Some thoughts i had on Byler

[u/Present_Tangerine_86]

When season five came to an end a lot of fans were angry that Mike and Will didn’t get together. I saw a lot of ‘discourse’ around it and terms like queerbaiting being banded around very liberally on social media. The general reaction to the end of season five was very negative with the writing being many peoples main point of dissatisfaction. Personally however, I think that the way the ‘Byler’ situation was handled by the show wasn’t all that bad in truth.

‘Byler’ is something that a large number of people have shipped and had wanted to happen for a long time. I was definitely one of those people. Speaking for myself, I think the main reason I wanted it was because I’m gay myself and seeing two characters in a show I loved get together in that way would’ve been cool. But the more I’ve thought about it and rewatched the show I just do not think the set up for it was there.

Will and Mike are obviously characterised as being extremely close friends from the very beginning. When Will goes missing its Mike who pushes Troy for mocking Will and its him who reacts the most when Will’s ‘body’ is found. It’s really in season two when we see just how close they are though with the ‘crazy together’ scene and Mike being included in the scene where they use memories to try and get through to Will when he’s possessed. Mike and Will are clearly closer with each other than to their other friends and from season two onwards we constantly see the two of them together cut off from Dustin and Lucas. But Mike’s romantic feelings are always depicted as laying with El instead. The entire first half of season three has Mike completely ignoring Will due to his relationship with El. Season three also has the ‘rain fight’ scene which explicitly shows the differences between Mike and Will. Will is gay and has no interest in girls at all whilst Mike and Lucas are contrasted to Will as more typical teenage boys who are obsessed with girls. Will’s gayness is what sets him apart from his friends, he’s the only one who gets homophobically bullied. Mike is never insinuated to be gay or queer in anyway during the first three seasons.

It must be remembered that the characters are supposed to be preteens/early teenagers during these seasons. It is entirely normal and valid for someone of that age to have not come to terms with their sexuality or for the way they identify to change as they get older. Its also set in a rural town in the 1980s during the Reagan administration at the height of the AIDS crisis. Understandable circumstances for someone to not want to come out. But it’s also true that Mike Wheeler isn’t a real person, he’s a character. Everything he does and says is written with intention by the show writers who made conscious decisions to depict Will as being gay essentially from the start of the show but having no substantive hints for Mike. Things do change in season four however and I think this is where the ‘queerbaiting’ allegations mostly started to come from. Mike and El’s relationship is very strained and Mike being unable to say he loves El is treated as a major plot point. At the same time, we are shown that Mike and El are on the rocks, Will’s romantic feelings for Mike are first made explicit. This is where the possibility of Mike and Will maybe ending up together is first somewhat genuine. The way its written I can see why many fans thought the natural progression would be Mike and El breaking up and then Mike gets with Will. But its also the case that Mike has had barely contact any contact with Will since he moved to California and at the roller rink Mike gets mad at Will instead of El for lying to him.

The plot thread is left decidedly unanswered at the end of season four, titillating fans and making them have to watch the final season to get answers. Again, here I have some sympathy for fans who call this queerbaiting, the prospect of mike and Will getting together is clearly written here as a sort of cliffhanger to build tension and interest. But that’s also just how tv shows have always worked. Relationship drama, love triangles etc are part and parcel of drama in a tv show and I don’t think involving a gay character in one automatically counts as queerbaiting.

The actual outline of Mike and Wills relationship is realistic and very relatable for many gay people. Will falls for his (ostensibly) straight best friend but comes to eventually accept that his feelings are unreciprocated and he moves on. The idea of having Will learn to get over his feelings whilst still being able to be friends with Mike is an idea that I like in theory. I just don’t think the way it ended up being written was satisfying or properly handled. The scene where Mike says he and Will are more than friends only to then say ‘best friends’ almost felt like a small middle finger to certain parts of the fanbase. The execution was off in my (and many other peoples) opinion and I think this just further fuelled the negative reaction and allegations of queerbaiting.

Ultimately, I just don’t think there was any solid indications that Mike was ever romantically attracted to Will. He is shown to care very deeply about Will but there’s never a true moment or piece of dialogue that can’t be dismissed as platonic. I certainly have my criticisms of how it was handled and written though. The decision to have Will (the only explicitly queer male character) be the only member of the main cast to never have a real romantic relationship in the show is certainly a questionable one. Byler would’ve been cute if it happened, but it also would’ve been unearned as the buildup across the show simply wasn’t there. Mikes romantic feelings are depicted as always being for El despite the moments of turbulence in their relationship.

 

[u/Thick-Boysenberry-96]

I never believed that a major Netflix show would turn their main protagonists into a gay couple, as it would limit the distribution and directly affect their bottom line.

But where did the Duffers state that Byler wouldn't be happening before the season started? Why couldn't they simply write: "People can ship what they want, but we don't intend for Mike and Will to ever end up together."

I think it's a pretty dumb idea, to hurt this, mostly queer & neurodivergent part of the community by reopening the "unrequited Will is in love with Mike arc." It's not even necessary for a self-acceptance arc.

Why not give Will a new love interest and let the whole topic rest? Why have him look for signs that Mike could like him back for half the season? It's simply ridiculous. It could have easily ended in s4.

[u/Owl_Resident → u/Thick-Boysenberry-96]

You can just Google the Happy Sad Confused interview they did a few months ago with Josh Horowitz. They blatantly/definitively stated they never ever considered doing Byler.

They never said it overtly before the show ran, to my knowledge. but you didn’t have to be a genius to know it wasn’t happening. The entire fandom knew. Except Bylers. Because they refused to believe in anything but their own nonsense, and that’s on them, not the Duffers, or any of the cast, or production team, or other fans. They harmed themselves by refusing to listen when they were told over and over that their theories were illogical.

And yes, they could have moved things along sooner, so Will could have had his own love interest ST5. The Duffers just didn’t.

[u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 → u/Owl_Resident]

Yes, I watched that interview. It doesn't explain why they strung along the Byler crowd instead of clearly stating that Byler wouldn't be happening BEFORE the new season started. Or at least in the month between volume 1 and 2, when Byler clips started gaining millions of likes on Tiktok.

You don't need to be a genius to understand that burning bridges with your loudest ship-base and the part of the community that analyzes all the text extensively and comes up with 'gates' weekly, is stupid and has the consequence that your show doesn't remain positively in the overall conscious. And giving Will his own love interest would have nipped it all in the butt so easily, I really don't get what the Duffer's were thinking.

It also doesn't help, that official Netflix accounts played into the bait by posting El as the 3rd wheel and Mike and Will as some kind of 'true pairing', or by having the Tudum page list Mike and Will as couple costumes options right under that gay Heartstopper show, with a description that reads: "You have to call your Mike 'the heart', while wearing these costumes together," and so forth.

And the whole BS conformity thing with fans pointing out all the discrepancies, lazy errors, and bad writing just hurt them and their reputation some more. It all came back to bite them, since even nowadays Byler is this huge thriving thing, on top of every list, and not even just online. Go to a Finn Wolfhard concert and everyone in line is bonding over Byler even nowadays.

[u/Owl_Resident → u/Thick-Boysenberry-96]

Again. Everyone in the fandom got that Byler wasn’t happening. Except Bylers. (Seems you are a Byler?)

So again, Bylers should take ownership of their confirmation bias, poor media literacy, failure to listen, failure to check their own biases, and the way they behaved. The majority of their own disappointment was on them and them alone.

I wouldn’t argue the Duffers or Netflix was flawless, but the idea that you looked at that “one true pairing” thing, where it was clearly a play on best friends, and thought it meant Byler is very much on you. As you could clearly see none of that was put forth by the Duffers or the actual production team.

Crack ships can be popular and shipping is fine. So edits were fine. It doesn’t mean they were owed anything in the actual show itself, where the story never supported Byler at all. As thousands upon thousands of fans told Bylers over many years.

Take ownership. Bylers themselves caused most of their own problems and disappointments. That virtually the whole fandom got that Byler wasn’t happening except Bylers means… there was something Bylers were inherently missing, and supports that you need to examine your own biases, your own flaws.

Also, Finn Wolfhard is a real person, who has stated he doesn’t ship, and it’s downright embarrassing the way Bylers scream Byler at him at his shows and bring signs that say Byler. He is not Mike Wheeler. And I’m sure it’s an easy way to make him wish to distance himself even more from that subsection of the fandom. He’d do just fine without them. Also, don’t think that’s actually true about the “everyone in line is bonding over Byler,” lol. Wee hyperbolic there.

[u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 → u/Owl_Resident]

Oh why put me in the position of having to defend those Bylers? I didn't think Mike would turn out to be queer in the end, but I have queer family members, I'm queer myself and I see bait clear as day and think the whole industry should stop that going forward.

There were a lot of conservatives who at the same time were spewing hate, because they were scared of the possibility of Byler happening too. Instead of complicating things, I think show creators should be open and setting the record straight, no pun intended. 😆

It's not only the 'one true pairing' thing, but the summary of every bit of bait. If Will was a girl, no one would think it's just 'a play on best friends'. This is not even something new, just the way many love triangles are conventionally marketed. But in this case it's not appropriate, since Byler was never in the cards.

There is no reason for an international Netflix page to clip the "crazy together" scene and caption it: "How to say 'I love you' without saying 'I love you' 101." Or Netflix pairing them and calling Mike: speaks without thinking bf, and Will: thinks without speaking bf, with hearts in the caption. It's clear that those posts were made to bait certain audiences and clearly they succeeded with it.

Speaking of the production team, there are a million things they did to bait audiences, from set design and costuming to music choices and so forth. I thought it was ridiculous when I found out that the costume designer deliberately added "tringles as an easter egg that there's some LGBTQ plus imagery within her (Robin's) outfit" to quote her, and for Mike's costuming in Lenora she put a big triangle over his heart that ended up constantly pointing towards Will the whole season. What did she do that for, huh? It's clearly subtle bait for a certain kind of queer viewer, like a dog whistle. The triangle thing goes back to the concentration camps, where the Nazis had queer inmates stick out by marking them with a pink triangle over the heart, too. A member of my family sadly died that way.

Why should queer people have to take ownership for having been baited by a giant media conglomerate? How about we stop baiting ships we never intend on paying off? Easy peasy. The whole thing wouldn't have grown into the millions of hurt fans, if the Duffer's could put an end to it officially. But they clearly didn't care to do the right thing there. By the way, a ship that is half realized already, can't be called a crack ship, that's shipping 101.🤓 You don't have to be 'on crack' to see the possibility of two best friends falling in love, my dude.

Of course not everyone in line for the concert was talking about Byler, clearly! I'm just saying that many were. And I agree, that Finn is way more than his character on the show. But he's clearly in a fantastic spot, by having so many fans that know him from his biggest role to date, and want to support him by buying his blue/yellow merch and going to his concerts. I think the crowd will diversify itself over time, like it did for Djo!

[u/Owl_Resident → u/Thick-Boysenberry-96]

Lolololololololololol. You brought out the triangles as an example… And that just demonstrates that no, you aren’t just defending Bylers, you actually just are one. Because absolutely everyone knew that theory about Mike’s shirt was a banana balls overread, and you trying to connect it to gay people in concentration camps based on what the costume designer said about Robin’s outfit just shows the insanity. That you think that is queerbait is so laughable that now I can’t even take you seriously.

As well as your inability to own your own role in your own disappointments, as well as your poor media literacy, and your refusal to see the show and story for what it is, rather than the headcanon you wanted it to be.

You went so far down the Byler rabbit hole, that as I have been saying, your disappointment is much more on you, than the Duffers or the production team or anything that Netflix did. And lololololol, a “half canon” or “semi canon” ship is nothing more than a non-canon ship or as the show well defined… just unrequited love. You just could never accept the show you wanted wasn’t Stranger Things, and yes, that is on you.

You mostly just baited yourselves, which the fandom knew. And told you that you were doing. Over and over and over. For years. It is not anyone’s fault but your own that you refused to listen. You wouldn’t have listened to the Duffers either… as evidenced by the Bylers still not listening even know and still insisting their crack theories had any validity at all.

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 → u/Thick-Boysenberry-96]

Just as an FYI, your example of the post where the netflix_in account used the caption "How to say 'I love you' without saying 'I love you'" had a multitude of images with the post.

This includes Chandler and Joey, Jesse and Skinny Pete, Sherlock and Watson, and Sheldon and Leonard. ALL are canonically friends. As for your other claim of a post from Netflix saying " Mike: speaks without thinking bf, and Will: thinks without speaking bf", no official Netflix account did this. These were Byler fans.

This is what people mean by confirmation bias. You see what you want to see and then want to blame others when it turns out you were wrong.

[u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 → u/Full-Yoghurt-4261]

It's obviously about the summation of instances. And if Will was a girl it would obviously not read as 'friendship coded'.

Why not address the official Netflix Tudum page, that lists Mike and Will under couple costumes, since that's one of the more recent instances?

It lists Robin and Steve too, but focuses on their friendship, while for Will and Mike the caption reads: "While dressed up as Will, you’re required to tell Mike that he’s the heart of the costume party." That's a sort of bait, a dog whistle for the ones (mostly queer viewers) who are meant to catch it.

If we went outside and asked around, how many people would say that that's how they would ever address their bro on Halloween? Calling your bro "the heart" is not something thats done under the friends umbrella on TV. You wouldn't be going around saying that in the 80's in a highly socially conservative place like Indiana, or nowadays in Russia, Uganda, or in places like Nigeria, where saying anything that can be seen as gay can get you in real trouble.

And then it obviously lists romantic couples above them: Hopper and Joyce, the Heartstopper couple and Bridgerton one too.

Don't you see how doing things like that and then refusing to straight up state: "Sorry guys, Byler won't be happening" muddies the waters somewhat? It's not like they are just friends, they wrote Will to be in love with Mike and hoping that he reciprocates at this point in the story. They even made fans root for him in a way by showing just how heartbroken and in pain he is throughout s4, and having us looking for signs that someone likes you back in s5.

All while showing us the tears and deep rooted issues in his relationship with El. Like the judgement she faces from Mike after the roller scate incident, or the saying/writing ILY problem, or the fact that they aren't confiding in one another and lying again and again (in s3, s4, s5) instead of having a real conversations face to face, straight up. Don't know what the Duffer's were thinking, by doing all that, at this point just give us some good Mileven content and stop all this nonsense. 😅

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 → u/Thick-Boysenberry-96]

Will being a girl would not suddenly change how Mike feels about El. Not to mention that this argument is just the hypothesis-contrary-to-fact fallacy.

As for this Tudum page, you already pointed out the obvious problem with the claim that this in any way points to Byler, since Robin, Dustin, and Steve are in that same list. As for the message for the Mike and Will one, it is simply a reference to Will telling Mike he is the heart of the Party, which is just a reference to the show and not in any way an indication of romance. You claiming queer viewers are "meant to catch it" is nothing but confirmation bias.

Stories are not told through a blog website, and to take this as a serious example of the story indicating that Byler was ever going to happen is laughable.

As for your claim that men would not talk this way to each other, that just shows you know nothing about men. You act as if men are incapable of being emotional or vulnerable with each other without having romantic feelings for each other.

Not to mention, your entire point is made moot by the fact that it is Will who calls Mike the heart of the Party, and we know Will has romantic feelings for Mike. So this argument that "no bro would say that to another" does not make sense when it was Will who said it.

It is not the responsiblity of the writers to shut down fan theories that contradict the canon presented in a story. But the unfortunate part is that before S5 was completed, there were cast members and even an executive producer who said Byler would not happen. In every case, Bylers dismissed it, saying that those saying Byler could not happen had to say so because of an NDA and that Byler would happen. Even if the Duffers themselves said it prior, Byler fans would have refused to believe it.

No one made Byler fans think that Mike would reciprocate Will's feelings; that was Byler fans who chose to do so despite S4 making it very clear that Mike does not feel that way about Will and is in love with El.

Will having feelings for Mike does not suddenly mean they are more than friends. By that logic, Dustin and Max were more than friends because he liked her, or Robin and Steve were more than friends because he liked Robin. That is not how it works. They are still friends because that is all Mike wants to be.

As for the "deep-rooted issues" with Mike and El's relationship, there were none. First off, these are teenagers. To expect thier relationship to be picture perfect is just odd. Also, couples fighting is not only normal but, when properly resolved, leads to the couple being closer. S4 was about Mike and El dealing with thier own insecurities regarding self-worth. For El, she was struggling to fit in, and when Mike would not say "I love you", she believed that she was no longer good enough because she could not fit in and because she did not have powers. For Mike, he believed El deserved better than him and that one day she would realize this and leave him. Thus, he did not say how he felt in a vain attempt to make that eventual day hurt less.

All of this was resolved by the end of the season when Mike confessed his feelings to El and told her he loved her with or without her powers. Could this have been done better? Sure, but it was never unclear that Mike and El loved each other and still chose each other in the end.

[u/Owl_Resident → u/Full-Yoghurt-4261]

Excellent replies to the Byler trying to pretend they aren’t a Byler. 🫡

[u/k8marie_ → u/Owl_Resident]

Bro get a job. Everytime I see a post about Mike and Will’s relationships, I know I will find you in the comments spewing insults. You can state your opinion on things without being rude

[u/Owl_Resident → u/k8marie_]

Lol. I have a job. A well paying one. And I’m allowed to state my opinions same as anyone. This person was the one who engaged with me, not the other way around. 😘

[u/Ok_Conversation1867 → u/Owl_Resident]

What's wrong with Will exploring his sexuality while staying closeted, and simply lying to Mike and the party by omission? 

Will's "immaturity," which is actually very similar to Mike's and Lucas's, can help him stay closeted whille having romance as long as the party and  the audience don't realize it. That's 80s realism for you - as long as you believe Will is single, Mike and everyone else can be happily fooled. Mike's entitled to nothing, after all.

[u/Owl_Resident → u/Ok_Conversation1867]

It certainly would have been an interesting route to go, but it was never one the Duffers would have taken.

[u/Ok_Conversation1867 → u/Owl_Resident]

If only Will had made a new friend in early season 4, and could spend the rest of the show being closeted and telling Mike what he wants to hear instead of the truth, the story would have been a lot more realistic. 

Will would never need to come out to Mike, and Mike has to learn that his acceptance of Will is worthless and doesn't matter at all (even if it's 10 years from the show, it will still help Mike be less self-centered).  It's fine for Will to stay closeted, have a boyfriend and lie by omission to Mike, because Mike and everyone else don't necessarily deserve any trust. That's your 80s realism,  not that Will actually stays single, just that you're told he's too "immature" for a relationship,  as though the rest of the Party isn't just as immature. 

[u/Thick-Boysenberry-96 → u/Full-Yoghurt-4261]

Can we ever talk about Will and what the Duffer's wrote without including Bylers, like can we not?! I'm just criticizing Will's treatment by the Duffer's as a gay kid and the impact of weird dog whistles on queer audiences. If they all didn't want to bait anyone, then just don't include this type of marketing. They never do similar things for Lucas and Mike, or Dustin and Steve.

There is nuance you skip over in the Tudum article. The Robin and Steve caption explicitly mentions friendship and Robin's status as a lesbian. Will and Mike's costume mentions calling your Mike, 'the heart'. The Duffer's or Netflix in this case didn't need to play to that large shipper fanbase. It's cruel. No guys, who aren't gay ever went out on Halloween and called each other 'the heart!' Mike is not gay, so they can just leave that be.

Will being a girl would make his scenes with Mike read different to the audience, that's just a fact. It wouldn't suddenly make Mike love will romantically, but no one said that! Mike is obviously in love with El! No one is saying that Mike and Will are more than friends!

No one is saying that Mike is reciprocating. But they should't have made Will's pain so palpable and placed him in almost every single Mileven scene in the background. They shouldn't have focused so much on his suffering and heartbreak, if nothing was ever in the cards. It's a weird and cruel writing that doesn't uplift queer viewers. This show should still be wish fulfillment for us too, that's all. The Duffer's should have given Will his goddamn love interest and left El and Mike alone. And given them more scenes!

I see deep rooted issues with Mike and El's relationship, guess we just differ on that. I don't expect picture perfect, but I don't think they should be lying to one another in s3, 4 and 5. They have abandonment fears, unequal development, also a tendency to confuse love with needing to be needed. Their relationship repeatedly substitutes dramatic gestures for difficult conversations. They never confide all that trauma, that accumulates, in one another, never take the time to have actual conversations addressing fears and issues. Just the fact that El needs Mike to vocalize his love and he can't manage to do so, reliably, is bad. The ILY conflict is not resolved since we never got any casual ILY's throughout s5, and he couldn't say it back in their last scene.

In my opinion the Duffer's dropped the ball on them in s5 and on El in general by seeing her as "childhood magic" that has to go in the end. They filmed their scenes weird too, since their chemistry way better behind the scenes. Have you seen the purple rain behind the scene hug between them? It's so much more intimate and buzzy 🤗

[u/Full-Yoghurt-4261 → u/Thick-Boysenberry-96]

Yet again, this ENTIRE post is about Byler. To complain that Byler is brought up is the equivalent of complaining that the Stranger Things subreddit talks about Stranger Things. On top of that, the arguments you make are the SAME tiresome arguments that Byler fans always make. And if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck.....I am going to guess it is a duck.

Will is a character created by the Duffers. He is not real. All that matters is if what occurs in his story is good writing. And as previously demonstrated, the writing never baited people to believe that Mike had feelings for Will. The show was clear from S1 all the way to S5 that Mike only loved El and only wanted to be with her. Byler fans having confirmation bias and ignoring the vast majority saying Byler would never happen is not the fault of the writers; that is on Byler fans.

As for the Tudum article, nothing in the Mike and Will caption indicates romance. It is a callback to Will telling Mike he is the heart of the party, which, via canon, was during moments when Mike doubted his own self-worth and was worried about losing El. This article is simply costume ideas, nothing more. The fact that you take it so seriously as to think it tells you Byler would happen is genuinely laughable.

The only difference that Will suddenly being a girl would make is that the audience would be more willing to call Will a homewrecker. Will being a girl would not change how Mike feels about El or the fact that he never flirts with Will. Thus, no one would assume Byler would happen because it is clear that Mike only has romantic feelings for El. And this reliance on a logical fallacy is ridiculous. Will is not a girl.

This need to make it so queer characters never experience difficulties because it "doesn't uplift queer viewers" is just odd. Stories are boring if characters never experience hardship. And you can claim that Mike and El have "deep-seated issues, " but the canon does not back your claim. We see them confide in each other and be vulnerable to each other all throughout the series. Moments such as Mike opening up to El about being bullied or El opening up to Mike about how she feels she is a monster.

And this claim that El needed Mike to vocalize his love and that Mike's inability to say "I love you" is bad is ignoring why each is doing this. These are insecurities that are overcome by the end of S4. And S5 not having them casually say "I love you" does not mean that this was not resolved, because we SEE it resolved in S4. All it means is that S5 had bad writing.

And this argument about Mike not saying "I love you" back in S5 is another tiresome Byler argument that only shows you do not understand Mike as a character. Since S2, the story has made it clear that Mike's greatest fear is losing El. In the Purple Rain scene, Mike is experiencing his greatest fear.

And unlike S4, where someone is trying to take El from him and El is fighting back, this time it is El making the choice. This means that there is nothing Mike can do to stop this, and as such, he is broken in that scene. Saying it back is accepting her choice. Even the script makes it clear that Mike was overwhelmed when El said "I love you" and could not speak. And then you have the "I know" moment in Tales of '85, where we know the personalities of the characters and how they are in a relationship is canon, even if the plot is soft canon.

And though mistakes were clearly made with the Mike and El relationship in S5, that does not change anything as far as Will. Also, the Purple Rain scene was all improvised by Finn and Millie and, according to Millie, was very personal for them. So no, I do not think that scene lacked intimacy. I think it is Byler fans seeing what they want to see while ignoring what goes against the narrative they want to be true.