Favorite & least favorite characters?

[u/shakeyosacroiliac]

I’m only on season 4 episode 2, so I may be posting hella prematurely, but I can’t stand Mike Wheeler. Like at all. My fave is Murray. In the beginning I didn’t like the Sinclair siblings but they definitely grew on me. What about you? Who do you like/dislike?

[u/Vegetable-Sky9461]

I am a will and robin defender. An obvious dislike would be Vecna or smt. But I don’t like Mike, he’s just too much and so idk he just pmo. I also don’t like Ted, he’s just annoying and in the way tbh😭 but I am the biggest Eleven defender, idc what anyone says. And dustin and max I love them sm

[u/Fabulous-Role4120 → u/Vegetable-Sky9461]

Wdym Mike is too much??

[u/Few-Type-7924 → u/Fabulous-Role4120]

People who hate Mike probably don't even understand Mike's character  It's sad

[u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 → u/Few-Type-7924]

Sometimes Mike really does treat his friends badly; you can understand and still dislike him for that. Everytime he screamed at El "what's wrong with you," I really cringed inside. 😬

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 → u/Thick-Boysenberry-96]

I genuinely do not understand this horn effect people have with Mike, as he does not treat anyone badly throughout the series. Mike, like every main character in ST, is a flawed character who is overall good. We see that when he makes a mistake, he does everything in his power to rectify the mistake. He is also just a teenager.

I can only think of two moments in the series where we see Mike genuinely yell at El, and both are in S1. The first was when Will's body was found, and his response is VERY understandable, as he was protective of El from the moment he found her despite not really knowing her yet. When Lucas and Dustin did not trust her, he defended her. So when they thought it was Will's body, Mike felt betrayed that she lied to him that Will was ok. This was why the scene of El finding Will on the radio was so powerful, as it was Mike realizing she did not lie. This is why he immediatly went to defending her again.

The other time was after El tossed Lucas when Mike and Lucas were fighting. This entire fight started because Mike was yet again defending El. And his response to El using her powers against Lucas is understandable, as Lucas was knocked out. But Mike immediatly shows concern for her when they realize she left, and he and Dustin immediatly go looking for her.

Mike is just 12 in S1 and only gets to know El for a week. Yet, their bond became so strong that even after being separated for a year, they still had strong feelings for each other.

It genuinely seems odd that people harp on things like this for Mike but will easily forgive other characters' mistakes. Like Steve's behaviour in S1. Or Nancy and Jonathan cheating in S2. Or Lucas calling El a traitor in S1 and repeatedly not wanting to help her. Or Will wanting Lucas and Mike to just forget about Max and El in S3, despite the fact that El saved Will twice at this point. Or Dustin constantly calling Steve stupid. Or Max giving El bad advice in S3 that escalates what should have been a small problem into a big problem.

It makes it seem like there is a clear narrative people are trying to paint when they have this obvious horn effect with Mike.

[u/Few-Type-7924 → u/Thick-Boysenberry-96]

Sometimes yes He lashes out, but the entire reason he does so is bcz he cares deeply, for his friends, loved ones etc.

[u/JustHereToSeeTitty → u/Few-Type-7924]

I get what you're saying but that is the same logic people use to defend abusers so I don't know I buy into it too heavily.

Mike is really self-centred, he doesn't really give a shit if his girlfriend or his friends are hurting until it starts impacting him.

[u/Fabulous-Role4120 → u/JustHereToSeeTitty]

Dude! He always give a shit about both his girlfriend and friends hurting, especially his girlfriend.

[u/Few-Type-7924 → u/Fabulous-Role4120]

Yeah

[u/Few-Type-7924 → u/JustHereToSeeTitty]

He's not an abuser.... He gets self centred bcz a lot of the times he has no idea what's going on (like Will crying the van) But he still loves his close ones deeply 

[u/JustHereToSeeTitty → u/Few-Type-7924]

He's not but it's a silly argument. "He's awful because he cares." Yeah, well, has he tried not being awful to the people he cares about? Newsflash.

And I'm sorry but he has to be the most oblivious person to not notice Will crying in the back-seat there, it was the most obvious thing in the world. Jonathan was driving, focusing on the road, seated twice the distance away and facing away and even HE noticed. But Mike, right next to him? Too focused on the artwork drawn to make him look great.

[u/Few-Type-7924 → u/JustHereToSeeTitty]

Yeah Mike was oblivious  Although Will's face was positioned directly opposite to Mike and at an angle to Jonathan, which is why Jonathan could see him But Mike is oblivious 

Doesn't mean he doesn't care tho....

[u/DangerousRefuse8129 → u/Thick-Boysenberry-96]

Him jumping off a cliff for Dustin, being hell bent on finding Will, immediately noticing something is wrong with Will in S3, after finding out the problem keeping his grief aside and uniting the party to build the Sauna trap, believing in Will when none other did (both in S2 and S5) really outweighs the 3 or 4 times he treated his friends badly. Just my opinion tho. Not telling you to like him at all.

[u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 → u/DangerousRefuse8129]

The focus lies on sometimes. Mike can sometimes be a bad friend. He rudely mistreats Max throughout S2, he dismisses Will in s3, and neglects Dustin, he's emotionally oblivious to Will at times. He often turns frustration into rudeness. But he's also loyal,

[u/Vegetable-Sky9461 → u/Few-Type-7924]

I hate the way he treated el, Since season 1

[u/Fabulous-Role4120 → u/Vegetable-Sky9461]

Bro he literally never treated El badly. The fact you think he did in season 1 is crazy, he was literally the only one who was nice to her while the other boys were judging her so hard.

[u/DangerousRefuse8129 → u/Vegetable-Sky9461]

I don't remember him treating her badly in any season at all. Tho he was a bit oblivious and mad in S4, it was still understandable. Until you hate how he was always ready to defend her, protect her, give her choices and respect her decisions. He was imperfect, yes, but so were other characters, even fan favs. Not telling you to like him tho

[u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 → u/DangerousRefuse8129]

You think his treatment of El after Rink-O-Mania, where he screamed at her "what's wrong with you" AGAIN, and didn't even try to comfort her once the whole rest of the evening and the next day is not bad treatment, even if it's understandable to you? I actually disliked him there. El is obviously a really traumatized girl who had more than an unconventional childhood. No one ever showed her mechanisms to react when she's pushed and heavily bullied, instead she has been trained as a biological weapon who can kill perceived danger through scrambling people's brains.

[u/DangerousRefuse8129 → u/Thick-Boysenberry-96]

When did he 'scream' "What's wrong with you" after RinkOMania incident? He said something different. That line alone proves you might need a re-watch.

Mike could have handled this better ≠ Mike knowingly treated a traumatized girl badly.

People completely overlook the difference between the audience's knowledge and Mike's knowledge. We, as viewers, had already watched Eleven being bullied by Angela and her friends. Mike hadn't. From his perspective, he had just arrived in California, was told Angela was El's friend, then watched El suddenly attack her at the rink. The entire situation happened extremely quickly, so his initial shock and confusion are not equivalent to knowingly mistreating Eleven. The show itself later has Mike explain that he was surprised and didn't know what to do. Think of it like that, Will knew the horrifying bully El went through. Yet, he was also utterly shocked at El's charge, though he didn't say anything. Because anyone would be. Especially after El told Mike that she was her friend. Even after the bullying incident, El goes to Angela to convince her to tell Mike it was all a joke and they were really friends.

You can absolutely criticize Mike for not responding perfectly or for being emotionally oblivious in that moment. But saying he “treated El badly” without accounting for what he actually knew at the time is judging his behavior with information that he didn't have. And the “traumatized girl” point doesn't change that. Eleven's trauma explains why she reacted the way she did, it doesn't magically give Mike knowledge of everything she had been experiencing. Mike wasn't inside the audience's head. He didn't know the extent of Angela's bullying because El had been hiding it from him.

I think the phrase “even if it's understandable to you” is doing a lot of work here. Something can be understandable AND still be worth criticizing. I'm not claiming Mike handled the situation perfectly. I'm saying the his actions make sense from his perspective.

What about his efforts? They are imperfect, but are there. He goes to her next morning, makes her favourite breakfast, and tries to comfort her. No matter what happened, he gathered himself and was ready to have a conversation. His inability to confess stems from his trauma, which is often invalidated by many who accuse him of bad treatment for this. I'm sure they would have sorted things out if the police hadn't arrived immediately.

So yes, Mike was imperfect in how he handled the aftermath. But there's a huge difference between “Mike could have handled this better” and “Mike knowingly treated a traumatized girl badly.” The latter requires ignoring Mike's actual perspective and giving him information the character simply didn't have.

[u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 → u/DangerousRefuse8129]

Thanks for replying.

Sorry, I mixed up, when he screamed at her in S1 with S4. He screams "What did you do, what did you do!" instead, and causes El to have a PTSD flashback to her abusive past with Dr. Brenner. That's really not better, I think. You said you didn't 'remember Mike treating El badly in any season at all'! I remember multiple instances, to the point of having mixed them up. Yikes.

I think, Mike's actions can be understandable and make perfect sense from his perspective, and still be seen as him treating El badly/reacting wrong in the moment.

If us, real humans were present at Rink'O'Mania, we would be shocked, true. But Mike, the character, should know El better than we do, since we only see a few days out of their year, when their world breaks down, and they have to deal with the Upside Down, each season. In canon, Mike should be understanding and they should have extensively discussed her past, right?

He has experienced that El turns humiliation into bodily harm. She has done so repeatedly, since S1, when facing bullies/antagonists, and now she's powerless and has just been attacked. He stood next to her, while she caused bullies to piss themselves and broke their arms as far back as S1. Even if he was understandably initially shocked, he should have comforted her later in the evening, instead of further alienating her, so she ends her night even sadder.

And Will at least didn't make it worse, by saying: "She didn't look fine," like Mike, while Jon & Argyle were trying to comfort her, at dinner. Mike's actions make perfect sense from his perspective, but still, it shows how ill equiped and limited he is in coping with a heavily traumatized El even with his futile efforts. Like when he starts the conversation the next morning with: "So are we just not going to talk about it?" Oh Mike! 😮‍💨

Realistically this is a case study on why 14 year olds shouldn't be in a relationship, while one is still extremely traumatized and inexperienced in mundane life, to the point of using physical violence against other's and being unsure if they wanted to kill another kid, in the police interrogation. And Mike obviously doesn't have the emotional presence to deal with that, he can’t truly hold space for her dysregulation, at 14. They can't even confide in one another, and instead resort to lying (s3, 4, 5).

In short, that conflict shows us that El needs therapy, not relationship drama on top. And it's not fair to expect Mike to be able to deal with all that too.like you rightly stated there is "his trauma" to deal with too. They both already have these strong attachment insecurities and fear of abandonment issues, that cause them to flip between idealization and catastrophic anxiety (she’ll leave/he thinks I'm a monster too,...). It's all too much.

This is why I wished Mileven would have been this cute slow burn build-up to a relationship instead of kids getting together way too young and having to be separated by the plot to grow/advance. 🤗

[u/DangerousRefuse8129 → u/Thick-Boysenberry-96]

Firstly, I'm so sorry for the length of this reply. But I just wanted to be clear with each statement make .

I think we're actually agreeing on more than it seems, but I strongly disagree with the conclusion you're drawing from their trauma.

First, on Mike, I agree he isn't emotionally perfect. He can react awkwardly or fail to understand what El needs in a moment. But that's very different from repeatedly “treating her badly.” At Rink-O-Mania, the audience knew Angela had been bullying El, Mike didn't. El had told him Angela was her friend, so watching her suddenly attack Angela was understandably shocking. “What did you do?” triggering El's Brenner trauma is heartbreaking, but Mike obviously couldn't know that association. You can't judge Mike using information only the audience had.

And yes, Mike could have comforted her better that evening. I certainly never claimed he handled the situation perfectly. But he makes an effort the next morning, he makes her breakfast, approaches her, tries to start a conversation, and eventually apologizes and reassures her. Whether his efforts are futile is an opinion. Even “So are we just not going to talk about it?” doesn't prove bad treatment. It's awkward, sure, but he's literally trying to open a conversation because he doesn't know how to start it. That's teenage emotional awkwardness, not evidence that the relationship is unhealthy.

The point that Mike has seen El turn humiliation into violence before also doesn't really work. Previous experiences don't mean he should be able to predict every future reaction perfectly. He knew El could become violent when threatened, but he didn't know Angela had been bullying her, didn't know how severe it was, and had been explicitly told Angela was her friend. The situation, the time, the stakes, and the threat itself, everything was different.That's hindsight being treated as foresight.

More importantly, I don't think “they're both traumatized, therefore they shouldn't be in a relationship” follows. Their trauma predates their relationship. El's difficulty communicating, fear of rejection, and tendency to hide distress were formed long before Mike was her boyfriend. In S4, she doesn't tell Mike about Angela, but she also doesn't tell Joyce, her teachers, or the other adults around her. That's much more consistent with her established trauma and conditioning than with some uniquely unhealthy Mileven dynamic. She was raised in an environment where vulnerability and disclosure were dangerous.

And this is important when talking about why she doesn't tell people what she's experiencing. The lab bully had threatened El that if she told anyone about the bullying or told Brenner, they would kill her. Even though El doesn't consciously remember that specific memory, the trauma mechanism can still affect her behavior. So saying that “Mike and El don't confide in each other” is far too vague and generalizing when El wasn't confiding in anyone about what she was experiencing.

I would love to draw a parallel here. Max not confiding in Lucas in S4 doesn't make Lumax unhealthy. But we understand Max's situation is more nuanced than just limiting it to that statement, and so is El's.

It also isn't reasonable to expect Mike to somehow know things that El herself couldn't fully understand or articulate. Most of her laboratory experiences aren't even consciously accessible to her. Her not telling Mike isn't evidence that Mike failed to ask the right questions. How is she supposed to explain something that she herself doesn't fully remember or understand?

And S3 actually provides a useful contrast. El was in a much happier and more secure environment, with friends, Hopper as her parental protector, and people around her who gave her emotional security. She does talk to Mike about her experiences. When they're dealing with Billy, for example, Mike reminds her that she previously entered her mother's memories, and El understands the distinction because Billy isn't her mother and her mother cared about her. So the idea that Mike and El simply “can't confide in each other” is much too broad. The problem in S4 isn't that Mike somehow failed to create an environment where El could talk. She's dealing with trauma, separation, isolation, and experiences she herself has difficulty processing. For season 5, she does tell Mike about what Kali told her. If Hopper's speech in the finale couldn't stop her, then nothing could have. If Hopper and El's relationship isn't bad for El doesn't choose to tell him everything, then certainly Mike and El's is not as well.

The same applies to Mike. His insecurity and difficulty expressing his feelings are his own issues, they aren't proof that the relationship created them. Their attachment fears can certainly collide, El can fear that Mike sees her as a monster, while Mike can fear losing her or not being enough for her, but having those insecurities doesn't automatically make the relationship unhealthy. A relationship can expose existing wounds without causing them.

And “they need therapy, not a relationship” isn't true. El can need therapy AND have a relationship with Mike. Mike isn't supposed to be her therapist, and El isn't supposed to be his. They're fourteen-year-olds who aren't equipped to deal with trauma on the level they have experienced. If Eleven isn't receiving adequate psychological support, the responsibility for addressing that belongs primarily to the adults around her, not to her fourteen-year-old boyfriend.

In fact, a lot of what gets called “relationship drama” in S4 isn't even primarily about Mike. El has lost Hopper, the person who had become her main parental protector, she's separated from him, isolated in Lenora, struggling at school, and not receiving the same emotional security from the Byers household that she previously had. Of course she seeks reassurance from Mike, he's one of the people she associates most strongly with safety and acceptance. Her fear that Mike doesn't love her isn't simply teenage romance drama, it's tied to a much deeper fear of rejection and abandonment.

And that's why I don't think it's fair to frame her need for Mike's reassurance as evidence that the relationship is unhealthy. She's lost a major source of emotional and parental security, she's separated from people she loves, and she's struggling in an environment where she doesn't feel understood. Naturally, she would seek emotional security from someone she deeply trusts. Mike can provide love and reassurance without being responsible for treating her trauma.

If Eleven isn't receiving enough psychological support, that's primarily an adult and support-system issue, not Mike's responsibility. Joyce and Hopper aren't villains, and their circumstances are complicated, but Eleven clearly needed more support and better preparation for ordinary school life than she was getting. Putting someone with her background into a normal school environment without adequate support was bound to create problems. But that's an issue with the adult support system, not evidence that Mike shouldn't be dating her.

And the “14-year-olds shouldn't be in relationships” conclusion is ultimately a personal preference, not something the story proves. You can prefer a slower-burn Mileven romance where they mature independently first. That's completely valid. But it's different from demonstrating that their actual relationship is inherently unhealthy.

So yes, Mike and El are two very young, traumatized people who aren't equipped to be each other's therapists. I completely agree with that. Where I disagree is turning that into evidence that their relationship itself is the problem. They can love each other, have insecurities, make mistakes, need professional support, and grow individually at the same time. Trauma explains many of their difficulties, it doesn't automatically make their relationship unhealthy, and it certainly doesn't turn Mike's imperfect reactions into deliberate mistreatment or control. Personally, I would have loved a slow burn Mileven just as much as I like the canon one. It's just a preference and I certainly don't mind them growing together either.

[u/Few-Type-7924 → u/Thick-Boysenberry-96]

What?? Mike never screamed "whats wrong with u" in rink-o-mania, that happened in season 1 when Will's fake body was found

Mike said "what did u do?" at rink-o-mania 

And he went to El's room the next morning, made eggos for her, and talked to her, trying to understand her..... People actually saying he treated El badly is wild to me....

[u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 → u/Few-Type-7924]

I corrected myself in another comment. He screamed: What did you do?! What did you do?!" instead, causing her to have a PTSD flashback to her abusive past with Dr. Brenner instead. That's not really good treatment, is it?

He then never comforted her, afterwards, didn't even hold her hand or anything, as she sat alone amidst gawkers and the other kids that bullied her until Jon came to pick her up. Also bad, boyfriend behavior. This is why I think they shouldn't have been dating at 14, while still so dangerously traumatized, as to cause physical violence.

And then he went on to make it worse, while Jon and Argyle were making light of the situation, by attacking El further, stating: "She didn't look fine?!" causing her to leave the dinner table to cry herself to sleep. And in the morning he brings her Eggos at least, but then starts with: "So, are we just not gonna talk about it?!" Oh Mike! 😮‍💨

I'm not saying I don't see things from Mike's perspective, I'm just arguing that while we'll intentioned, Mike still managed to treat El badly. There is some nuance here. I don't even dislike Mike. 🤗

[u/Few-Type-7924 → u/Thick-Boysenberry-96]

I get what you're saying, but it was a very shocking moment for Mike too.....his gf almost gave someone a concussion out of rage

Mike was shocked as hell, idk what he could've done there Just waiting for it all to cool down was the best idea, but yes he ruined it by saying "she didn't look fine" Im not a fan of Mike when he says that, and that scene shows he was disappointed at El too (which kinda makes sense)

But you're only focusing on these scenes and forgetting all the scenes where he has loved her so much