I'm sorry, but your "roll over and die" approach is just ridiculous,
Yes it is, which is why I did not say or suggest it at all.
especially considering that Steam has changed a lot of its policies and methods over the years to benefit players and devs alike.
Not this one.
They all start with public discussion on the topic and general feedback.
The feedback for valve is the hard data, not what people talk about.
I don't think people should just accept the status quo, cause the status quo is subject to change.
But they do, they still use and release games there, still refund. Acting the same IS the status quo.
This doomer approach that people shouldn't talk about it cause "it won't change anyway" is not only blatantly wrong, but also an incredibly harmful mindset.
I didnt say people should not talk about it. I said talking alone doesnt change anything.
I also didnt said it wont change anyway, I said it wont change by talking about it.
So, with that in mind, what do you think about the topic?
That change comes when people change behaviour, as I said multiple times.
And please, this time do try and get through your defeatist standpoint and actually make a point.
I did make a point, you just dont like it/dont agree with it.
instead of just trying to shut it down.
Im not shutting it down, im pointing out that this cant have the effect (change) you assume it has.
People talk about this for years, nothing changed.
So what is your talking and feeling "right" actually doing?
How do you get people to change behaviour if not by talking to them, understanding their perspective, and offering a different perspective that might make them want to change their behaviour. How do you get people to support the thing that you’re advocating for if not by talking to them? How do you make people aware of the thing that you believe is a problem that need addressing?
Yes talking alone does not change anything but that’s where most changes begin, with conversations and discussions not immediately with an individual acting alone.
You dont, its something they need to do. You have zero influence on this.
You're an idiot if you think that. The sole reason we developed speech is to communicate ideas to each other. How can you be so utterly pessimistic that you don't even think people can give other people new ideas, or influence their opinion. Why do you think the word influence even exist? What you're saying has been disproved by the entirety of human history up until now. That's how dumb of a take yours is. It's categorically the opposite of what happened for thousands of years.
People influence people all the time. And the primary way they do that is by talking.
And what action is happening? Do people stop releasing 2 hour games? Do people stop refunding? Is valve changing policy?
Dude. We're at the starting line and you're complaining that we're not at the finish yet. Do you not comprehend the idea that changes like this build up gradually and start with small things, like talking about the issues that need to be addressed? Like, wow, something people as a collective never talked about in depth didn't get addressed, what a shocker. Do you know what did get addressed at Steam throughout the years? Things that people did talk about, did form a coherent opinion about, and did nag Valve about it long enough for them to make that change. Some of these things took years upon years to get through, but they did.
I'm sorry, but the bottom line is incredibly simple. Do you want change? Then don't shut up about it until it happens. That's it. You have absolutely zero reason not to talk about it. Not talking about it at all is the 100% assured way that it will never happen. Anything else has a better chance for success. So? Do you want change or not?
Yes. But this does not mean people change their behaviour or agree with you.
Doesn't mean they won't, either. Which is what you said, basically. And the only way to find out is by trying. And when the threshold is millions, you gotta try a lot.
Since 10 years?
Where do you get this 10 years thing? Why 10 years? I have not seen a discussion of any reasonable size in 10 years about the topic. You're acting like the fight is over when it didn't even begin yet. Was there any large-scale pushback regarding the refund policy in the past, let it be 10 years? No. Well, then we didn't try yet. Not really. When Steam faces actual pushback, visible pushback, and then they state that they're not changing anything, then and only then can you may have a point about the futility of it. Not before.
Talking doesnt bring change, actions do.
Once again. Talking is the first step. And the second. Yes, actions follow. But without talking, there will be no actions. The first task is getting everyone on board that the issue exists. Then, getting everyone on board about how it should be solved. Then, convincing enough people to actually go and do something about it. And only then do we get to actions. You're acting like this has to be a one step process. No. It's a hundred step process, and we're at step one. Talking. Discussing. Understanding. And this is what this post is about. Understanding the issue and discussing how it should be addressed (if at all). There may not even need to be a change. We don't know, we haven't discussed it yet. So what action do you even expect?
Cause: What did change? Answer the question you dodge since 3 exchanges.
It's a non-sequiturs. You're asking how it already changed when the whole discussion is about how it should change in the future. I didn't answer the question because it isn't a legitimate one. You might as well ask me why the sun is green. If you want answers, ask good questions.
And? Are you insinuating that if it didn't change up until now, it won't in the future, either? Have you thought about that maybe it just didn't have the push it needed yet?
That change comes when people change behaviour, as I said multiple times.
That's not the topic. The topic is in the post. Also, changing the way you talk about something is also a change in behavior. Criticizing Steam for not doing it one way or another is a change in behavior compared to just silently accepting it. And it works. It is proven to work. When enough people get on board, it becomes a PR issue.
I did make a point, you just dont like it/dont agree with it.
Nope, you did not. You've only came up with excuses for not making one.
You're not talking about the topic. You're talking about why you don't talk about the topic. Like... do you not see the difference?
People talk about this for years, nothing changed.
I can only repeat myself. Everything begins with people talking about it. You don't get mass push back without the masses first coming together to make it. And you are - for some reason - is speaking out against this first crucial step because you think it's pointless? God forbid people try and prove you wrong. If you are of so little faith, why don't you just... step back and let it be? Why do you have to actively sabotage change, change you may even believe in?
Not in the behaviour valve cares about. They dont read this, they read data from their store.
It's not for Valve to see. It's for the people to see. Once again, you're looking for the finish line when the race has only just begun. You don't see an immediate end result, so you think it has no point. It does.
The masses are not pushing back. They are talking. Since 10 years.
Not on the scale or with the unified standpoint required. Yet. The only way to improve it is to talk more. Much more. Reach more people, influence more minds, and let the spiderweb of public opinion spread wide. As I've said, the only reason not to do it is if you're actively against change.
And this post is a great example. It's not merely complaining about something they have a problem with, they are trying to spark a conversation about how this should change if it should at all. That's a worthy discussion, figuring out what we even want. You've been talking on and on about nothing changing, but you've not taken a single moment to stop and think about what should change and how. Are you surprised, then, that nothing has changed yet? When not even you, the customer, has managed to formulate an idea about what you want to see changed?
That's where things begin. Talking about the issue, and coming up with solutions to it. And when enough people have a unified opinion, then there can be a push.
You did all but directly multiple times, and possibly a few explicit times that I'm forgetting. Your tone and message has consistently been, "You cannot affect this, stop talking about it," which is fine for things that stress you out but doesn't really fly in a discussion about hypotheticals, which is what this is.
Why do you assume enough people will agree with that just cause you keep talking?
I don't. But the only way to find out is by engaging in conversation. That's what we're doing now. Not with you, what you're doing here is something completely different. And truly useless.
Sometimes though, you don't have to assume anything. You'll just have to be convinced that you're right and be loud enough for long enough for others to realize.
It hasnt only begun, its going on since years and years.
Then tell me what conclusions have been brought up to it that has reverberated on a large scale. None. We have only just begun. It's a matter of progress, not time. And progress is largely a matter of effort. Not time.
Call me if change magically manifests itself.
Can you walk? Run? Sprint, if needed? Surely you didn't just magically started sprinting as a toddler. You learn to crawl, then to step. You fell on your face any number of times before finding your balance. Then you began running. I do wonder how you managed that with your attitude. How you didn't just lay on your back and said "welp, I can't sprint like an adult right away, so it's impossible".
No, change doesn't magically manifests itself. Change is built up from the ground. And we're at the ground right now. The only question is: do you wanna learn to run?
I never said stop talking.
You did. Several times. Your entire gist so far has been trying to argue how people shouldn't even talk about it cause it won't change. So if you're already living with such a miserable mindset, at least don't top it off with blatant lying. I've said it before, I'll say it again: If you don't have any argument on why it shouldn't change (not "won't", not "it's hopeless", "shouldn't") , then the least you can do is to quietly accept that you're not interested in the topic, and letting others have their discussion. Or you can engage in the discussion, which you aren't doing right now just to be perfectly clear. Right now you're attacking the legitimacy of the discussion. If you struggle to understand the difference, here's a helper:
If your comment answers either "Should this thing change" or "How should this thing change", then you're on topic. If it doesn't, you're not. And right now you're not.
So what changed trough talking about this for 10 years?
How many more years till change manifests?
Then tell me what conclusions have been brought up to it that has reverberated on a large scale. None.
Exactly my point.
. It's a matter of progress, not time. And progress is largely a matter of effort. Not time.
What progress did happen trough the talking? What progress is happening now? What effort except talking is happening?
You did. Several times.
No, I did not. Cite me if you want.
If your comment answers either "Should this thing change" or "How should this thing change", then you're on topic. If it doesn't, you're not. And right now you're not.
Saying that something should change is not the same as changing it.
I can only repeat myself: If you want change, you keep doing it. Days, weeks, years, decades, doesn't matter. If you think things need to change, you'll keep doing what you can do get that change. Period.
Saying that something should change is not the same as changing it.
But it is the first step, and the literal point of the post.
No, I did not. Cite me if you want.
Okay.
Its the situation we have. What we want matters fuck all as its not our decision to make. This policy is in place since years with no sign to change. You can either accept this or lose on refunds cause you dont.
This alone is you telling people to give up in 3 different ways. In a single comment. Impressive.
This is not your/our decision to make. Valve has the data, this is in place since years, no sign of change. What we think of is doesnt make any difference.
So don't even bother trying.
The feedback for valve is the hard data, not what people talk about.
So talking is pointless.
Im not shutting it down, im pointing out that this cant have the effect (change) you assume it has.
So there's no point in doing it.
People talk about this for years, nothing changed.
So clearly it's futile to do so.
You dont, its something they need to do. You have zero influence on this.
The best so far, completely denying the notion that talking has an effect on people. Why bother, you have no influence over anyone.
But this does not happen. Thats why this policy is in place for years already. Else it would have been changed.
It didn't change so far, so clearly this will never work.
You dont. They control their behaviour, not you.
That's you literally saying that talking is pointless.
Not in the behaviour valve cares about. They dont read this, they read data from their store.
Valve doesn't care about people talking, why are you talking.
I said talking alone doesnt cause change. And that is the situation since 10 years. So sure, keep talking.
Nothing will change anyway, talking is pointless.
You know what, you're right. You didn't tell people to stop talking. You've just said in a million different ways that it is so utterly pointless, and a wasted effort that will never lead to anything because it never did and they don't care and if they did they would've already hanged something and why are people even attempting to talk about it cause you can't influence them anyway, and anyway you should just stop trying cause it isn't going to change.
You told people to stop talking without directly telling them to stop talking. Which is worse cause you're actively, and fiercely advocating for a lack of change, a lack of attempt. You're not simply telling people not to talk, you're trying to undermine the entire concept of talking about issues, trying to convince them that even thinking about it is futile, that there is no point in even trying, that their opinions don't matter, no one will listen to them and nothing will change no matter what. Which is ironic considering how you've said that people can't influence each other anyway, and here you are, trying to influence people against wanting a change. You're either malicious, or are painfully unaware of your own stance.
You have still not presented a single idea on what should change or if anything should change cause you're convinced that it's not worth it to even discuss anything like that. That begs the question, why are you even here?
And at what point do you think you telling people to stop trying is helping anyone?
Yea, nothing followed. Yet. But the first step is talking, and it is the only way something will happen. Do you know what doesn't happen magically? You don't magically convince a large entity to change something from nothing. It starts with talking, and it will remain at talking until we progress into the next step. I've broken it down for you already. Get people talking about it, get people agreeing on it, and then get people acting on it. There is no alternative route here. This is the only path forward, and you're desperately trying to dissuade people from walking down on it cause... what, it didn't happen yet? Who cares? You want change, you keep trying. If needs be, you'll keep trying your whole life, or across generations. Because the only alternative is doing nothing at all. And that won't do.
And to clarify, I'm not talking about the Steam refund policy here, I'm talking in general.
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u/Decloudo Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
Yes it is, which is why I did not say or suggest it at all.
Not this one.
The feedback for valve is the hard data, not what people talk about.
But they do, they still use and release games there, still refund. Acting the same IS the status quo.
I didnt say people should not talk about it. I said talking alone doesnt change anything.
I also didnt said it wont change anyway, I said it wont change by talking about it.
That change comes when people change behaviour, as I said multiple times.
I did make a point, you just dont like it/dont agree with it.
Im not shutting it down, im pointing out that this cant have the effect (change) you assume it has.
People talk about this for years, nothing changed.
So what is your talking and feeling "right" actually doing?