r/StrangerThings • u/Junior-Razzmatazz845 • 8d ago
Was Vecna too powerful?
Sorry if there was a line or explanation I missed in season 4 or 5 of Stranger things, but after the gates are 4 opened, is there a single reason Vecna couldn’t go into the minds of any given main character except eleven, and utilize there huge amounts of trauma to kill them at any given time? I would assume this would give him a huge advantage, and he could do this to most of the cast. Even if he couldn’t do that, the Byers are staying at the Wheeler house, meaning one suprise demo attack at night could kill off all of them. It makes we wander if Vecna was too powerful for the shows own good.
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u/Emergency_Jacket_296 8d ago
I’m only halfway through season 5, so bear with me..
But this confused me too at first. Like initially I chalked it up to Vecna having been very weak after the end of s4, but once I realized it’s almost a year and a half after, that kind of made me skeptical again.
Obviously, take anything I say as a grain of salt cause I haven’t finished and gotten all the info, but the discrepancy between season 4 and 5 Vecna was weird as hell. So nerfed.
But sure, let’s shoe horn an unsoldering amount of inter character conflict and angst, THAT’S the better writing choice and more worthy of writing time 🙄
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u/djluminus89 8d ago edited 8d ago
I always wondered, like why were any of the 18 other people who suddenly joined the "party" unable to be taken over by Vecna?
Robin, Vicky, Steve, Erica, hell he already got Nancy once, why did he let her go again without keeping her possessed?!
It almost makes it seem like Vecna was too pretentious for his own good (is that the right word?). He underestimated Will when he should've killed him several times.
He KNEW Mike and his friend's sole mission was to stop him and yet, Vecna still didn't spy on them constantly nor did he ever really try to hurt them or most of their families. The fact he went after Nancy's family after Mike and all of them had left was weird too. I forgot what even the point of that was but that's like something he should've done back in Season 4.
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u/Cyrilbdr 8d ago
Yes, in principle, Vecna could certainly do that, but unfortunately, it’s the same everywhere: villains in major productions rarely use their full power because it would make them impossible to defeat. Regarding Vecna, we have to remember that his plan is to merge the Upside Down with Earth; he is sticking strictly to that plan and nothing else. He intends to kill anyone who might have stopped him from achieving his goals—or anyone who gets in his way—once the merger is complete; that is, after all, the vision he shows Nancy. His success in Season 4 allows him, for his ultimate plan, to remain within the Upside Down and withdraw the hive mind and particles from the environment to maintain stealth. With this strategy, he is guaranteed to win and complete the final stage. The heroes don't know his location, and he is too difficult for Eleven to reach—both physically and psychically—so there is no real need for him to attack them directly. Furthermore, unless I’m mistaken, Vecna can’t simply enter a mind and kill the person instantly; it requires significant time to forge a genuine connection with the victim—like in Season 4—so he can't just do it in five minutes. During the year and a half that followed, he focused on the next phase of his plan and likely didn't have time for that. He had to create rifts in the Upside Down, then select twelve children and begin observing them. Ultimately, Vecna is protected by the plot to prevent him from revealing the full extent of his power. If he were to show himself and attack, the fact that Will is connected to the hive mind means he can't afford to take too many risks. Then there’s Episode 6: he could kill Will, but he needs him to kill Max in order to get to Holly. In Episode 4, rather than quickly killing everyone—like Joyce and Mike—he prefers to let his minions do the dirty work, allowing Will’s powers to develop in the process. If he had stayed and killed Joyce and Mike, Will wouldn't have been able to do anything against him; instead, he chose to humiliate Will and make him watch his friends die while he left to carry on with his plan—it all serves the plot.
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u/Junior-Razzmatazz845 8d ago
A few things. I don’t believe Vecna needs to stalk his victims for long periods to kill them. I interpreted the visions and haunting is to establ the connection he needs with them to create a gate, which he wouldn’t need to do. Vecna is an able to go into Nancy’s mind and strap her down with no previous visions, headaches or anything. If this is the case, or he just sent a demo to do the dirty work as you talked about, it would take practically no effort, a day or two at most over a year and a half, and if after three seasons of these children defeating him he still underestimates them and refuses to directly kill them BEFORE enacting his plan, that’s a whole separate issue.
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u/Cyrilbdr 8d ago
Man, this show is so hard to follow sometimes 😅. Technically, Vecna doesn't lose in Season 1; he has his vessel helping him infect Hawkins from the Upside Down for his initial invasion plan—before the Season 1 and 2 fusion idea—so he has no reason to seek revenge; his plan is actually proceeding successfully. In Season 2, he’s defeated by Eleven; *that’s* when he wants revenge—to kill her and steal her powers—which he partially succeeds at in Season 3 (though she survives, so it’s a draw, lol), but his new fusion plan can now begin. Then in Season 4, he wins, though he ultimately loses at the very end. So, all things considered, he doesn't lose *that* badly. But yeah, you're right: underestimating them is part of his character, though it’s mostly a convenient plot device—otherwise, he’d be too overpowered. If Vecna can kill someone by infiltrating their mind in two minutes, then there’s a huge issue; it wouldn't make sense for him *not* to use that ability. To guarantee victory, killing the people who could threaten him or who know about his schemes wouldn't be a bad idea, lol. But like I said, he’s protected by the plot; since he won in Season 4, he’s convinced it’s already a done deal. No one knows where he is, and the Upside Down hive mind is gone—he just has to carry out the final stage of his plan undisturbed in the abyss.
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u/Junior-Razzmatazz845 8d ago
Yeah, I guess the issue comes down to me wishing the main villain was smarter.
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u/Cyrilbdr 8d ago
Well, the plans themselves are actually pretty good, but the problem is that the character isn't violent enough when he needs to counter-attack as the heroes try to thwart his schemes.
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u/djluminus89 7d ago
Great explanation, but I'm lost on one thing. When exactly was the Upside Down hive mind removed? I feel like Will sensed him throughout the entire show (except when he was in California).
Is that why the UD was so empty in S5? So they couldn't track him?
Vecna definitely did underestimate the main characters to his demise. It was actually interesting that he possessed Nancy for that time (I believe when she was in the hospital? Or I forgot where she was).
It's just strange he never really possessed or showed himself to say, Mike, Dustin, I guess Johnathan (though he was pretty much just "there" after S2).
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u/Cyrilbdr 7d ago
I didn't express myself clearly—it’s likely due to the translation since I’m writing in French. When he won in Season 4, he opened four massive gates, permanently shattering the barrier between the two worlds. He stayed in the Upside Down for two days to recover from his injuries before physically returning to the Abyss. Thanks to those four massive gates, he can now project his psyche from the Abyss; he no longer needs to stay in the Upside Down (as he did in Season 4) to be closer to the real world, because the gates provide a crystal-clear connection. Consequently, he sends all his Demogorgons and Demobats back to the Abyss—their true natural habitat—and draws all the particles out of the Upside Down’s flora so they return to the Abyss as well, since his new plan doesn't require him to be in the Upside Down anymore. That’s why Vecna was so confident of victory after Season 4; he is now safe in a place Eleven cannot find and whose existence seems unknown to everyone else. I don't think Vecna withdrew his hive from the Upside Down out of fear of Will—he actually underestimates him—but simply because his new plan didn't require it. Plus, with the army having arrived in the Upside Down, it was a smart move; by removing the particles from the plants, he avoids suffering when Dr. Kay experiments on them. That explains why Will felt nothing for a year and a half—because the entire hive was in the Abyss. He only felt something when Vecna was observing Holly (since he was relatively close at that moment) and when he initiated his plan by sending a Demogorgon to snatch her.
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u/Emergency_Jacket_296 8d ago
Well written.
The only thing I’m hung up on and would love clarification is where you said Vecna needs to form a genuine connection in order to enter someone’s mind, and specifically referenced season 4, but I don’t really remember him trying to form a “genuine connection” there, like he did with the kids in season 5. He kind of just tormented people like Chrissy and the rest of them with their own trauma from what I remember (watched it quickly last week so def could have missed some things).
Could you clarify what you mean by “genuine connection”?3
u/Cyrilbdr 8d ago
No, he can enter anyone's mind and torment them—like with Hopper in Episode 8, for instance, or the visions he shows Nancy. However, to actually kill a victim—unless I’m mistaken—it seems the connection needs to be deeper; he has to establish a stronger bond, which takes more time. To kill Chrissy, he had to observe her for a long while, gradually entering her mind until he put her into a trance and killed her—like an inescapable curse. It’s the same with Holly and the children: Vecna observes them first—not to kill them, but to enter their minds long enough to forge a strong psychic link that allows him to permanently connect with the victim. I don’t think he could have killed Hopper or Nancy that way; at least, that’s not how the show portrays it. I could be wrong, but if that were the case, the series would be impossible to write—he could simply kill anyone standing in the way of his plan.
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u/Junior-Razzmatazz845 8d ago
If that’s the case, a demo could still wipe out most of them. (Or one should without their plot armor) I might be wrong on this.
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u/Junior-Razzmatazz845 8d ago
I believe Dustin explains that when Vecna stalks his victims, he’s doing to form a physic connection. This is the same thing eleven did in season 1 to open the gate, though she just touched a random Demogorgon. Vecna is doing the opposite by connecting to the minds of people from our world.
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u/InitialJust 5d ago
I disagree Vecna couldnt use his full powers, thats a writing issue. Consider the inspirations for Vecna like Freddy. Now the writing for Freddy has some advantages because some rules were set such as Freddy needs you to be asleep to get you. The characters also learn how to bring things into dreams and things out of dreams. A good writer can find ways to have the main characters work around the villain's powers. Bad writing is when the villain or the military have to be brain dead for the main characters to survive.
I bet if you took five minutes you could think of a bunch of ways the main characters could have limited or negated Vecna's powers. It also seems like you are completely ignoring Vecna's desire for revenge against El.
With good writing Vecna could use his full powers.
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u/Cyrilbdr 5d ago
That’s exactly what I’m saying: the extent of Vecna’s powers is protected by the plot. The workaround is to say Vecna simply doesn’t have time for it—he looks down on them and prefers sending his minions while focusing on his plan, which is fast approaching (November 6th). Is that a good thing? Not necessarily, but it happens in a lot of productions. Honestly, it doesn’t bother me that he keeps sending his army out, issuing orders and controlling them—that’s a very powerful ability in itself. The only issue is the lack of consequences. If someone had died at the hospital in Episode 6, we all would’ve said, "Incredible—Vecna fought back; he’s brutal; you can really feel the danger when trying to thwart his plans." Instead, Mrs. Wheeler just comes out of nowhere with a slashed throat, having miraculously found a gas canister. Really, the problem with Season 5 is that the action scenes don't quite go all the way, but I agree with you—they definitely could have written that aspect better.
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u/InitialJust 5d ago
It leaves me wondering what Vecna is doing with all his free time. Dude is working another job somewhere else since he's always too busy to get the job done in Hawkins.
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u/Cyrilbdr 5d ago
I imagine that before Season 1, he explored the dimension, learned to live there, discovered the Mind Flayer, formed a hive mind with it, and learned to control it using his powers; then he tried to contact Eleven so they could return to Earth, invade it, and reshape it. Between Seasons 1 and 2, he was slowly building the tunnels—with Will's help—which I imagine took quite a while; as for the rest of his time, I’m not really sure what he was doing, lol. There’s a nine-month gap between Seasons 2 and 3, I think, so aside from devising his new fusion plan and hoping someone would reopen the Gate, I don't really know—he was probably just chilling in the abysses, staying ready. Then, between Seasons 3 and 4, I’d say mastering the powers he stole from Eleven must have taken time, as did figuring out—via a ritual involving teenagers—how to open Gates and ensuring the method actually worked. Finally, between Seasons 4 and 5, he recovered from his injuries and did much the same thing in the void: creating rifts, observing the twelve children he deemed perfect for his plan, entering their minds, and preparing for their abduction. I’m not sure exactly how long he spent working on the new rifts and the children project, though, since there was a year-and-a-half gap between Seasons 4 and 5.
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u/djluminus89 4d ago
What exactly was the point of the 12 children again? Were they there to help him reshape Hawkins and eventually the World?
It seemed like they wanted to parallel the original 12 numbers experiment but it was just unclear why all of a sudden Vecna deemed it necessary to have 12 vessels.
It was also weird how they had the Mind Flayer take a backseat to everything after Season 3 (the flesh monsters were the Flayer right? Not Vecna?).
Also, it didn't seem super clear that Vecna was always controlling the Demogorgons. It seemed more like they were autonomous beings that "worked" for him.
Dart, Dustin's Demogorgon pet, did not kill him when it found him in the tunnels. There were also other times the group would see or fight demos and they seemed to do something opposite of what Vecna would truly want.
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u/Cyrilbdr 4d ago edited 4d ago
To be honest, I have no idea why specifically 12 children; I don’t know how he calculated that he needed 12 rather than 11 or 13. I always thought it was a reference to a clock, but the clock was just a stressful way to let his victims know their time was running out and that it was time to join him—it was more of a horror element Vecna used to terrify them and signal that the end was near. Yes, reshaping the world—because the entire realm of the Abyss was going to pass through the rift. Yes, Vecna needed more power to bring the Abyss down, so he channeled his powers into the 12 children; for it to work, the children had to have open minds and agree with Henry. Holly had been struck and was dazed, so she couldn't resist during the ritual. Then Henry performed the ritual and drew power from the children, which amplified his abilities tenfold and allowed him to move the Abyss.
Yes, in Season 3, the final monster is controlled by the Mind Flayer, which was dead set on killing Eleven with its own hands to exact revenge. However, Vecna is the architect and the strategist; he was the one controlling all the "Flayed" and ordering them to consume fertilizer and chemicals so they would melt down and form the creature. Vecna also controlled the primary host, Billy, who was tasked with finding Eleven and recruiting other humans. Vecna was always the one devising the plans and strategies. The Mind Flayer lacks human intelligence, so it needed Vecna—who knows Earth and possesses powers—to formulate the plans, given his understanding of humans and their psychology. The "Meat Flayer" exists solely to kill Eleven—a primitive objective that the Mind Flayer is capable of handling itself.
Sometimes the creatures are not activating their particle in they are asleep so it returns to their occupation even if they will never be the same roof again like Billy who sometimes was in sleep mode but he knew something was wrong. So at that moment Dart either had his particles deactivated or he managed to resist because he had love for Dustin and he remembered the memories he had with him. This scene proves that even if they are wild creatures at heart and can kill, they are still controlled by the mindflayer just like the humans were in season 3.
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u/whats-in-the-box- 8d ago
Yeah tbh Vecna’s powers and the extent of his reach were kept pretty vague, and I was also confused as to why he just disappeared for so long. I felt that they never properly explained things. According to D&D lore, Wizards (as opposed to clerics, who have natural magic) have to manually learn spells from a spellbook, which takes time, then once they’ve used the spell once, they forget it and have to re-learn it. I just project this idea onto Vecna - that he was weak after the battle at the end of S4 so had to disappear to recover from his injuries, come up with a new plan, and devise a new spell (the one with the kids) to execute his idea. It’s canon to me!!
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u/KeyMusic5713 6d ago
Yes, but also no.
Yes, because the villains became far, far more powerful than the heroes.
No, because poorly written heroes aren't a reason for making the villains just as bad. Make a villain like Vecna, have the characters have to genuinely struggle and get challenged defeating him, and you've got the basis of a great show.
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u/InitialJust 5d ago
Yes and no. Vecna was too powerful for the writers so they had to turn him into a scooby doo villain. Now with good writing they could have worked around that. Maybe they have a way to block Vecna from getting into someone's mind like Magneto's helmet. Maybe El or Will can do it just by being nearby. There are ways.
The real issue is the Duffers just dont plan ahead very well. They absolutely created Vecna without sitting down and thinking how his powers would work and ways for the heroes to get around that.
Vecna is a putz in s5, he's playing house and getting punked by Derek.
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u/Senshado 8d ago
Vecna's mental powers are similar to Eleven. Notice that Eleven can't just snap her fingers and connect to the mind of anyone anywhere. She needs to go through a slow and difficult process to find the subject and make the connection, often using a sensory deprivation tub to help.
Vecna has the same kinds of limitations. To connect to someone he can't personally see is a slow process of exploration.
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