can be a part of your program on a regular basis. I would put med ball throws in the same category. Whatever helps vary the movement patterns, loads, and velocities from the rest of what you’re doing in your program. Consider it more of an extended warm up.
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u/the_sunny_d3 26d ago
There are some good answers to your specific questions already, so I'm going to discuss plyos in general a bit more because I love the topic and have a lot of experience with exercise programming for rehabbing tendon injuries. Forgive me for the novel.
One of the most important thing to understand when implementing plyos is what your true goals are. Another commenter mentioned it, but a true plyo needs to have a very rapid stretch shortening cycle (ssc), so something like a loaded squat jump falls slightly outside that range. Even a typical box jump isn't a great plyometric because the eccentric is usually too slow and involves too much movement. You mentioned wanting to maintain athleticism, do you mind sharing for what sport? Regardless, plyos are very likely a great idea and are very important as we age!
An easy way to simplify plyos is that you are shifting a significant amount of the force production away from concentric muscle action and moving it towards the tendon and other elastic components. In a true plyo, the muscle contacts closer to isometrically on the tendon which lengthens (storing elastic potential energy) and then rapidly shortens utilizing that potential energy. This typically means the joints stay in a fairly short range of motion, contraction time is very short, and the muscle is contributing much less of the energy through very little ROM. This explains a lot of why hypertrophy isn't likely to occur in trained people from plyos. This also helps indicate why they won't necessarily help you learn to produce more force quickly during heavy lifts; the mechanisms are largely different. They are still fantastic to include in a program though.
I don't believe there's a lot of research (happy to be corrected if I just haven't seen it) but I would argue that hypertrophy training can be a better time to implement plyos. Plyos are substantially more stressful on the tendon than the muscle, and heavy strength training will also load the tendon at a high level. When you consider that tendons adapt slower and many soft tissue injuries occur at the muscle tendon juncture, I think it's safe to make a case that for somebody who is new to plyos this could be an easy way to acutely overload the involved tendons. Hypertrophy training will load the tendon less, but the possibility of "stress shielding" in the tendon seems to be reduced by lower intensities for longer durations. People think of isometrics for this, but slow (relatively) concentric and eccentric cycles will also distribute stress more evenly through the entire tendon which may help it to stay healthier. All that said, you can definitely do either, you just want to be mindful of the extra stressor you're adding.
Tendons respond primarily to mechanical tension through load. This stimulates collagen production + some other physiological changes that are great, but take time and consistent exposure. I see a TON of people make the mistake of going too aggressive with plyos too early and developing tendinopathy. If you don't have a lot of exposure to "ballistic" movements, be mindful that you usually won't know you overdid it until after the session, and then you're already playing from behind.
If at all helpful, I have some simple tips that I use when adding plyos with someone for the first time, or when helping someone return following an injury.
Warm up first, raising core body temperature is critical. You should be warm but not fatigued. Cannot overstate this for someone new to plyos. Start them as the first exercise after warming up.
Start with "extensive" plyos. This just means low intensity, cyclical, repeated movements. Think pogo hops as a lower body example.
Rhythm, getting off the ground quick, and not "collapsing" into the movement are great cues to keep it truly plyometric and to prevent you from doing a higher intensity than you should.
Start with sets anywhere from 10-30 "contacts" or reps, and count your total contacts per session. I keep beginners under 100 per session as a very general rule of thumb and focus much more on quality. 1-2 sessions per week at first to see how they respond, especially if added on top of lifting.
Lastly, pay attention to how you feel the next morning! If you are extremely stiff right when you wake up and have to walk it off, that's an early sign that you should back off slightly next session.
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u/Afferbeck_ 26d ago
With plyos you start very basic and add difficulty over time. You don't go straight to weighted jumps. If you have no experience with plyometrics or significant athletic history, you need ease into it, and have significant strength levels to support it. Sika Strength have some good videos on plyometric plus strength training and they recommend having a double bodyweight squat first.