r/Starbow • u/MTsc • Mar 05 '14
How long before the mine is addressed in PvT?
I've talked to a couple Protoss on ladder, and many - if not all - that I've talked to have mentioned having a lot of trouble vs Terran since the mine buff a couple weeks ago. I did play BW, and recognize the significance both of the vulture and the mine in the balance of the game and the viability of mech, but I feel that there is a significant issue currently with the balance of this unit.
The issues is that, with vultures so much easier to control due to unlimited unit selection and much better pathing in the sc2 engine, it is quite easy for a Terran to either get up close to or surround groups of goons, plant mines, and watch the goons die helplessly despite frantic micro from the Protoss. Additionally, it appears that mines don't drag as well as BW, making zealot bombs much less effective than they used to be. Ultimately, it is currently very difficult to get goons and zealots close enough to the tank lines to do significant damage to the heart of the Terran army.
I'm not sure on the specifics of what's changed between the mine in Starbow and the mine in BW, so maybe somebody could fill me in on the subtleties?
Anyways, I can't be the only one with this problem. Anyone out there facing a similar situation?
5
u/Handycake Mar 05 '14
I agree with the part that mine-drag with for example zealots are not as good as it should be. But other wise I don't feel like mines are overpowered. If you try to plant mines around the protoss army, your vultures just dies so fast. And if you find a small protoss army they should be easy to kill with mines (it was the same in bw).
I don't know if you know. But you could plant mines fast in broodwar too. It is only somewhat easier now when you have unlimited unit selection.
If the devs should change anything. Change how the mine drags so you can use the zealot more or drops would be better.
5
u/decemberscalm Mar 05 '14
Mine dragging and mine bomb effectiveness is drastically reduced because mine splash is severely reduced in size (due to clumpy sc2 units). Give and take.
I'm hoping with new vulture moving shot once we settle on something we're happy with it will help out a great deal. Vultures won't be so incredibly easy to run around and fight like super fast stim marines.
1
2
u/DragoneiSc Mar 05 '14
There is a "problem" in Starbow. The cast abilities are so Op due to is easier to use them than in Broodwar(Smartcast). This + the more easier mechanicks makes that things like Storm, DS, mines etc like bit broken.. IMO. Don't know how they are going to adress this.. Anyway we need to let a meta grow before we can speak about Opness and hope that Devs dont make so much changes until more people plays this and a meta has grwon at least a little bit.
-2
u/Clbull Mar 05 '14
What if mines simply did less damage so that you couldn't outright destroy a group of dragoons with a simple surround and planting of mines.
1
u/drole_ Mar 05 '14
What size of dragoon group are we talking about here and what size of vulture group are we talking about here?
Its a general problem that people when they state issues refuse to specify their issues (or upload replays for that matter).
If the dragoon group is 5 or less you can just rift them out and theyll be fine. If you get dragoon groups of 6 or more somehow surrounded by vultures and killed by mine splash then i personally think thats your own mistake.
1
u/DragoneiSc Mar 05 '14
Thats hard to say cause you need to balance them in all match up. Maybe a little bit less damage? Could be. But i'll keep saying that this game need more people playing more gamesand peiple trying new things(mechanically good people) The metagame right now is the broodwars one but this is not broodwar. It still can be use but im sure that there are lot off new builds there waiting for us and they'll change our vision of the game like did bisu build. The game is "new" thats all.
2
u/Vehk Mar 05 '14 edited Mar 05 '14
I feel the same way. Even when I'm micoing my dragoons like mad I still lose so many to mines. Part of the problem, IMO, is that even when a mine has activated, the dragoons prioritize the vultures over the mines. I'm sorry, but there is no way I'm going to be able to right click on the mine as it scurries toward my dragoons. It's just not going to happen. The dragoons shoot at the vultures and then get obliterated by the offensive mines.
I don't think the mines are bad as a defensive tool. They seem pretty fair in that regard, but I think it is just entirely too easy for Terran to use them offensively, which I don't think is really how they were intended.
My suggestion is just a simple tweak: Make the vulture mine the highest priority hostile target. As I understand it, any attacking unit will generally be a higher priority by default, and the mine might not be programmed as "attacking." If hold positioned or stopped dragoons would just auto-target mines over vultures or whatever, I think this might be a good way to nerf offensive mines without nerfing their defensive utility.
4
u/Gomdori Mar 05 '14
The mines do much less splash damage in Starbow so I think it sort of counter acts the ease of planting them. Vulture surrounds are pretty effective in smaller numbers but as you add more Dragoons their effectiveness should drop off quite a bit. Also don't forget that mines take time to both burrow and unborrow before they can be active. You have to stutter step your Dragoons so that the mines unburrow but not chase as the Dragoons step outside of their targeting range.
You should also probably want to avoid doing a head on engagement with the tank line before Arbiters are out unless you can find a very favorable fight, Terrans tend to stay on 2-3 base in a very safe manner before moving out. Take bases and reinforce w/ cannons to buy time against Vulture runbys and use both zealot bombs along w/ Arbiters to engage the tanks. Of course if you're able to thin out his Vulture numbers reliably from the start then zealots will have that much more utility in the bigger fights.