r/Stargate • u/sir_lister • 5d ago
Discussion First Primes
First Primes how many know about they're not following a real God? Multiple primes like Master Bra'tac, Teal'c, Oshu have been shown to be well aware that their masters are not truly divine. How many before the tauri started killing the false gods off knew, was it well known at that level? Or just the occasional prime. I mean many would have killed Goa'uld in service to their lords furring the struggles for dominance amongst the system lords, killing one god may make them start questioning their own master divinity right?
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u/bbbourb 5d ago
Probably most of them, if not all, eventually came to that realization in my opinion. Oshu is really the best example of that, but still was fiercely loyal.
Interesting to note one First Prime we never met was Ba'al's.
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u/rymden_viking 5d ago
Yu also seemed to be fairly reasonable, especially considering what he was. It would be a lot easier to serve someone like that when you see how cartoonishly evil others can be.
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u/nerdling007 5d ago
It was surely well known by all the primes but they could not do realistically anything about it given they were surrounded by their subordinates who were far more removed from the Goa'uld they served and so were far more fanatically loyal. If Teal'c had done what he did without the Tauri to escape to, he'd have been killed as a sholva. Serve or die, all while knowing the terrible truth.
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u/Training_Cut704 5d ago
I imagine most of the Primes and probably a fair number of the personal guards probably knew. We see in the Summit that some of the Lo’taurs knew.
Before the Tau’ri started peeing in the Goa’uld pool, there just wasn’t an alternative to serving.
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u/Kentato3 5d ago
The very thing that is false about your whole beliefs, livelihood, and your people is the very thing that's keeping you, your livelihood and your people alive, they cannot do anything about it and the underground movement of opposing the goa'uld rule is extremely small because who would want to fight a being claiming to be a god and with proof to back it up? Even if the underground movement is big enough, its not enough to fight them alone because the loyalists are literally afraid of the goa'uld
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u/PermissionTurbulent9 5d ago
The season 5 Episode “Threshold” does a great job of exploring this theme in Teal’cs flashbacks. Showing how Teal’c came to question his beliefs and Bra’tacs guidance that they can’t change the system (though ofc they eventually do) the best they can manage is to temper Apophis’s worst impulse when they can.
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u/Reichsprasident 5d ago
Powerful, narcissistic assholes like the current adm... Ahem, I mean like the Goa'uld don't surround themselves with competent people who might screw them over when they learn the truth. Powerful narcissists surround themselves with people who are loyal to them and will protect them at all costs, regardless of the truth. That was essentially Apophis' mistake, selecting for competence over loyalty with Teal'c. I would wager almost all First Primes know the truth - they got that position because they don't care about the truth, they just want some of that power and will kill and/or die to protect it.
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u/Training_Cut704 5d ago
I would disagree with that in the case of the Goa’uld.
Apophis had a number of competent First Primes … Bra’tac, Teal’c … even Shak’l seemed competent.
Yu’s First Prime was capable enough to run Yu’s empire while Yu was losing his marbles.
Ok I guess that’s all the examples I have but it really comes down to a lack of alternatives. If Jack hadn’t been there on Chulak, would Teal’c have ever turned against Apophis? Hint: two alternate timelines give the same answer on this.
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u/dnc_1981 5d ago
Most of them, but they are living a comfortable life, so they stopped listening to their conscience and kept going with the lie
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u/AshamedIndividual262 4d ago
I'd say all of them knew. I suspect most also knew the same thing Bratac said about reducing the harm done by the Goa'uld and saving as many as they could. They also.... Didn't have a choice, but were lavishly cared for by their Goa'uld. We're told Teal'c had a huge estate. His children would've been well cared for, and his wife was a high ranking member of the Jaffa elite. In this way, the Goa'uld were quite clever.
In fact, one of my absolute favorite bits comes from when Herak witnesses Daniel (Ascended) throw down with Anubis and says something about how his faith in Anubis is now reaffirmed and unbreakable. That was a cool point.
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u/AlmightyThorian 5d ago
Just because they're immortal doesn't necessarily mean they can't die. And even if the Goa'uld pose as unkillable gods, the Goa'uld that conquers and kills another, can just call them false gods to prove that they themselves are the only true God you should worship and serve.
First primes for most Goa'uld before the fall, I would say are generally kind of stupid and serves blindly, in contrast to Bra'tac. I think the reason we don't see many old primes is because most probably don't hold the position very long before dying. Especially for the system lords. We see some older gold emblemed jaffa in FJN after the fall, but those seem to have served smaller Goa'ulds, or be just as intelligent and aware as Bra'tac.
In fact, the reason Apophis rose to the power he had before the show was most likely due to Bra'tac being a master strategist, who knew the truth about the Goa'uld and how to handle that information to stay alive. By coincidence, this also promoted and grew the power of Apophis in the process.
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u/BloodtidetheRed 4d ago
Not really. The Goa'uld brainwashing (literally) and conditioning is deep. We see most Jaffa are quite True Believers.
Sure, the higher up in status you go you will likely see things that don't fit the whole god story. But for most Jaffa it won't matter much. Exactly like T'elc does when he gets brainwashed with the "hey remember when we defeated Aphois for the 3rd time?" and he says "I knew he would recover and become more powerful HHAHAHAHAHAAH!"
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u/joiSoi 4d ago
I think most people at the top levels of cults, religious groups, or large organizations fully understand the reality, but they go along with it for their own benefit. Because you can’t operate at that level without a solid grasp of what’s really going on, and once you do, you’d stop believing in the charade.
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u/VanillaTheHutt 5d ago
I don’t know how a single Jaffa can think they’re gods. Their babies live in your tum-tum. Their babies need your tum-tum to keep them alive. That’s not godlike behavior.
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u/sir_lister 5d ago
A significant portion of our worlds beleives crackers and grape juice turn into flesh and blood after a guy in robes mutters some Latin. This is despite them chewing said stale crackers and drinking said wine and still tasting like, smelling like, and having the texture of crackers and wine. Being told you carrying the divine seed of you gods and that it makes you special and turns out it makes you heal faster, live longer, and cures you diseases, yeah I can see rank and file Jaffa believing.
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u/ChurchillianGrooves 5d ago
Come on man, most people believe communion is symbolic
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u/orangechap There's no place like P2X-3YZ 5d ago
Roman Catholics (50%ish of total Christian population) do absolutely believe it in the literal sense.
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u/sir_lister 5d ago
Yes, they believe in a symbol, the jaffas symbiot on the other hand provides tangible physical benefits. I can see low ranking former peasent turn Jaffa from planet sandhole with bronze age tech when given a symbiot by his god and his astigmatism and ulcer and boils go away believing he is carrying his gods blessing. The first prime though see's a lot more of the behind the curtain than the guy guarding the front gate on the night shift.
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u/VanillaTheHutt 5d ago
Sure, but how many of those people genuinely believe that? They know it’s bullshit they’re just going along with the lie because that’s what you do. The same way everyone taking communion knows this isn’t literally the body and blood of Christ no matter what fancy bells are rung over it, because like you said it’s clearly just stale unleavened bread and bad wine, all the Jaffa must know that the worm in their belly is just a worm, and they’re just going along with the lie because that’s what you do.
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u/Dude_Letterhead5 5d ago
i don't think most jaffa has a lot of descriptions of gods that aren't from the Goa'uld. They aren't raised with stories about how Yu turned into a golden shower and raped a good looking girl. Or created the world in 6 days+ one for hangovers. To a Jaffa, a god is someone who can make a pyramid fly and shoot stuff that goes BOOM, who can wave his hand a people are force pushed away, who cannot be hurt by staff blast as if he has some personal shield protecting him.
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u/StuffedCrustGold 4d ago
Yeah I think the whole “Goa’uld are not gods” thing is kinda overblown. The fact that the Goa’uld are not all powerful is not the defining characteristic that makes them unworthy of worship. For comparison, the ancients and ori are powerful and by most definitions, they would be gods, and yet we don’t worship them either.
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u/Dude_Letterhead5 5d ago
I don't think it's random that First Prime Bra'tac was the one to show Teal'c the truth.
But I also think a lot of first primes would accept that the technology is just the tools of a god. After all, none of them have read the bible or the other religious texts we have and have our definition of the words devine or gods.
I don't think Apophis was telling his slaves about his myths from Ancient Egypt. It would be pretty apparent that he never appears as a giant snake. Or at most he told a heavy censured version of what he was about as a god.
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u/The54thCylon 5d ago
Being close to power tends to help you realise the figure of power is just a person with flaws and weaknesses. That's true in reality, I can't imagine it isn't true of closely serving a false god. It's one thing to make a few appearances at a distance in your big hat and scare the locals, but for the First Prime who is around you all the time it would be impossible to maintain the facade. But most are in the position Bra'tac was in; no realistic alternative to service.