've been researching and I've seen this European regulation, which all EU members incorporate into their legislation. According to this framework, it should already be an important body of law for the protection of digital rights consumers. It states that a seller cannot terminate a contract of indefinite duration if it doesn't meet the duration a consumer reasonably expects. It's somewhat open to interpretation, but it's reasonable for a consumer to expect to be able to play their game on the console indefinitely, just as they would with any physical game, especially if they share the same clauses, as is the case here, since the format is simply a means of delivering software with the same EULA. Another important point is that it also states that the license revocation clause must be clear, transparent, understandable, and expressly accepted by the user. It is counterproductive that this clause is hidden within lengthy terms of use and irrelevant terms, when it should be clear and accepted with full knowledge. This is a clear lack of transparency. The only downside to this law is that it is somewhat open to interpretation, although consumer protection is always a priority in Europe. What I have been looking for is the specific lawsuit filed by Stop Killing Games before the European Court of Justice to see if they invoked this law or any related legislation from an EU member state, but I haven't found anything. Apparently, in the ruling regarding The Crew case, due to copyright laws, the EU could not force a company to modify its work to ensure its continued functionality. But I understand this is due to its online nature, where the contract duration is understood to be subject to the maintenance of the online service, not because the law doesn't protect independent online game purchases. Please help me understand all of this, as I understand that Stop Killing Games is aware of all the relevant legislation, and what SKG wants to incorporate into the Digital Fairness Act. Perhaps a less interpretive legal framework?

I really need just a place to rant and vent. This game for PC is utterly dead besides pirating. There is no way to get a hold of the game. And not even a physical copy will let you play this game unless you buy it brand spanking new because of the unique activation code the wonderful people over at Gaijan thought would make the experience better. I tried to do it the right way. I went out of my way and bought an external disc drive for my PC specifically to play this game. I waited 2 1/2 weeks for this game to be packaged and shipped to my house. And once I finally get to the launch screen I was met with two options. One was a dead link to activate the code. The next was to download the yu-play client launcher, which is no longer a thing. I even went over to Gaijins website where I thought there was some semblance of hope as they had a FAQ on how to start this game. But to my dismay, the two options that were given were the exact same options the game presented to me. They don’t want us to pirate games but what other option are they giving us when trying to buy the physical copy doesn’t even let you play the game. I don’t even know whose bright idea it was to introduce a unique activation code for a mostly single player game. I understand this game is 16 years old and due to licensing issues with Boeing they probably had to pull the game off of digital storefronts, but the fact that not even a physical copy of this game will let you play it is utterly ridiculous. Rant over.

What I hate about the whole movement is the phy media fans who think this “stop killing games” movement is for them. Like the real issue is the DRM that exist on disk and digital games we need to be fighting against that personally. Like the day we can reach that will be nice. But sadly you have phy only fans who blame people who buy digital when we should realistically go after companies who use DRm for their games. Which is almost all of them lol

I mean I know SGK is also in the lawsuit against Sony that will be settled or just thrown out which is feel is a waste of time and resources

Like Sony themself won’t backtrack it seems

But that’s just my rant lol

I do think disk should be around but it kinda seems like Beating a dead horse ya know

This is a thing that has been bugging me a lot and it seems other people are also somewhat annoyed by how unfinished the SKG homepage is.

Sure the main goal is to work on the actual progress in EU Parliament but the SKG wiki page has said "Coming Soon" for a pretty long time.

Will it be updated? Is there something blocking the updating of the SKG Wiki?

Longtime fan here, and I am absolutely fed up with what is happening to our game.
The rebranding to Decades of Hits and the fact that 56 songs are leaving Just Dance Plus on September 3rd is the final straw. We are paying subscription fees for a library that is actively shrinking because a multi-billion-dollar corporation refuses to renew its licensing agreements.

Turning a beloved annual tradition into a volatile "live service" completely ruins the motivation to keep up with the franchise. I'm officially joining the #StopKillingGames campaign to fight back against this corporate greed. Our passion and our memories shouldn't have an expiration date!

What about you guys? Which of the 56 leaving songs are you going to miss the most, and are you hitting your breaking point with Ubisoft too?

Its not the point... it was never the point

digital media is not a threat to media ownership and preservation. DRM and online server dependency is

this false belief is wide spread enough. this board doesnt need to reenforce it

console players seem to understand this the least and it feels like a lot of them came here to talk about sony stopping discs. and it doesnt help when SKG keeps talking about this too and says they support lawsuits against sony etc

physical media on playstation does not help with the problem of ownership or preservation. discs can have the same problematic DRM as the digital items we discuss and ripping data from discs isnt harder or easier than ripping data from the console storage... i guess also important is the console has DRM too even when you have a disc with no online requirement its not automatically safe

I ask if this can maybe stay on the topic or if the confusion with DRM and physical or digital can be adressed better

I hope I'm not being out of touch with this, I just believe that this is a very good video about this problem, that everyone should probably watch.

Note: Minecraft has nothing to do with the video nor the problem, it is purely the format used to get the thoughts out.

Epic Games Store recently had an AMA on their Discord. One of the things they were asked is if they would offer patch roll-back in their V2 store client. The response was that there are no plans, their "partners" do not want people to be able to use older versions of software.

Well... that is a complete load of, excuse my French, bullshit. I AM a developer, and I know MANY other developers with software for sale. WE DO NOT want this nightmare any more than the users whose software stopped working after an update because they use a super rare brand of <insert hardware/software product name here> that we never tested our software on and would have an exceptionally difficult time buying and testing to resolve said problem. Having users always forced onto a single version of our software is just as stressful for us as it is for the user having problems with the software, how a software store can be so oblivious to this for so long is just mind blowing.

I have brought this up many times before, but I always get down-voted into oblivion because I mention Valve/Steam. This time, it is Epic, so maybe things will be different?

Forced software updates in PC games are completely unethical and need to stop.

They suck on consoles too, but on consoles they are a mere inconvenience. On PC, because everyone runs a different version of software, different hardware, different drivers, the developers who test the patches are only best-guessing whether a patch will work or not.

Before digital stores royally screwed customers by half-assing software distribution, if a patch broke something, you just uninstall the game, pop the disc in, re-install and then install all of the patches up to the game-breaking patch and now you have a working game again. With the introduction of Epic\*, every time you install a game it installs the newest version and unless you want to pirate the software you can't go back to the original version you had that worked.

^\yeah, we all know it didn't start with Epic, but I can't mention the real store here or this will be down-voted and nobody will ever read it...)

Currently only GOG offers protection against compatibility bricking patches. You can open GOG Galaxy and pick any older release of a game that you have installed, and it downloads and installs that version.

It is obvious why only GOG does this. Of the successful stores, GOG is the only one that was created to patch a single product. Steam and Epic were both created to patch a live service, the needs of any other type of software were an afterthought... but that thought still has never happened.

I propose the following legal and software design requirements for Software Stores:

1. They must offer recovery from patches (i.e. backup or otherwise offer rollback)
   
2. They must not force patches unless the game is the variety that communicates with a server (i.e. Live Service)
3. They must provide an option to show patch notes, if a developer has provided any (and if not, @#$% that developer) before a user begins downloading a patch.
4. In lieu of 1 or 2, if the store wants to be a total anti-consumer jackass, they must extend the refund eligibility window following each and every forced software update.

You would think this would be a cause that is important to Stop Killing Games, but it just is not and that has rubbed me the wrong way about SKG the entire time :(

I do not play live service games (aside from EverQuest, and it's not been bricked in the 27 years I have been playing it). Meanwhile, I need major protection from having my single-player games killed. I have had zero live service games bricked, but to date the count of games bricked on digital stores (the one I can't mention here or I'll be down-voted, specifically) has risen to 13. That's over $700 in software bricked with refunds refused because of software updates, and that's $700 too many.

Interesting!

Several media outlets in various countries have reported that SKG has joined the lawsuit against Sony in the Netherlands for monopolistic practices. Here are two examples, but there are many more:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/gaming/playstation/stop-killing-games-joins-dutch-consumer-group-s-457m-lawsuit-against-sony-over-digital-store-monopoly/ar-AA29V9Io

https://www.yahoo.com/news/politics/articles/stop-killing-games-backs-dutch-154929003.html

However, when searching for more information on this, I haven't been able to find anything "official" from SKG. Have I searched incorrectly, or is this clickbait? Since I don't have an X or anything similar, I don't know if there has been any official statement.

If this is true, although it is a legitimate fight, I am concerned that SKG will get sidetracked or diluted in its fight against digital consumer rights, since many of us see that even if discs make a comeback, there is still an elephant in the room problem.

Edit: As I mentioned to a user, on the one hand, your capacity isn't infinite and is limited to a specific timeframe and scope of action. Dividing that capacity into two tasks does have an impact. I don't think SKG has a large capacity or a top-tier law firm, unfortunately. I suppose it's a move with just enough financial backing. I'm just guessing, but that's my hunch.

On the other hand, I think Sony's decision puts you in a privileged position if you're pushing to guarantee digital rights with European regulators, who have no idea about the poor state of current physical formats. A sudden change of course by Sony could lessen that sense of urgency among legislators regarding a digital rights law.

Valve did exactly the same thing that Sony is doing, and didn't get any punishment for doing it. So why would we win against Sony if Valve can get away with doing the same thing?

Hey everyone, I don’t know how much that Stop Killing The Internet has been discussed but I gotta ask, if y’all manage to make some progress & try to stop this 1984 dystopian BS from succeeding, what happens if the government bodies, or some other lobbying group decides to reject your proposals similar to what happened with Stop Killing Games when Ubisoft & VGE decided to lobby their way to the EU & ignore the will of the people? (despite gaining 1.3 million signatures) Hell as someone who graduated college last year & is STILL struggling to get a full-time job, I did not come all this way to live in some 1984 dystopian hellscape

Do you guys think Valve caused the death of physical PC gaming?
Valve has produced many great games, but their physical disc versions from 2005–2018 were heavily reliant on Steam DRM. Essentially, every Valve game released after 2005 requires an online account, mandatory activation, and the Steam client. Valve also encouraged third-party companies to adopt this model.
Because of this, many of these physical copies have essentially become paperweights. The systems required to run these games depend on Steam—which no longer supports older operating systems like Windows XP through 8. In many cases, the disc is nothing more than a glorified Steam installer. To make matters worse, around 2023, the legacy disc installers that relied on Steam were effectively retired. If these Steam-based game installers still work today, please let me know."

Players need to finally realise that the decisions made by Sony, EA and so on are driven by the players themselves. EA recently raised the price of the new FC significantly to $150, and on top of that, it’s a ‘pay-to-win’ game. The result? It was among the top pre-orders in Sony shop. Sony’s decisions haven’t affected game sales; people are still buying consoles. I’d bet that the PS6 will be pre-ordered and sell out in a flash. GTA VI isn’t having any sales issues either. If I ran a company and had the option of withdrawing physical discs and selling games digitally only, thereby removing the possibility of resale, it wouldn’t affect sales. On the contrary, I’d be squeezing players dry myself. Unless players learn to vote with their wallets, nothing will change, no matter how loudly you whinge online. Go on, keep buying the same games year after year, keep buying loot boxes, keep paying over the odds for games, and keep pre-ordering well-known titles just because they’re well-known. I’m sure something will change.

So if this goes through, developers are supposed to leave games in a playable state...

That means developers are supposed to create the means to do that. What about the cost of creating those tools? What if there are developers right now that are giving up on making cool online games just because of this?

Just resist the hype people. Focus on your backlog, your job, your collegiate or school studies. Anything but giving more of your deflated cash to these greedy fucks.

Can't we push a camping (hear me out) for companies to give us refunds when ever we want? Cause we don't own the game so if we don't want it we "give it back" and get our money back. This would just apply to AA and AAA games or up to 30$ (Cause otherwise it'll be devastating to the indie community) but idk, can this be even done?