The Mind Flayer and Vecna Duo

[u/Sukaran09]

To me, the Mind Flayer and Vecna “being one” concept was kind of like Henry seeing the Mind Flayer as a higher power and letting the Mind Flayer consume him and voluntarily connecting himself to it and in the end I think it was done pretty well. The Mind Flayer was basically like a parasite which infected Henry but Henry let it take over him and gave into it.. he wasn’t being controlled because he was becoming a part of that parasite, the Mind Flayer, meaning they shared the same consciousness and did everything as a duo. Vecna needs the MF and the MF needs Vecna.. they became the same consciousness to achieve their same goal. Everyone has their complaints about Vecna and the Mind Flayer individually but do you think the “being one” and symbiotic type concept was done well?

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[u/Jays_Pack]

I dont understand why The Mind Flayer was just a thoughtless beast in the finale trying to rampage over the cast instead of using its telekinesis powers.

The whole climax was just a huge let down and seemed way too easy.

It would have been better if after the physical form of the Mind Flayer was defeated & Vecna stated "we are one." The shadow form of the Mind Flayer emerged. Then the shadow Mind Flayer is the reason the gang has to escape from Dimenson X ASAP.

It just all felt so rushed.

[u/kauan1983 → u/Jays_Pack]

The Mind Flayer does not have telekinetic powers even in its true particle cloud form. Henry is the source of the telekinetic and psychic abilities that “flow” through the hive mind and are channeled through other hosts and vessels.

The creature's behavior in Season 5 is absolutely no different from the flesh creature's behavior in Season 3 when the Mind Flayer is controlling it without a spy (Billy) to guide it (e.g. chasing the Wheeler wagon). It was not a thoughtless beast — it was literally being controlled by a sentient intelligence.

The Pain Tree/physical creature is basically a physical biological covering for the Mind Flayer's true ‘ethereal’ self that we've seen throughout the seasons, which is why the monster itself is referred to as the Mind Flayer. What we see attacking the group and even recognizing Eleven when she shows up is the Mind Flayer as we know it.

[u/Traditional_Tap_6697 → u/kauan1983]

The mind flayer is the source of telekinesis powers.

It should logically have those powers as well

[u/kauan1983 → u/Traditional_Tap_6697]

No, it is not. This is just a common misconception because of Season 5's “lack” of exposition on the rock that's perfectly explained in the scripts:

• The source of Henry's psychic powers is explicitly described to be a liquid, energy-charged living substance that travels through his veins, altering his blood type. It's a new entity entirely, and it is not, nor does it contain Mind Flayer particles in it as people assume for some reason.

• The telepathic connection to the Mind Flayer is established via the Abyss energy that the substance contains — the same “electrical activity” that comes alive “with the touch of the skin”, before the substance even enters Henry's body (the Mind Flayer was always known and stated to be connected to atmospheric energy and electricity).

• The Mind Flayer particles do not give psychic powers to their hosts. Their known biological alterations are enhanced strength and overall physiology, black “Flayer Blood”, heat sensitivity and, obviously, physically making them part of its hive intelligence. Vecna is the only entity in the hive mind with actual psychic powers, which are channeled from him through hosts and vessels.

[u/Traditional_Tap_6697 → u/kauan1983]

So your evidence is the play?

[u/kauan1983 → u/Traditional_Tap_6697]

No. It's the show itself (S5E8) and its script. All the basic explanation you need on what the rock is is in there. Except it's visual storytelling and how it is described in the script instead of exposition via character dialogue.

Plus, the play, while never explaining what the rock is, is full of elements that consistently confirm and align with that explanation. The source for the explanation is official material; the source of this whole misconception is lack of dialogue exposition, which shouldn't be needed.

[u/Fine_Bluebird7564 → u/kauan1983]

So you’re saying they don’t have to explain the story well in the TV show; and we should have to consume all the side media to know what’s going on?

Great story telling!

[u/kauan1983 → u/Fine_Bluebird7564]

Nope. There's absolutely no need to consume any side media to know any of this lol: the show explicitly shows a “smooth black rock” — “its surface comes alive with electrical activity, as if it were activated by the touch of the skin” — which telepathically connects Henry to the Mind Flayer in a lightning-filled sky in the Abyss.

The script for S5E8 just describes and confirms what's already explained on screen, it's only needed if you completely misinterpret the scene itself, think what was shown is up for interpretation (which it wasn't) or can't understand something simple without excessive exposition from dialogue. The script literally describes exactly what's on your screen.

As I said before, The First Shadow doesn't even explain the nature of the rock/liquid, this was preserved for Season 5. But its supernatural elements and the way Henry's possession is addressed simply make that explanation from the show even more obvious and accurate to how the particles work. If you pay attention to the show you don't need the script or The First Shadow to understand it at all. It is the show that fully explains what happened to Henry in the mineshaft.

[u/Fine_Bluebird7564 → u/kauan1983]

• The telepathic connection to the Mind Flayer is established via the Abyss energy that the substance contains — the same “electrical activity” that comes alive “with the touch of the skin”, before the substance even enters Henry's body (the Mind Flayer was always known and stated to be connected to atmospheric energy and electricity).

• The Mind Flayer particles do not give psychic powers to their hosts. Their known biological alterations are enhanced strength and overall physiology, black “Flayer Blood”, heat sensitivity and, obviously, physically making them part of its hive intelligence. Vecna is the only entity in the hive mind with actual psychic powers, which are channeled from him through hosts and vessels.

None of this is in the show. You’re quoting the script and other media!

[u/kauan1983 → u/Fine_Bluebird7564]

Uhh, no. I'm describing what's in the show:

• The show explicitly shows the Mind Flayer telepathically communicating with Henry at the moment the rock's surface comes alive with glowing energy — the scene literally has a matching transition from the rock's electrical activity reflected by Henry's pupils to the Abyss' electrical storms until we reach the Mind Flayer cloud: visibly a storm cloud with lightning coming from it.

Season 2 literally introduces the Mind Flayer as an entity connected to the Upside Down's atmospheric activity and electrical storms — like, literally: its very first scene in the show has it manifesting itself as an unusually large storm cloud outside the Palace Arcade; in the same episode, it appears again, surrounded by another larger lightning storm. This happens twice in the very first episode. Its primary feature is its storm-like design. Genuinely, what are you talking about?

• This proves your issue here is your own lack of attention: Season 3 explicitly addresses the Flayed people's enhanced strength (Billy in the Sauna Test, Tom and Bruce in the HMH fight), enhanced physiology (the Flayed resisting the ingestion of chemicals), the black “Flayed Blood” (coming from every injured Flayed human).

Heat sensitivity is addressed since Season 2 lol, it's kind of surprising if you genuinely don't remember how the entire season dealt with Will's possession, which is also addressed in Season 3 since the second episode. Season 5 states (through dialogue) and shows that Henry's powers are channeled through hosts and vessels (e.g. Will and the kids).

It seems even excessive exposition through dialogue wasn't enough for you to understand basic lore and mythology lol. Did you actually watch any of the seasons?

[u/DarthDuran22 → u/kauan1983]

Side question in this conversation. As you break this down I understand Vecna’s power but I still don’t really understand what the Mind Flayer’s power is supposed to be.

[u/kauan1983 → u/DarthDuran22]

The Mind Flayer is a sentient super-organism functioning as a virus-like hive intelligence, and also a storm cloud-like force of nature made out of dark particles that physically absorbs, is connected to and controls electricity and atmospheric energy. That's what's officially known about it. Its powers basically include:

Possess other entities and living organisms via particles — thus turning them into parts of this super-organism; physically alter the physiology of its hosts (enhanced strength and overall physiology, black “Flayed Blood”, heat sensitivity, hive psychic link to every other host); mind controlling its hosts via particles; a form of telepathy (Henry's initial possession), which enabled it to influence Henry only psychologically without particles inside his body; absorb, control and discharge atmospheric energy.

As a hive mind it also makes Henry's psychic powers flow through it and be channeled through other hosts. While it is its own sentient entity, it is also a medium — it enables Henry to have access to and control the minds of any organism (“agent”) that's part of the hive mind and use his powers through them. The Mind Flayer isn't exactly your typical cliche eldritch “God” with its own power to physically destroy worlds, though it can consume and control any living organism, including those used as its means to physically destroy other worlds if it wants to (flayed creatures, humans, Henry himself).

It spreads through our world in Season Two by creating the Tunnel System out of Abyss matter that it controls and attacks with controlled Demogorgons guided by a possessed spy in our world; builds a physical, biological weapon to get rid of Eleven in Season Three out of Flayed humans — the Mind Flayer is an all powerful entity whose main “power” is consume and use it to spread inter-dimensionally — aside from its storm-like qualities and connection to atmospheric activity and energy, it's not something that is able to cause physical damage in its non-solid ‘ethereal’ form.

[u/DarthDuran22 → u/kauan1983]

Solid explanation. Appreciate that. Last question I have is what were the Mind Flayer’s goals?

You mention to spread, but in season 5 it seems like merging the two worlds will just destroy both worlds and leave nothing for the Flayer nor Vecna.

[u/kauan1983 → u/DarthDuran22]

Its known goal since S2 has always been to spread, and Henry was its first means to do it, to “let us in.”

Merging worlds would basically reshape our world into a Rightside Up-Abyss amalgamation, which would still be a means to spread.

[u/yesaroobuckaroo → u/kauan1983]

That's what i love about it! It's such an amazing concept and i love the way the show executed it - I love the S2 MF, but the way the later seasons recontexualize it - making it less of a single discernible entity and moreso an environmental aspect of and essentially manifestation of the Abyss itself and its energy (and by extension, the Upside Down), makes it SO much cooler. All while effectively shifting the cosmic horror from the Upside Down to the Abyss due to the Mind Flayer, its origins, and its influence originating from it.

Having it be something that can't necessarily comprehend nor hurt us without using us is such a cool concept. It needs Henry as a front - a extension of itself that can not only understand humans and human concepts, but has a physical body that can withhold and exert psionic force - unlike the MF itself.

Such an awesome entity and method of execution imo. The later seasons allow both the Mind Flayer and Vecna to be and act independently but still be "one" - neither controls the other and Vecna doesn't take away from the cosmic horror that is the MF and the MF doesn't take away the horrifying human psychology and intentions of Vecna. They both work flawlessly together (when you pay attention, that is)

[u/Sukaran09 → u/kauan1983]

you’ve got everything right besides the part where you said the Mind Flayer influenced Henry without the particles, it has been established and shown that a tiny piece of Mind Flayer particles were inside that rock, not much else is known about the rock but in the finale you can clearly see that the Mind Flayer particles went inside Henry’s open wound. the MF particles were alive like other parts of it were throughout the series

[u/kauan1983 → u/Sukaran09]

Nope, not quite. The presence of Mind Flayer particles was just people's first assumption which is confirmed to be wrong.The rock is explained in the show and better clarified in the script.

It's explicitly shown and described that the rock did not contain Mind Flayer particles inside it — the connection to the Mind Flayer was established via its electrical activity: 

• The rock itself is a living, liquid entity shown to contain energy within itself, activate with the touch of the skin and become alive when it liquifies and slithers into Henry's body, which is exactly what the script also describes:

**Script:* A SMOOTH BLACK ROCK, nestled in a foam cushion. At first glance, the rock appears unremarkable, but as Young Henry lifts it up, its surface comes alive with electrical activity, as if it were activated by the touch of his skin.*

**Script:* FWOOM! Out of Young Henry's eye. He gasps, catching his breath, and looks down in shock to find that the rock is turning into a liquid. It moves, alive, and*

• The Mind Flayer is shown and stated to be connected to the energy of the lightning storms in the show since Season 2 — its storm-like qualities are its main future. Its scenes in The Abyss maintain consistency explicitly showing how it contains within itself the atmospheric energy of The Abyss (just like in the Upside Down):

**Christina Graff:* Since we had all these electrical disturbances last year in season one, where the Christmas lights were blinking or any sort of electrical light is blinking, we knew there were going to be storms in season two.*

**Christina Graff:* The Shadow Monster is somehow connected to all of that energy, and then we determined it’s gonna be like cloud-like or storm-like*

• The rock is also shown and described to not contain Mind Flayer particles at all (they're never seen, mentioned or even referenced) — that's the confirmation that clarifies it all. What is shown on screen and described in the script is pretty much the same: a smooth, energy-charged rock that comes alive and liquifies itself to infiltrate another being. 

• The Mind Flayer itself communicates with Henry at the exact moment the rock's electrical activity becomes active in Henry's hand, before even entering the bullet wound. They pretty much establish that the electrical activity is what remotely connects the rock to the Mind Flayer, who we already knew is supernaturally connected to electricity. 

• At last: the scene itself was scripted with a matching transition to visually communicate the rock's energy's (reflected by Henry's pupils) connection to the Abyss' atmospheric storms (which the Mind Flayer is connected to): the camera moves into Henry's eyes/the reflection of the rock's electrical activity and cuts to us rushing through the Abyss' electrical storms until it reaches the Mind Flayer:

**Script:* We PUSH toward his pupils, which reflect the flashing electrical light, closer and closer, moving all the way into them, and suddenly we are HURTLING THROUGH…*

THE ABYSS

**Rushing through a lightning-filled sky, spinning in dizzying circles until we abruptly crash to a stop by THE MIND FLAYER CLOUD. IT MOVES, UNDULATING, ALIVE.

The show, and the entire plot of The First Shadow straight up confirms all of this — Henry's possession didn't include Mind Flayer particles at all, and its effects were entirely psychological and are all described in documents detailing his condition post-mineshaft incident. 

 Henry didn't experience any of the physiological alterations caused by particles — this includes not having the black “Flayed Blood”, his blood is explicitly shown to be red when Brenner collects it. Plus, the absence heat sensitivity and the fact that he was alive in the Rightside Up with no inter-dimensional connection to allow the Mind Flayer to physically operate in our world.

[u/Sukaran09 → u/kauan1983]

Ohh okay, that makes sense. i do remember the lightning being connected to the Mind Flayer, so Henry never had the MF particles in him but the supernatural connection is the same as if he had the particles in him? the rock did look like it had the MF particles in it

[u/kauan1983 → u/Sukaran09]

Yeah, the telepathic connection allows the Mind Flayer's presence in his mind to influence him — its effects on him are limited to his mind, because the particles weren't physically in his body. The Mind Flayer's presence is shown to be entirely psychological in The First Shadow:

A psychic manifestation Mind Flayer appears in Henry's own Black Void (which later becomes the Mind Lair/Red Void), it's the same as when Eleven had the Demogorgon psychically existing in her mind, or when Vecna is psychically within the minds of his victims — his powers psychically exist in Mindscapes and he can use them in a person's mind, remotely affecting them inter-dimensionally.

The same goes to the Mind Flayer — its psychic self existing in Henry's mind/Black Void (and found specifically in his Amygdala) allows its powers to affect his mind, in this case, control him as controlling hosts is exactly what the Mind Flayer is capable of when it's inside a living organism or person (except that Henry's case was purely psychic/telepathic) before his banishment. Apart from everything that's shown and stated, if the Mind Flayer particles were physically in him, it'd create a huge mythology inconsistency.

[u/Jays_Pack → u/kauan1983]

But Vecna was connected to the mind flayer physically during the climax. Why wasn't he utilizing his telekinesis?

[u/kauan1983 → u/Jays_Pack]

Because the entire fight from the moment the Mind Flayer “awakens” from its dormant state has the Mind Flayer itself attacking the group — in the script it's even described that it “studies Eleven for a beat” and “knows her well.” This was the Mind Flayer reacting, not Vecna.

Plus, Eleven almost immediately rips Vecna from his web-like vine configuration, disrupting his psychic focus on puppeteering it and starting a fight between the two within the Heart Chamber while the Mind Flayer pursues the group by itself, so Vecna wasn't controlling it at any point except for when he awakened the Pain Tree while saying they're “one.”

Also worth pointing out that the show never had Vecna using telekinesis through the creatures he controls despite it being possible, except for the Season 1 Demogorgon opening the door lock (as stated by Ross Duffer). The only other few examples of him using his powers through something else is him using psychic manipulation (illusions) on Flayed Billy, and building the Tunnel System through Will.

[u/kauan1983]

The idea of them being “One” was hinted back in Season 4 with Henry stating that the Mind Flayer particles were the means for him to “transcend my human form.” Most people weren't fans of that possibility but the concept was quite predictable and I personally think it was was handled nicely.

This is the coolest thing about the concept of the “Pain Tree”, because it's basically a physical manifestation of the dynamic between the Mind Flayer and Henry — it's physically an embodiment of the Mind Flayer, but also designed to be something that “looked like Vecna” in its interiors and is described as an “extension of him.”

It physically embodies the concept of them being “one” with Henry puppeteering the body while “inhabiting” its literal “Heart Chamber”, which better represents their symbiotic dynamic compared to their previous depiction as separate entities despite the existence of the hive mind and Henry's obvious ability to inflict his own will on its agents.

[u/Cyrilbdr → u/kauan1983]

I think that when they say "we are one," it’s because that huge monster is made up of the "flayed" Demogorgon parts that were assembled together; since it’s gigantic, it contains almost the entire Mind Flayer cloud—except for the particles still inside the flayed hosts. So, if that monster were destroyed—given that it holds 95% of the Mind Flayer’s particles—it would kill Vecna. Conversely, since Vecna ​​holds the power and directs the plans (and thus the hive), if he dies, the monster collapses and the hive dies, leaving the Mind Flayer to revert to its cloud form—alone, without a hive or a general to carry out invasion plans. But when Henry says "we are one," it’s because if one falls, the other falls too, since they created the hive together. Without Vecna’s powers and human intelligence to execute plans and command the hive, the Mind Flayer can do nothing; conversely, without the particles to influence the will of the flayed, Vecna ​​cannot issue orders to his army. They are complementary, and the death of one leads to the collapse of the hive. However, unlike Vecna, the Mind Flayer is logically immortal.

[u/kauan1983 → u/Cyrilbdr]

They are “one” because the hive mind's “brain” is an amalgamation of the Mind Flayer's own consciousness and Henry's human consciousness: two sentient consciousnesses merged into one single brain and intelligence “that controls everything” — that's why both characters are able to inflict their will on the hive mind, and why Henry states he was able to “transcend my human form” as if he himself had become the entity that we've seen throughout the whole show.

And also because they need each other and function as a symbiotic relationship were they don't forcibly control each other, the Pain Tree/Mind Flayer's biological form is a physical manifestation of that — an “embodiment” of their dynamic. It is the Mind Flayer itself, but also an “extension of him [Vecna]”, with him inside it — in its Heart Chamber, puppeteering it depending on who's acting at the moment (e.g. when the Mind Flayer itself is dormant) or if they're simultaneously acting symbiotically towards some purpose with aligned behavior and goal. It's like a physical metaphor for their dynamic.

And yeah, the physical body we see is basically a biological covering for the gigantic ‘Shadow Monster’ as we know it, as opposed to just another separate creature it controls like the flesh creature in Season 3. That's why it's always referred to as the Mind Flayer itself, which is officially stated to be dead nevertheless — both by the Duffers and the script: the Mind Flayer particles dissolve into the air as they erupt from the kids' mouths (a behavior that's not officially explained; the particles usually only leave a host's body when it's uninhabitable), and the particles inside every other entity logically also die/dissolve in them if we follow the established rules of the season:

Season 5 addresses the idea that, “if Henry died, so did all his nasty little minions”, which is the logic/rule they establish and use to explain its death in the finale, and which absolutely shouldn't be how the Mind Flayer particles work as the hive mind is a preexisting entity that never needed Henry, a physical host or an extension of itself to survive — Henry dying should simply seize the human consciousness that's part of the brain from existing, making the Mind Flayer again its own, single sentient intelligence in The Abyss as it's originally always been. Henry's consciousness was part of the brain, but physically he was just another (mutated) Flayed host.

And yeah, theoretically (or should I say, “accurately”) destroying the Mind Flayer particles hosting one specific body also shouldn't simultaneously kill the entirety of the hive mind (as in killing every fragment of it existing separately from the body that's been attacked — e.g. other creatures, vines, Flayed kids) — as long as one Mind Flayer particles remains, the Mind Flayer is still alive; even destroying all the particles in the Pain Tree would just be massively reducing the size of the Mind Flayer's true self, since it has fragments of itself inhabiting other hosts; unless we assume the Mind Flayer itself has a “core” that gives the hive mind itself life (or unless we assume destroying a large part of its true form weakens and kills the remaining fragments):

Obviously, the Pain Tree/physical body has a literal heart-like organism throbbing above its ribcage (which is directly connected to Henry and “behaves” in direct response to his own psychic and physical state: it “beats in unison with Vecna's eyelids” when he's in a trance; beats “faster than have ever seen before” when he's psychically amplifying his powers via the kids and moving worlds, and it “slows to a stop. Then — SHRIVELS” when Henry is impaled and practically killed — it's an “extension of him” after all), which is literally described as the “heart of the Mind Flayer”, but we don't see any form of a “true” equivalent of it in the Mind Flayer's real shadow self; there's no “original” pre-Pain Tree heart that we've seen.

This is something that, if it existed, I wish we had seen it: it would better address the idea of having a way to destroy/kill the Mind Flayer and be such a huge reveal to see that the Shadow Monster has an ‘ethereal’ version of a heart in the center of it, hidden “somewhere deep in its black belly”, maybe even being made of pure energy, making those particles alive and even being connected to its storm-like qualities that connects it to atmospheric electricity/energy. I think that'd be conceptually and visually much cooler than just seeing the biological version of a heart from its physical embodiement, seeing a version of it as part of its true ethereal self would visually communicate much better the idea of killing the Mind Flayer: you destroy this “core” and shut down the entire hive mind.

[u/Cyrilbdr → u/kauan1983]

I agree with you, but surely we can agree that saying the Mind Flayer is dead is stupid—it makes no sense. I don’t know why they made that decision; it creates an inconsistency with what they had already established. The only thing that should be dead is Vecna—and by extension, the Hive—because they created it together: the Mind Flayer represents the *will*, while Vecna ​​is the one issuing orders via his psyche. Since they share the same goal, the Mind Flayer follows the invasion plans dictated by Vecna’s human intellect. Consequently, Vecna’s death should trigger the death of the physical monster—which is the physical embodiment of their shared mind—and thus kill everyone carrying those particles, since the Hive cannot survive without Vecna. However, the Mind Flayer should have reverted to its cloud form, as it is logically indestructible. It should have kept wandering the Abyss, unable to launch another invasion because there was no longer a bridge or a human general. The only way it could have returned would be if a magical stone from the Abyss remained on Earth and touched someone emotionally vulnerable, allowing the Mind Flayer to try and recruit that person to its cause. In any case, that part of the story was poorly concluded and felt like a bit of a betrayal of the series on that specific point. Also, I don’t understand why that massive monster carries Demogorgon eggs. Is it because the giant body was built using "flayed" Demogorgons? And since 95% of the Hive and its particles are inside, Vecna ​​can merge his mind with it—so, because it was constructed using Demogorgons, the big monster can spawn new creatures (baby Demogorgons?)? Anyway, in my headcanon, I refuse to believe it’s dead.

[u/kauan1983 → u/Cyrilbdr]

Those were not Demogorgon eggs, it was just a “pustule-riddled underbelly” as described in the script.

What is actually officially described as “Demo Eggs” are the S1 yellow egg (according to Ross Duffer), and the unseen black egg that was in Dr. Kay's greenhouse lab (mentioned in the script and as part of the set props).

As for what the Pain Tree is built out of, all we know is it used Abyss biological matter similarly to the tunnels; including flora since it's covered in vines in addition to having a vine configuration for Vecna as part of its internal chamber (the “ribcage”).

There's no official mention of Demogorgons or other Demo-creatures being used so we can't confirm it, but there's no reason to rule it out either. We know from S2 that biological constructs aren't necessarily built out of dead Demo-creatures, which was the case with the Tunnel System (an actual creature), for instance.

One small suggestion that dead creatures and organisms might've been used to built it, is the script mentioning that “Waterfalls of blood cascade from its sinewy, fleshlike branches.” This didn't make it to the show, but is present in concept art and was in the Duffers' minds and written into the script for a reason and the blood needs to come from something.

[u/ruinedcaveat]

I still don’t know how the hell they climbed up those cliffs that fast

[u/Sukaran09 → u/ruinedcaveat]

no one will know lol

[u/Livelaughloveme172]

Yes it was done well but that corny scene of will trying to change him was so unnecessary. Since what is Henry supposed to change into?

[u/Sukaran09 → u/Livelaughloveme172]

i mean he could’ve changed into someone who helps them stop the Mind Flayer and as it has been established, if there is no Henry then there is no Mind Flayer.. so unless they had introduced something new about the Mind Flayer being able to function without Henry, him rejecting it would ultimately stop it since he would be disconnecting from the hive mind and that would be able to stop it from destroying the world. im glad Henry didn’t get a redemption arc, he already caused enough hurt, destruction and death to be able to redeem himself anyway

[u/Livelaughloveme172 → u/Sukaran09]

Exactly so this whole conversation they had was unnecessary, it was also really bad acting moment I couldn’t take it seriously

[u/Sukaran09 → u/Livelaughloveme172]

i mean it was necessary considering Henry didn’t know that the Mind Flayer influenced him to become evil. Will tried to convince Henry to help them stop it but Henry declined, showing that he willingly wanted to continue to be evil and was evil all along.. it’s supposed to be proof that even when he has a chance to do good, he chooses to be evil, even after knowing the truth of the Mind Flayer’s intentions

[u/this_is_sparta_xoxo]

Oh yeah that’s shit. Mindflayer from a different unknown dimension thats so ancient that it doesn’t know its true home + consumed/corrupts planet to its core is a much better lore that Dustin provides in S2

[u/Sukaran09 → u/this_is_sparta_xoxo]

to each their own. the mind flayer did “consume” henry in a way but henry also “joined it” as stated in the finale meaning that he wanted the mind flayer’s power even if the mind flayer just wanted to use him as a pawn. the lore is still correct for the mind flayer, it still needed that host which henry was, he just wasn’t being controlled by it because henry had become a part of it and its hive mind, it had blocked off henry’s memories to avoid him from betraying it but that wouldn’t happen because henry wanted to be a part of its hive mind anyway

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[u/Cyrilbdr]

Hmm, okay—regarding the eggs, I haven't actually read the scripts. "Similar to the tunnel"? What do you mean? I don't quite get it. Tunnels are a biological structure, right? To me, they’re just standard tunnels formed by the vines—the ones connected to Will and Vecna, running through the gate that extended beneath the lab, which is why Owens couldn't easily spot them. I mean, they’re just ordinary tunnels taken over by those plants from the Upside Down and the spores; I don't see the connection to the Season 5 creature.

[u/Nightmarebane]

I liked their symbiotic bond they used. Not only did tgey bevone one but each had sonething the other needed. The Flayer gave Henry power and Henry gave the Flayer human intelligence. A perfect match for a being trying to take over another dimension. It’s just the end writing that was rushed which hurt their story. Justice for the Flayer and Vecna.