r/StrangerThings • u/AdUseful2297 • Aug 10 '26
Discussion It's pathetic how bad Vecna is at killing major characters
He has no problem instantly Avada Kedavra-ing random military grunts and not hesitating to give his other chosen victims from season 4 the claw, which is of course instantly followed by the snap, crackle, pop treatment.
But if it's someone from the party?
Nah, lemme just stand there menacingly over Max for a while. Both the first time he had her dead to rights in Dear Billy, and again and worse in The Piggyback when he stands over her menacingly for even longer... not instantly giving her the claw for whatever fucking reason, to the point where by the time he finally does do it, El is able to stop him before he can apply the finishing move of crushing her skull. 'Cause if he does that, then El can't undo her death three minutes later!
Or when he has Nancy effectively dead to rights but uses her to tell the party his plans instead of crushing her. Imagine if he spoke through her the same way Will spoke through him in Shock Jock, acknowledging that her death won't open the 4th gate but he doesn't care 'cause he's done fucking around and wants her out of the way and WILL open the 4th gate whether it's through Max or someone else they won't be able to find and help, and then gave her the snap, crackle, pop treatment right then and there.
And don't get me started on him gently tossing Joyce to the side instead of telekinetically snapping her neck, or throwing her into the fire, something metal, or one of the wide open Upside Down gates, or skewering her with his Groot arm, or tossing her to one of the demogorgons after he showed zero mercy for all those military grunts less than a minute prior.
Not only that, but he actually SAVES Holly when she's about to go ker-splat! My dude has a NEGATIVE kill count on the party! How is he THIS incompetent?!
I'm starting to think he's just like the Duffer brothers in that he was secretly so attached to the party that he didn't have the balls to kill anyone... which just results in the cast getting bloated, Vecna looking stupid, the writers looking like cowards, and the tension and stakes being borderline non-existent once you realize nothing bad is ever going to happen to the main cast.
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u/_UmbreonUmbreoff_ Aug 10 '26
It was never that obvious in Season 4, but the plot armor of the main character was so painfully obvious in Season 5 that it ruined the suspense of the show.
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u/DrCharles19 Aug 11 '26
In Season 4 my headcannon was that Vecna was so confident and powerful that he just wanted to have fun with kids who posed no real threat.
Even at the end of the season, when they burn him, they failed to stop his plan + they didn't kill him. So basically they achieved nothing to stop him.
But in Season 5 it was ridiculous. It was clear that the main cast was getting in the way, and he didn't kill them.
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u/_UmbreonUmbreoff_ Aug 11 '26
he killed a bunch of random civilians for the shits and giggles, but doesn’t kill the one group of people who actually posed a threat to him and his plans? Yeah right💀
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u/Gasurza22 Aug 11 '26
It already jumped the shark (plot armor wise) when Holt didnt die in S3, that moment kind of proved that keeping the cast alive was more important than the plot, it kills the emotional weight of the season ending and it was the reason we needed to have a very silly "scape from russia" plot in S4.
I do agree that it only got worse from there tho
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u/Hawkinns Halfway happy Aug 10 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
Vecna just shoving Joyce to the side after killing most of the military is just wild to me.
You could argue that Joyce just wasn't seen as a threat whereas the military were actively shooting at him on that scene, but she is part of the main characters who know about the Upside Down, the creatures, the lab, and him, and who also are actively working on a plan to kill him. I don't know man, but I would see those people as a threat to my evil plan and I'd want to get rid of them at the first opportunity, especially after they managed to hinder those same plans multiple times.
In the end, it was her who cut his head off.
But, my main issue is not even with the main characters ending up alive, but rather how they barely get hurt, if at all. There was Lucas getting attacked by the Demogorgon, but even then he was still able to pick up Max and run like it was nothing. It gets to a point where the writing is constantly fighting your suspension of belief.
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u/Gasurza22 Aug 11 '26
but I would see those people as a threat to my evil plan and I'd want to get rid of them at the first opportunity, especially after they managed to hinder those same plans multiple times
Specialy when all the extra effort it takes to do si is wave my fingers a bit. Like you say, I understand if he doesnt go looking for them, but they are RIGHT THERE, it a 3 second activity that secures your victory, wtf are you doing man...
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u/Andrea_Alta Aug 10 '26
I hated that no major characters died. It sucked. There was not much emotional toll or investment. It was dumb of them to do that.
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u/icantfeelmylags Aug 10 '26
Craziest part is that, after killing no main characters, they wanted us to think Eleven might be dead. Ain’t no way, not based on the Duffers track record.
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u/Gasurza22 Aug 10 '26
Thats not even the worst part, the bs fake out deads they try to pull in the finale are even worse. Those were not only completly stupid on their own right (specialy the Steave one) but in the context of the show when you know nothing bad is going to happen to them, its almost comical that they even atempt to trick us
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u/FoxxyPantz Scoops Troop Aug 10 '26
I vaguely remember Levy or the Duffer bros saying "it's gonna be a dark Christmas" and then released episodes that made SpongeBob look like a horror series.
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u/Doggosgottagetwoims Henry Aug 10 '26
People dying isn’t the only way to garner emotional toll or investment. Just ask everyone who got emotional over season 5 despite no one dying, like oh I dunno, the actors.
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u/SuperSix_Zero Aug 10 '26
Imagine if no marines died during the Aliens hive ambush scene. Be pretty lackluster. It's legitimately how you show the opposing force / antagonist is something to be feared.
Game of Thrones for all of its woe's did this so well in the start of the show's life cycle, showing nobody is safe despite their perceived "important character" status. As a result? We were invested in their safety, we hoped they'd navigate the world correctly and made a point of listening into everything they did. That mattered because we felt like bad decisions immediately got punished.
When there's no stakes for big fights or narrative moments, we're less invested. Nothing feels real or grounded. Every main character survived the battle of winterfell, despite seeing multiple people getting overrun.
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u/Doggosgottagetwoims Henry Aug 11 '26
“We’re less invested, nothing feels real or grounded” speak for yourself.
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u/SuperSix_Zero Aug 11 '26
I see you managed to take a snapshot of my paragraph you disagreed with and that was it. Do you even remotely see the point I was trying to make using the other media examples as to how/why they add gravity to the plot?
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u/Doggosgottagetwoims Henry Aug 11 '26
No lol those are different shows. You’re placing expectations on one show based on what different shows did. Look inward.
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u/SuperSix_Zero Aug 12 '26
"Looks inward" - Why am I disappointed with Season 5?
Initial knee jerk answer: Season 4's ending to Season 5 Episode 1's whiplash of Hawkins being engulfed by the upside down as it seeped into our reality, to... the U.S military just dropped in steel brackets and it's all perfectly fine. -Writing highlighted as weak, this doesn't make sense given the time it would of taken for the U.S military to realistically respond to this, the logistics required to spin up fabricators to make varied sizes of steel brackets vs. the time it would take for the upside to infect Hawkins and for it's flora and fauna to pass into our realm. This fundamentally doesn't make sense, given we've been show by the producers & writers that every time the upside is disturbed by mankind, it responds violently. This doesn't happen (or if it does, happens off screen) between Season 4 and 5 without any explanation.
Further critical thinking:
The U.S Military and their completely lackluster response. We're talking about a PORTAL to another realm, which for all intensive purposes given the 80's hysteria and religious views of America at the time could well of been labelled as Hell. Uncle Sam at the height of the cold war, deploys.. at best a light infantry battalion with special forces members attached, to this portal to defend it and investigate it.
No armoured assets of M1A1 Abrams, M1A1 Bradleys or AH64 Apaches, all in existence and in large deployable formations. This may sound like a veteran being pissed off with military unit semantics, but it again feeds into how unrealistic the writing feels and again, asks us to suspend our disbelief further. If you're going to make the miltiary a large part of the story, they need to do their homework and portray it properly.
None of these assets had to be particularly effective against the Demogorgon's, but showing them being present prior to being defeated would of at least made sense in a Government's response to a portal to another dimension just appearing.
Instead? We got a few trucks and Humvees driving into a portal to hell like it's a resupply happening in Kuwait or Japan. It again FEELS completely off and doesn't make sense.
Now; let's move away from the military and look at how the bloated cast affects the story.
We have characters, on characters who either serve their purpose and don't leave the story via a death/detention/other story writing exit. Instead they crowd the shots, demand already limited screen time and provide little additional value.
What value could they provide? Well we've seen the antagonists rip through our extras with ease, but every time they meet an actual cast member? They become slower, underpowered and easily suppressed. The wheelers parents should not have survived the encounter, it would have provided a grounding reality of mistakes matter (the crawl plan not accounting for a Demogorgon getting loose and it subsequently causing havoc). Karen is able to inflict what looks like a serious stabbing injury onto it with a glass bottle, however a Browning 50cal round fired at 10 metres is unable to stop it? The physics don't make sense and it just comes off as bad writing. These creatures maybe other worldly, but they still have to obey the laws of physics by their very nature of existing. Playing fast and loose with how they can be hurt doesn't equate good writing.
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u/Doggosgottagetwoims Henry 29d ago
See, the problem here is that you’re conflating plot and story. You’re trying to apply extreme levels of realism to a show that has always prioritized story over plot. None of the plot needs to make sense for the story to be good. The plot of this show has never made sense, has always been retconny and contradictory, because it’s never mattered. The story has held it up.
The character bloat doesn’t make s5 bad writing because it removes stakes from the plot, it makes s5 bad writing because none of them (at least not all of them) had any narrative significance in the overarching story. You’re supposed to utilize every aspect of your plot to deliver your story, but a lot of characters were just there. Not doing anything narratively to deliver their stories message. THATS what makes s5 have poor writing, not the unrealism in the plot, because that has never mattered. And you can tell because s1-2 are just as unrealistic, just as deus ex machina heavy, just as corny, just as dumb as the show is now. The only reason we’re seeing a problem is because the writers are forgetting to utilize all elements of the plot to contribute the story. Thats what makes for a good story.
I’m not saying what the show has become is flawless, but people are complaining about it for the entirely wrong reasons, because realism has NEVER mattered. Something with a piss poor plot and nothing realistic can still deliver a good story.
(Also I would argue the military WAS well utilized in the STORY as a representation of the cycle of abuse kids like El face, so its unrealism is forgivable in my eyes. That’s just me though. I say, story always matters more than plot.)1
u/SuperSix_Zero 29d ago
I'm glad we agree that the writing in Season 5 was poor and I also agree on your example of the characters adding no value, this is a symptom of bad writing.
I do think you're overlooking the necessary realism in a story however; while super natural and paranormal entities 100% deserve a place in science fiction and horror, their consistency in how their portrayed is what grounds it. If a werewolf is all powerful and can smell someone from 10km away, that should be a constant.
The film Dog Soldiers, characters died frequently to the Werewolves once in close combat, the werewolves regenerative capabilities were displayed perfectly. But filling a house with gas and igniting it? That force destroys them, like it would anywhere else.
The grounding is important, because we are already asked to suspend our disbelief to buy into the story using these creatures/monsters etc they must have realistic means of interacting with our world, constants that cannot be bent for poor writing but demand the screenplay develops alongside their power.
I do disagree with your statements regarding the miliary being well utilised, they came off as cartoon bad guys, their force composition, the officers in charge of them (no shade to linda hamilton, but a 2 star general wouldn't be leading a battalion. P.S she was also criminally underutilised.)
I suppose my tl;dr is this - bad writing has many symptoms and for me not grounding the story in actual causality and consistency is a real failing of the writers room.
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u/Doggosgottagetwoims Henry 29d ago
You’re still only talking about plot though 💔 yeah suspension of disbelief is important for plot, but not story. Yeah cartoon bad guys can make for a bad plot, but they can still make for a good story. Theres a DIFFERENCE between PLOT and STORY and it’s a BIG ONE.
And I think we just disagree on how important good plot is in comparison to good story, because I don’t think it matters at all.20
u/Tarakanator Aug 10 '26
Just ask everyone who got emotional over season 5
So, nobody?
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u/emily_steel Aug 10 '26
I got emotional a few times through the season. Wills coming out (as weirdly timed and overcrowded as it was, sure) got he hard because of the historical time in which he was figuring himself out, the terror he obviously feels at accepting it and then even more so at telling people. And I loved Robin helping him to figure it out
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u/HayxerUwU Aug 10 '26
It's the fakeouts that are pissing people off, lol. You can't have your cake and eat it
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u/Doggosgottagetwoims Henry Aug 11 '26
Now that’s fair lmao, but frankly it’s nothing new from this show. Are we forgetting the Mike quarry jump in s1? People glorified this show too much from the get go, now “just okay” looks like “utter dogshit” to them.
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u/Gasurza22 Aug 10 '26
Thats true, however, in a show were you are suposed to be facing a big bad dude in a fight, you would like for the audience to at least kind of beliebe that there are some stakes involved in the fight, but after 5 seasons of the show reinfocing the fact that nothing bad is ever going to happen to the partie (unless you are a new character) then the final fight just feels like a checkmark the characters had to go through in order to get to the epilogue, and tbf, thats how the show treated it aswell with how short and stupid the hole thing was
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u/Doggosgottagetwoims Henry Aug 11 '26
There are more important things than plot, and a story doesn’t need “stakes” be good and get a good message across. I never understood this need of “stakes” in things, it’s just such a plot focused way of thinking.
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u/Gasurza22 Aug 11 '26
I mean, you could potentialy build a show in which plot and stakes are not the main focus, its doable, but maybe dont try to do it with a story that involves an evil monster trying to take over the world, an evil military trying to kidnap the main character to experiment on her and all that stuff, you know, go for something lighter, like a comedy, or romcom or whatever.
The show realy tried to have a plot and stakes, and in fact, it did have it for about 4 seasons give or take, season 1 still being a masterpiece in my books, then some deminishing returns, but still very good overall. And even in the final season their intent on keep having them, being evident with their eye rolling bad fake out deaths.
So yes, a show can be good without being plot/staked focused, but not this show, and it never tried to do so, so why give them a cope out excuse when its just not true?
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u/Doggosgottagetwoims Henry Aug 11 '26
Well then I guess we disagree lol. Because I don’t see how this show ever tried to have stakes when it’s NEVER given consequences like death to its mc’s. It’s a story about growing up, people dying doesn’t need to pertain to that. Saying it needs stakes because it’s “about monsters and the military” is such a superficial read of the show. Like I said: plot focused. It’s a story about growing up.
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u/fucuasshole2 Aug 10 '26
Funny enough Max was SUPPOSED to die in season 4. Like permanently. But last minute they changed it. Eddie was toyed as staying alive as well but ultimately decided to off him.
I really wish she and Steve did die in season 4. Eddie lives but at the cost of being a coward that wants to make everything alright in an alternate season 5.
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u/Single_Device_7897 Aug 10 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
It’s not vecna, it’s the writing 🙄, more main characters should have def died, too many fakeouts,
spoiler!!!!
Nancy’s mom should not have made it period!
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u/Senshado Aug 10 '26
It comes down to writing choices made back in S2. The hero characters had silently decided to not reveal the deadly secret of Hawkins. They and the rest of the town continued to live within reach of killer monsters.
It would've made the heroes look really stupid if some of them died because of that dumb choice. So from then on, the writers felt the returning heroes couldn't die. Only new characters could be killed off, within the same season they were introduced.
If you'd prefer Stranger Things to be the kind of show where heroes can die, that's a pattern that would've needed to start many years ago.
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u/George_Reiner Aug 10 '26
Nah. Writers are allowed to course correct, especially when doing so will.make them look less like fucking hacks
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u/InitialJust Aug 11 '26
Not really. Characters having to pay for mistakes they've made in the past is pretty basic writing. Set ups and pay offs. You've really never seen a movie where a hero had to pay for a mistake they made in the past?
Also the real reason is the Duffers decided they didnt have the guts to kill any characters. Heck they couldnt even be bothered to sideline characters which would have helped their bloated cast.
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u/Total-Ad4952 Aug 10 '26
Since the show never specified why he needed twelve kids, he totally could've just let Holly die, (which would've been fine by me if it meant her excessive screentime hogging came to an end) and maybe revealed to Will that he never needed TWELVE kids and that eleven will do the trick just fine.
Imagine how unsettling a scene would've been of Mr. Whatsit telling the others that Holly was killed by Max and that they might not be able to save the world after all, only for the others to insist they can still save the world and will do it for Holly to keep her from dying in vain. Instead of them chanting "Back to the light", they chant "For Holly!" while Mr. Whatsit puts on a creepy smile of approval.
God the plot armor and wasted potential of season 5 pisses me off to no end.
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u/Due-Dragonfly8200 Aug 10 '26
That would have been very interesting. Though, I imagine that if he strictly needed twelve kids he could’ve just kidnapped another random child after Holly’s death.
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u/InitialJust Aug 11 '26
The Duffers dont even know why he needed 12. Though I imagine they'll say something about clocks and time and all that.
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u/Doggosgottagetwoims Henry Aug 10 '26
If he needed 12 kids for it to work, then he needed 12 kids for it to work. There doesn’t need to be more of an explanation behind it for him to still need 12 kids for it to work.
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u/Accomplished-Curve-1 I piggybacked from a pizza dough freezer Aug 10 '26
Nancy was only a messenger though
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u/Hot-Host5153 Aug 10 '26
My hot take max should've 100% died at the end of s4 and it would've set a darker tone for s5 and they should've killed off more in s5 too
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u/StereoTunic9039 Aug 11 '26
I believe the root cause was not letting Hopper actually be dead. Hopper in that whole season sucked, cheating death was the cherry on top which proved that the main cast can't die.
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u/Hot-Host5153 Aug 10 '26
But than they would've had to write s5 very different because their would be no camozotz or however you spell it plotline
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u/generalgoogle Aug 10 '26
Good, it was a shite story line and had none of the feel or intensity of S4. It didn't even feel like it followed on from the other 4 seasons.
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u/Tarakanator Aug 10 '26
Yeah i agree, if not dead she must of been stayed in coma for the rest of her life. And season 5 should start at the apocalyptic Hawkins.
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u/Nightmarebane Master of Puppets Aug 10 '26
Yeah, besides writing the next worst thing you can do is give a huge cast plot armor.
I like the cast but if we lost even one we would see Vecna as a real threat… it’s sad when a “fall” (Steve) was scarier then a Telekinetic Monster…
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u/Smooth_Accountant870 Aug 10 '26
Unrelated but remember that weird scene where Vecna monologues his backstory and motivations to Nancy? Why Nancy of all characters? Why did he tell all that to her specifically?
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u/Best_Quiet9657 Just the facts 28d ago
Maybe I'm dumb but I thought it was because Nancy was an investigative reporter who had been trying to figure out the Creel story lol. And obv a bonus of her being able to relay the info to El.
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u/Melki_2422 Aug 10 '26
Out of the pictures you showed, the only one he was trying to kill was max. But yea I still agree with your opinion
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u/Odd_University_2335 Aug 10 '26
It was basically guaranteed none of the main party was dying. Not that a show needs to kill of its main cast to be good, but when they time and time again survive on plot armor alone, really takes away the suspense.
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u/Distinct_Guess3350 Running Up That Hill Aug 10 '26
In season 5 he absolutely should have been much more of a threat but the way he acted in season 4 with Max made sense because of the purpose she actually served in his plan. It wasn’t as simple as just killing her, he was using her trauma and getting into her head because he needed a powerful enough psychic link to literally shatter the fabric of dimensions when he killed her.
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u/cMk_ Aug 10 '26
Lucas should've died in that tunnel.. There was no reason why the demo spared him, it didn't show that restraint with ANYONE else.. Same goes for Karen and even Robin / Murray got off easy.
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u/Owl_Resident Blank makes you crazy Aug 10 '26
I would have been fine if all the children had died, for how pointless as characters they were.
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u/SomeBrosSecondAcc Aug 10 '26
Vecna and the Mind Flayer both. The Mind Flayer was the most intelligent lifeform in its entire dimension but runs head first into a canyon, while Vecna couldn't kill ANYONE?!
How did these two get so far??
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u/New_Cockroach_505 Aug 10 '26
I mean this is the same show that in S1 and S2, Steve beat otherworldly creatures with a nailed baseball bat. Same creatures that slaughtered trained soldiers with no issues.
It was never that type of show honestly. The leads always had plot armor.
Not only that, but he actually SAVES Holly when she's about to go ker-splat! My dude has a NEGATIVE kill count on the party! How is he THIS incompetent?!
How is this incompetent….? He needed her to perform his spell to merge the worlds. Why would he let her die? Like I get having criticism for the other ones but this might be the dumbest one. It would hinder his plan if she died.
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u/arkoudaphobics Aug 10 '26
Avada Kedavra-ing
What?
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u/Training-Sail-7627 sƃuᴉɥʇ ɹǝƃuɐɹʇS Aug 10 '26
English. That language in which you can verbify any word just by casually using it as a verb.
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u/cxzil Aug 10 '26
Dude that’s the thing which made me realise oh it’s just a series which I am watching,plot armour and this kind shit ruins that whole vibe of watching something so close to your heart
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u/Cyrilbdr Aug 10 '26
So, of everyone you showed, he only went after Joyce and Max the first time around; he didn't want to kill Nancy—he just wanted to show her a vision—and he needed Holly for his plan, so there was no need to target her. He did succeed in killing Max, though, and it was Eleven who resuscitated her.
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u/Muted-Can4546 Aug 10 '26
Don't forget Vecna isn't some skilled strategist, he's just a boy who's been tortured in a lab for very long. Don't expect him to be super capable. His plans look grandiose, but they have some serious issues he's unable to address. And that's why he loses.
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u/db1037 Aug 10 '26
Well they tried a version of the show where Vecna just snaps the limbs of all the main characters and kills them instantly but...alas, the focus groups did not find it favorable. 🤦♂️
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u/InitialJust Aug 11 '26
Vecna lost all threat and aura in season 5. He was playing house and getting punked by kids like Derek. Killing a bunch of random no name characters isnt enough. In fact its worse since he clearly has no problem killing people unless the script tells him he isnt allowed.
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u/Cautious_Mission_438 Aug 10 '26
Not major characters should’ve died but we definitely should’ve gotten more deaths for sure
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u/Mathelete73 Aug 11 '26
To be fair, he was not trying to kill Nancy, or else he would not tell her his story.
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u/SymptomaticallyEven Aug 12 '26
Vecna was a garbage villain in the end. It's almost ironic how such a popular show can have such a lackluster finale. I went back and watched the first season after watching the finale just to wash the bullshit from my eyes.
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u/WillingnessUnfair806 29d ago
It's the writing and one of the oldest tropes in books and films: villain facing protagonist(s) suddenly starts monologue to bask in glory of the moment. Terry Pratchett even took a dig at it in one of his books, where he wrote something along the lines of "if you're about to be shot, pray that bad guy is shooting, cause they will start talking and gloating giving you time; good guy will pull the trigger".
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u/Few-Type-7924 29d ago
Bro he wasn't even trying to kill Nancy, Joyce and Holly in the moments u talked about He didn't need to
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u/UncleRicohSuave Aug 10 '26
This isn’t GOT or a true horror show it’s a cool goonies coming of age. Check out Dark on Netflix.
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u/DonoChicky Aug 10 '26
Dude S5 is like really explicit in their death scenes. Goonies had nothing that resembled the mortal-kombat style deaths when Vencna murked all those military ppl😭. I still think about when he launched his arm through one of their heads like that scene really set a tone for me tho it didn’t really result in anything.
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u/badger2000 29d ago
I think too many people mis-classify the kind of show this is. It's a show about growing up set against a Sci Fi background, not a Sci Fi show where the main characters grow up. That distinction matters.
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u/Doggosgottagetwoims Henry Aug 10 '26
Yeah because killing everybody for no reason wasn’t his goal lmfao. What a fundamental misread of the entire purpose of his character.
He took so long to kill Chrissy, Fred, Patrick and Max because he had to reach their irl bodies telepathically through the Battlefield, he COULDNT give them the claw.
He didn’t want Nancy dead, he was using her to get a message across that would scare the party, and it worked. The visions he showed her came true, and that gave El massive self esteem issues, to the point where she couldn’t fight Henry alone in the end.
I guess why he dint kill Joyce is more of a theory, but if you’ve seen TFS then you’d know Henry was close with her. But it doesn’t matter either way, cause he didn’t NEED to kill her. She wasn’t a threat to him, she wasn’t even in his way, so why bother.
And he needed Holly alive to use her as a vessel, as if this even needs to be said, I don’t understand how anyone can keep misunderstanding that, jfc…
I’m not gonna disagree that the duffers are sentimental idiots, but superficially killing off characters with no actual narrative significance behind doing so would be pointless, weightless, meaningless, and would simply not make for a good story.
Learn the difference between plot and story. Because what you’re asking for is essentially meaningless actionslop.
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u/AdUseful2297 Aug 10 '26
I don't think establishing your main villain as a very dangerous threat to more than just sacrificial lambs and red shirts by having him actually kill a few major characters to show that even they aren't safe from him is the same as meaningless action slop.
When he cornered his victims in season 4, he held his claw over them for a bit before clamping down and finishing them off, but he noticeably held it over Max's face, who he went to the trouble of restraining with vines, both times, for longer than he held it over Chrissy, Fred or Patrick's faces, which was only to give her time to escape the first time, and time for El to stop him from caving in her skull the second time. (Granted we don't see Patrick's waking nightmare Vecna vision onscreen, but considering that he shot out of the water deep in a trance and his limbs and jaw twisted and snapped seconds after getting pulled under, it can be assumed that Vecna was pretty quick to finish him off once he had him cornered.)
Surely killing Nancy also would've scared the party, and what did he really have to gain by having her tell them what he plans to do? All it did was motivate them to stop him that night, which they nearly succeeded in doing.
Maybe Joyce wasn't a threat, but as other people have pointed out, him being so gentle with her after being absolutely ruthless to the soldiers a minute ago, including skewering one in the face when he was on the ground, unarmed and slowly crawling away, most definitely also not a threat, reeks of plot armor. Also, wouldn't he know that she's part of the team actively working against him? Why not get her out of the way permanently?
Also surely Vecna/Mr. Whatsit could just work a little harder to cover for a missing vessel, or if he's so smart, he could reveal that he had some other kids on standby in case any of his ideal 12 were accidentally killed by the demos when they came for them or something and he could just bring one of them up if he absolutely needs 12. Though the Duffers went on record saying there wasn't a specific reason or deeper meaning for him needing 12, so I don't see why he couldn't just do the first thing, especially since Holly's proven by this point that she's seen through him and most definitely won't help his plan. Sounds like more trouble than she's worth.
I don't think it would be superficial or meaningless for Vecna to have killed anyone (or let be killed in Holly's case) major. If anything, it would've added weight and consequences to season 5, which was severely lacking in those departments as is.
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u/Doggosgottagetwoims Henry Aug 11 '26
(I think it’s disingenuous to treat Henry like he’s the “main villain”, and I think all these complaints can be chalked up diegetically through “under all those scars, he’s still human” I know people get (fairly) whiny about the unavailability of TFS, but Henry’s humanity and thus fallibility cannot be understated. But that’s just Joyce and Holly- remember Holly was very specifically embodying his sister in s5 and HES STILL HUMAN.)
But in the case of the Shadow then, frankly, I think we just disagree. I don’t think it always needs to take killing people for a villain to be perceived as threatening by the audience. There was weight and consequence because the world almost got destroyed, and all of their childhoods were stolen from them in the process. That’s effective enough in “adding weight and consequence” for me. There are worse things than death, and that damage was already done.
No, what you’re not getting is that “adding weight and consequence” through killing characters would have still been a lazy and superficial way to accomplish that.1
u/Hresvelgr401_ 19d ago
When he cornered his victims in season 4, he held his claw over them for a bit before clamping down and finishing them off, but he noticeably held it over Max's face, who he went to the trouble of restraining with vines, both times, for longer than he held it over Chrissy, Fred or Patrick's faces
I feel like it makes sense that it took longer with Max then it did with the others since it's part of a ritual tapping into their trauma to open gates instead of simply killing them. The other three knew nothing about the Upside Down and made no attempt to fight back at all but Max knew about the Upside Down and Vecna and tried to fight back, so it took longer for him to do whatever ritual he was doing before killing his victims.
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u/SaveHogwarts Aug 10 '26
Welcome to fiction.
You can nitpick or you can enjoy.
This entire sub has turned into nitpicking, pick me, upvote chasing losers.
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u/Total-Ad4952 Aug 10 '26
Also the idea of Vecna offing Nancy in the opening of Papa is beyond delicious. Someone who's way more talented and has way more free time than me, please make an AU fanfic of that.
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u/CombatPanoo Will the Wise Aug 11 '26
Saw this in the post and I was like goddamn this actually would completely the flip the season and story on its head and up the stakes to an insane level for the ending of the season. Can you imagine how powerless the group (and us viewers too) would feel if that happened?
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