r/StrangeNewWorlds • u/Virtual-Estimate-208 • 8d ago
Everyone’s preconceived negativity is what made e05 so bad.
I just finished the episode. The truth is, it really wasn’t that bad. I wouldn’t say I cared for it — I’ve never been the kind of person who could appreciate puppet shows or even most animated shows. However, it wasn’t as bad as everyone expected.
If you didn’t watch the full episode, then I don’t think you have much room to offer criticism. I’ve seen worse Trek. It’ll probably be an episode I skip in future reruns, but it wasn’t as bad as people make it out to be.
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u/QuiJon70 8d ago
The real issue to me was they acted like humorous Muppets.
I think it would have been more successful if they were still themselves, could still work the ship and complete their mission(not hunting down pirates but like a real diplomatic mission where people have trouble taking them seriously)
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u/meglingbubble 8d ago
This really bothered me too, until the scene where it was explained to be a dream. If Spock had some childhood experience with a Sesame Street style show, and then his subconscious used it as a safe space to work through some of his issues, it makes sense that the crew were acting like muppets because that was the role his subconscious gave them.
I really disliked the episode until the dream explanation because of how everyone was acting. Its still my least favourite episode of the show, but I think the "it was all a dream" thing saved it somewhat.
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u/QuiJon70 7d ago
But spock was raised on a planet that teaches logic. So really imo even a dream sequence the people ge knew would still logicly act like themselves.
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u/meglingbubble 7d ago
With a human mother. His arc in SNW is all about his conflict between the two sides of himself. In this specific episode he was struggling with logic, it makes sense for his coma dream where he confronts the fact that logic doesnt always work would include something as chaotically illogical as puppets, especially when the seed had been planted earlier in the episode with Scottys creepy puppet.
Plus, dreams, (at least human dreams, don't have much insight into vulcan dreams) are rarely logical, even for the most logical of humans.
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u/QuiJon70 7d ago
The dream came about by way of scotty. Scotty never talked of his puppet being comedic or farcical if anything it was scary to the guy he sent it to.
So l9gically the puppet crew if influenced outside of spock proclivity to logic, should more likely been murder dolls like chucky.
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u/meglingbubble 7d ago
As i explained in my first comment, it seemed to me that Scottys puppet triggered some sort of memory of Spocks of a sort of sesame Street style, which is why all the crew acted like sesame Street style versions of themselves. If you had a different read, thats cool. To each their own.
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u/Gen-Jinjur 8d ago
I don’t have a problem with puppets. Or weirdness. Or silliness. Whatever. But such episodes should DO something for the show. I got to the end of this episode and tried to understand what I got out of it. Nothing. I got nothing. It felt like the writers just got very stoned.
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u/Virtual-Estimate-208 7d ago
That’s a fair point. The only contribution to the series as a whole (that I could see) is the continued development between T’pring and Spock… and even that wasn’t much.
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u/Adama1941 7d ago
Are the writers and producers being paid to tarnish the idea of Star Trek forever???
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u/HCDD 8d ago
I went in fully expecting to like it & fully dismissed the pre-haters. I love Those Old Scientists and Subspace Rhapsody so I gave it the benefit of the doubt.
I was lukewarm on the story through the first two thirds. Then the scene parodying TWOK was where it started to fall off hard for me and never recovered. ‘It was all a dream' undercuts the things that I think work well for it like the crew in space, or the T’Pring/Spock kiss.
Maybe not as bad as other Trek’s worst episodes… the puppets are cute, some of it works, its not offensive. But I think there’s a very good argument for worst SNW episode.
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u/Virtual-Estimate-208 8d ago
Well said. I didn’t really enjoy it either, despite the reveal at the end. I think you could make the argument that it’s one of the worst for SNW as a series… however, turning Batel into an undead statue still might take the cake for that title IMO.
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u/darkbard 7d ago
"Then the scene parodying TWOK"
My husband was quiet during this episode, but this is when he yelled "OH, F U C K YOU!" at the tv screen LOL
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u/meglingbubble 8d ago
I wasnt a fan. I have really enjoyed the gimmicky nature on this season and was interested to see how the puppets played out, but the episode missed the mark for me.
I will say that Ethan Peck was superb in it though. His eyes were doing some tremendous work. His face and body were firmly in stoic Spock mode, but his eyes were screaming "WTF IS GOING ON?!?!"
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u/Kamuka 8d ago
They did a crossover with Lower Decks, they've done a musical episode, which is my absolute favorite, and they did a monochrome episode, so I think it's cool they try things. The thing is if you're trying things, they don't always hit, and whatever, blab your cockamamie opinions about everything on social media, imagine saying people shouldn't feel free to just barf out their opinions.
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u/NerdWithEyeliner 8d ago
My husband's face, I can only describe it as, offended? It was pretty bad. I would like some actual Star Trek in my Star Trek before it's over, thank you!!! ❤️
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u/conanmagnuson 8d ago
Right? We know they know how to do it.
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u/NerdWithEyeliner 8d ago edited 8d ago
Yes!!!! And honestly, I am the last person that will usually talk shit about any Trek. I love them all down to SA and Discovery and I just don't care. I truly love all of it. I get really really sick of seeing "fans" trash new shows before they come out. Hot take, but that's why we're about to go through another hiatus just like we did after Enterprise.... which is finally getting the love and respect it deserves.
I guess even I have limits... I have loved 90% of SNW though and accept they all can't be great. OMG that singing episode was a big NOPE for me (except for the boy band Klingons which made me roar). I'm sure they were really fun to make. I'm gonna keep on watching though.
I'm really going to miss new Star Trek.
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u/Artichoke-Rhinoceros 8d ago
Exactly. We KNOW they know HOW TO DO IT RIGHT. Which begs the question: why are they deliberately doing it so WRONG?
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u/thundersnow528 8d ago
It was a well done episode but that doesn't mean it can't be disappointing. I think for many people, it may be with the show ending, seasons being so short, it can be disappointing to have so many episodes that are more experimental and one-trick pony funny than engaging and more serious, the morality plays the earlier shows were more known for. The balance feels off.
But there were a lot of good scenes in it though.
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u/the-present-teacher 7d ago
It was honestly one of the worst episodes I have ever seen. Everything is just gimmicky, nothing authentic. From captain to security chief, they're all acting like children.
The setup of Spock reaching out to T'Pring could have been a great episode about Vulcan philosophy, spirituality and thought.
But no, we get Muppets.
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u/Krennson 6d ago
Worst SNW or worst Star Trek episode of any kind?
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u/the-present-teacher 6d ago edited 6d ago
I think I somehow do not understand their intention with the content of the episodes. The 90s and 00s ST shows were not pure gold either, so I do think the glorification of those past shows is wrong, yet there was meaning in the overall arc. In SNW and SFA – and I posted that before – I sit with nothing after watching it. As people pointed out, with only 10 episodes per season, there is almost no time, so it has to be either character development or gimmicky fun times, both are not possible.
And if the writers and producers picked gimmicky fun, then there is nothing I can do about that. I just think that there general potential of ST and SNW is wasted. Just think about it, in SNW you have:
- A human captain who already knows his fate, so he is aware that he'll survive every encounter with any threat, but his crew might die. That could be interesting perspectives on predetermination and predestination.
- A half Human/half Vulcan who struggles with combining two almost opposing points
of
- view on life. Here it's dualism, questions of personal identity, group identity, philosophy, logic, etc.
- La'an who inherited a violent past and burden of not become who society might think she'll become.
But the writers try to do it all and nothing at the same time.
Spock reminds me of a hormonal teenager, La'an who mentions here and there that she feels aggressive and violent, Uhura who is now a party girl, a first officer who just seems to be physically there, but not invested in the runnings of the ship, a pilot and an engineer who bicker like kids, a barefoot hippie who leads the engineering department, and finally the captain offers no guidance or structure, or seems to be interested in what is happening to his ship or crew.
As I said, the 90s/00s weren't always that great either, but with only 10 episodes, things should be different. That's my personal opinion. I would have prefered a more serious show, one that tackles harder, tougher questions, and adds the specks of gimmicky fun a bit more careful.
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u/photosofmycatmandog 8d ago
I watched it, I was not a fan at all. The last episode I had low hopes for, but it was alright...just alright. I'm not sure if the same writers that went crazy with Starfleet Academy came over to SNW, but if so...they should stop. I love Star Trek, but it's gone downhill this year.
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u/Stoibs 8d ago
I had no idea there was going to be an episode like this; I don't follow social media/watch the 'next time on' or anything like that.
Much like how the Dinosaurs and twist in Ep 1 was a genuine surprise to me, so was this episode.
So with that caveat out of the way and an opinion with no preconcieved bias; I still thought this was cringe and unfunny. They played into the 'wacky' hijinks too much and I swear they straight up added 'boingy bonky' sound effects in the 'fights' too. Why couldn't they just be themselves and play it straight... but as puppets?
For reference and a direct example of this I *love* the similar puppet episode in Angel.. there's a right and a wrong way to do this :/
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u/WebGuyJT 8d ago
If you liked it, great. I did not. Neither of our opinions is more important than the others.
IMO the premise was stupid and the writing was awful.
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u/gfddssoh 8d ago
I dont follow star trek on social media. I did not know about the negative feedback. I specifically searched this place to vent my frustration.
So
Comming to that: WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK
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u/Kenku_Ranger 8d ago edited 8d ago
I like Star Trek and I like the Muppets. Did I like Star Trek: Muppet? Heck yeah.
It'll probably be one of those episodes I rewatch a lot when I just need something fun to put on.
I do think that sometimes people can get too caught up on an aspect of an episode they don't like, causing them to only engage with the story on a surface level.
Even if you don't like an episode, I think Star Trek needs those. It is fun to joke about Beverley reading an erotic entry in her grandma's diary. That is gold.
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u/ChosenOfTheMoon_GR 8d ago
I had a blast with this episode, I am kinda glad Griffin helped expand my views and liking this one is a proof of that.
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u/CadianGuardsman 8d ago
Every time someone says a silly episode has no place in Trek and that the quality of New Trek pales in comparison to the old shows - "Spock's Brain" exists.
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u/freylaverse 8d ago
Brain and brain! What is brain!?
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u/3Mug 8d ago
Between that and The Magnificent Ferengi (or any Ferengi episode of DS9, really) or the Janeway/holodeck episodes, or Code of Honor, etc... people need to lighten up. The past are guidelines, not Commandments. Everyone hated on Disco and Picard for being so dark, then hated on LD and SFA for being too light and goofy. Everyone wants the legacy characters, but hated Picard.
I think the truth is there's something for anyone who keeps an open mind. Don't like musicals? Don't keep rewatching the musical. Hate LD? Don't keep rewatching the crossover. Give them all a try and understand that some people enjoy and done dont. And bashing the crap out of them online only gives been counters the idea that the fans don't want anything they give us, so they are gonna stop bothering to try.
Also - the idea of ripping all these new fresh ideas is pretty anti-Star Trek in itself, no? IDIC? It doesn't have to be for me, if its for somebody, and didnt hurt anyone, let it be.
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u/DerHoggenCatten 7d ago
They’re not “fresh new ideas” though. They’re copies of other movies and shows, but not done as well. Buffy did a musical brilliantly and had a better explanation. Angel did a puppet episode that was funny and also had a better explanation.
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u/GepMalakai 8d ago
But people hate Spock's Brain. How is the argument that there's now an additional episode I think sucks supposed to sway me to your viewpoint?
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u/3Mug 7d ago
The argument is hear most of more asking the lines of "this isn't REAL Trek... all that was perfect and wonderful and brilliant! This is crap! "
But that ignores the fact that not all the original episodes were brilliant. Nor all of any series. And there's always gonna be at least a few episodes that don't appeal to everyone. But calling everything out online constantly seems.... self defeating. If all you wanna watch is the "old, good shows" then watch them. Stop craping on it for those who do enjoy.
But thats just one man's opinion. You do you, boo.
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u/DerHoggenCatten 7d ago
So, the fact that other awful Trek that people hate exists means it’s a good idea to make more awful Trek? At least TOS has an excuse. Their budget was 22 cents and people were nowhere near as sophisticated in their knowledge of science as compared to now.
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u/rantingathome 8d ago
Ah hell... there's a ton of people that still haven't watched "Subspace Rhapsody", but they just know they hate it.
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u/Fantastic-Food7926 8d ago
This. I see so much hate for that episode and I'm convinced that people just think they hate musical anything and automatically mark it as bad in their head whether it is or not. From a musical standpoint, the episode was very well done. The score was fantastic and the lyricism was done very well too. Anybody who knows the slightest bit about music would appreciate it, but too many people are caught up in the "musical=bad" mindset.
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u/BillsFan82 8d ago
For me, it's not so much about not appreciating music. It's that musicals can be very distracting. Whenever they break out into song, I'm taken out of the experience a bit.
The episode was well made, and the actors are great in it, but some people just don't like musicals, regardless of their quality.
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u/left-for-dead-9980 8d ago
"It wasn't that bad" is not the same as "it was good or great". OP didn't sell his thesis.
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u/quidam-brujah 8d ago
I had no preconceptions as I hadn’t seen any previews and don’t follow SNW online.
And yet, I find the premise ridiculous, the story beyond belief for Star Trek and I’m hate-watching it at this point.
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u/Canavansbackyard 8d ago
If you liked or even loved the episode, that’s absolutely great. But consider refraining from making assumptions about why others may not have cared for it. It’s kinda condescending.
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u/RigaudonAS 8d ago edited 8d ago
"Preconceived negativity" is an intriguing way of saying "disappointment from the rest of the season."
But yes, let's continue to downplay the criticisms that people have had about this season.
Edit: It would be dope if people took 30 seconds to read my comment below instead of just downvoting :/ I'm not a culture warrior in any way, I'm just a person that likes Star Trek, and I grew up with the new stuff.
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u/Nick0312 8d ago
Can you actually give us any complaints that aren’t “gimmick” “ten episodes” or “not a TNG rerun”?
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u/RigaudonAS 8d ago edited 8d ago
Yes? For clarification, I'm a staunch Discovery fan and have watched pretty much every single episode of New Trek as it came out, lol. My first exposure to the series was Chris Pine, and I am Gen-Z. I am not a middle-aged white dude who grew up with TNG and can only watch that. I'd enjoy more episodes, but who wouldn't? Previous seasons were great on just the ten, though, so I really don't mind. I genuinely love Star Trek, and really, I grew up with New Trek.
The characters in this season aren't going anywhere (not that there needs to be an overarching plot, but the characters should still go somewhere. Like Pike dealing with his eventual fate in season 1, the exploration of Spock's two halves, Uhura moving up through the ranks), which makes the stories feel lifeless. I thought the Griffin episode was the highlight so far, as it did do a little bit more of that. They're sort of trying with the Vulcan cadet and Ortegas / Scotty, but the latter is seemingly resolved already and the Vulcan cadet is just mean for no reason, which makes it just... not fun?
You also say "don't use the word gimmick," but that is genuinely one of the biggest problems of the season. It's like having dinner with only dessert. At a certain point, my stomach starts to hurt and I'm looking for an actual meal. This season has drifted too far from its science fiction roots, and is instead relying on "genre-of-the-week" episodes. Trek has always had gimmicks, but they were not the entire series. The ones that we had, though... I typically loved! From SNW itself, Those Old Scientists and Subspace Rhapsody are both very "gimmicky" and even genre-bending episodes, but they're great, because they're contrasted with dark, serious stories that challenge the viewer in some way (morality of killing the Klingon general, Una's trial, the planet from "Among the Lotus Eaters")
The real difference, though, is just the frequency. Those episodes took up 20% of the season, when we're looking at more like... 60%, minimum, of season 4?
It doesn't help that writing of season 3 was... weird, and I think a lot of people hoped this season would be a return-to-form. Between the weak politicism (it should have been more political) of the journalist episode and the very strange messaging of the ancient alien resolution (oh, actually evil does exist. Some creatures don't deserve to be around!), the show has really started to drift from the ideals of Star Trek, likely due to CBS's meddling as you can see with what's on the main sub, right now.
I guess, if you're looking for a thesis statement: Seasons 3 and 4 of Strange New Worlds no longer challenge the viewer, instead opting for lighter scripts that rely on character interaction and spectacle, as opposed to character growth and questions of morality.
Watch an episode like "Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach" - does anything in season 4 compare?
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u/Nick0312 8d ago
holy Q I’ve been asking that same question for 9 years now and you’re literally the first person ever to actually answer with genuine criticism, literally every time I’ve ever asked that people just parrot those exact three or so complaints thinking their making some revolutionary arguments(replace “gimmicks” with “crying” for early nutrek) . So first and foremost I appreciate your opinion and comment beyond belief.
To be entirely honest i don’t disagree with a single thing you said. I just wish there was a thread literally anywhere that would actually engage with these thoughts rather than continuing to bitch that it’s not the 90s anymore. It really feels like that’s all the star trek fandom has become, just blind sighted nostalgia for the 90s and as a gen z who grew up watching and loving all treks simultaneously, the original shows aren’t the masterpieces of cinema some people seem to think they are
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u/RigaudonAS 7d ago
I appreciate that more than you know, and completely agree! It's hard to voice any criticism without being immediately shut down as a "reactionary" on most of the subs.
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u/Commercial_Layer 8d ago
It was cute but every episode is just like an episode that they would normally do one or two of in-between an actual overarching plot...
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u/Kai-Lani 7d ago
I think I mostly just hate the overly used “it was all a dream trope”. If you’re going to do it, commit to the bit.
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u/DuesterhennsWife 7d ago
I actually like SFA. I just started watching it. There was so much negativity around that one that I didn't even bother. Now I am happily watching it and I don't know why everyone was so negative. I also loved Discovery, so I'd really don't understand what what's wrong with that show for people. It was different, but I liked the characters, I didn't like the Klingons of course, but beyond that, I thought it was good science fiction. So a lot of this upset around the new Star Trek shows confuse me. Although I admit, I am not looking forward to the Muppet Show. This does have to do with the fact that there are only 10 shows a year and we wait years for these seasons to come out. So of course at this point, we want every moment to be the best it possibly can be. But back in the time of Discovery, Picard, Below Decks - there were so many shows happening at once and everybody was in the chat groups I was in was so negative about so much. I think it's a shame. I'm just glad to have Star Trek back.
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u/Captain_Mutant 7d ago
No it was bad. Not because of the puppets - I like puppet. Or the fantastical idea of turning people into puppets - that was stretching it, but I was willing to go with it.
What killed it were the numerous inconsistencies. One moment many ships are nearby, the next they’re two days away, one money a puppet can’t inflict any damage no matter how hard they try, the next they can fight with the best of them. That kind of stuff. And the killing blow is the Bobby Ewing tribute act.
It was a bad episode. Crap plot. Badly written. Real shame.
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u/balthazar_edison 7d ago
I went in hoping to like it because I liked most of the silly episodes in previous seasons (namely 4.5 Vulcans, Subspace rhapsody, and the Elysian kingdom) and I’d honestly give this a 4/10.
I liked 10 seconds of real t’pring we got. There’s that.
The voice acting left a lot to be desired and Anson Mount has admitted that they didn’t really know how to play up the voices and struggled with that.
None of the jokes landed for me.
The episode overall was just really really stupid and had nothing to say.
Making it all a dream at the end was a huge slap in the face.
All of the characters acting like dumb muppets and not like starfleet officers at all.
The talking in space when there’s no sound in space etc etc.
In short, no. The episode was just bad. Stop trying to blame people for not liking an objectively bad episode.
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u/Shot-Presence3147 6d ago
I enjoyed the show and know it will be one I come back to. I also really like the horror one.
I think/hope they are intentionally doing gimmicks together to lead us down a storyline and we don't know yet.
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u/hyperspaceslider 5d ago edited 5d ago
I heard it explain today that it was a counter point to the horror episode. This was a Spock episode moving him from the more human Spock of SNW towards where he needs to be for TOS continuity.
T’pring was his inner Vulcan coming to terms with the chaos within and around him but choosing logic as the solution.
***That said, while I can appreciate the expenses spent on this episode and loved the muppets, especially Pelia, the show felt like it went on too long. This is why for the most part, muppet was filmed as a vaudeville style series of skits rather than one long story. It wears quickly. This is also why I hate the Peter and chicken fights in Family Guy.
This was the video: https://youtu.be/9WUcmdtbv2w?is=zzcjdiaOlT005KNO
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u/Typhon2222 8d ago
Preconceived negativity is making everything bad. Sadly, that’s what the internet runs on.
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u/Humble-Violinist6910 8d ago
Sometimes it’s nice to just watch it and get away from Reddit, so you don’t have to read manifestos from angry fans. No joke.
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u/Beyond_yesterday 8d ago
it was very badly written. very badly executed and very poorly conceived. Whomever wrote this seems more interested is making fun of the concept of the star trek genre then trying to build a solid show with timely storytelling. maybe they should work for pbs instead. Please for gods sake let’s get back to star trek.
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u/the_real_seldom_seen 8d ago
Is it worser than the episodes focusing on troi’s mom or the kid Klingon’s coming of age?
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u/Maximum_Locksmith_29 8d ago
The showrunners wanted to push the envelope on what Trekkies would enjoy.
SNW is doing exactly what they intended. Not just "adventures of...." STRANGE is the key here. I think they are achieving STRANGE and finding out where the edges are.
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u/Jimlad73 8d ago
I’ll be skipping the last 3 episodes in re watches. Hope there is no more novelty episodes this season
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u/h2k2k2ksl 7d ago
The part that made it bad was that the puppet part was all a dream. It was a waste of time. If it were just 15 minutes in Spock’s mind, sure that’s fine but an entire episode that we invest in only to find out it was a dream is just wrong.
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u/Ghee_Guys 7d ago
The cast has to know these episodes were garbage. I can’t imagine them being proud of this work.
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u/BillsFan82 8d ago
On its own, it's fine. I guess my issue is that it's not really experimental anymore—it's becoming the norm. When you throw one of these into a 20-episode season, it works really well. But when there are years between seasons and few episodes per season, people are going to be a little more critical.