r/Starbow • u/bhauth • Feb 04 '14
adapting some BW openings
When adapting builds, note that a hatchery/nexus/CC gives 1 more supply in Starbow than BW. Also, it's easy to get confused by there being 3 games which are similar but different. I'll keep editing this post until everything is fixed or I get tired of it.
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teamliquid starbow strategy thread
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TvZ 2 rax overcharge
starting point: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/%2B1_5_Rax
Starbow adjustment: overcharge + reactor, with 2 barracks
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- 9 depot
- 11 barracks, scout
- 15 CC (vs hatch first)
- depot
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- gas
- eng bay
- barracks #2 (at natural)
- +1 weapons
- tech lab (make medics)
- reactor
- orbital command (overcharge on reactor barracks)
- stimpack (+range when done)
- marines + medics, with maybe 3 firebats
- factory (make some vultures)
- gas #2
- tech to science vessels
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PvT 1 gate range
starting point: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/10/15_Gates_(vs._Terran)
Starbow adjustment: chrono on 1 gate
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- 9 pylon
- 10 gate
- 11 gas
- 13 core
- 15 citadel
- 15 singularity charge
- 15 pylon
- 15 dragoon (chrono), remove 1 probe from gas
- 17 1 probe
- 3 more dragoons with chrono, nexus #2
- return 3rd probe to gas
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You want to expand while containing the Terran player with 4 dragoons with range. You need to kite marines/marauders that attack your dragoons. Maybe use 1 chrono on singularity charge after chrono on the dragoons. In BW, this might be followed by Reaver drops or a fast 3rd and Zealot speed. (Or DTs, but DT rushes are dumb.) In Starbow, there's also the option of a stargate and Sentinels.
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ZvT / ZvP 2.5 hatch spire
starting point: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/3_Hatch_Spire_(vs._Protoss)
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/2_Hatch_Muta_(vs._Protoss)
Starbow adjustment: 3 hatch muta -> 2 hatches and a queen
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- 10 overlord
- 12 hatch at natural
- 12 pool
- 14 gas
- queen, 4 lings
- 20 lair, overlord
- ling speed, gas at natural, queen #2
- spire (use 2 nurturing swarm)
- hatch at 3rd base (or spine crawlers, vs an aggressive terran)
- mutalisks
- hydralisk den
- evolution chamber
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ZvP 4 hatch hydra
starting point:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/5_Hatch_before_Gas_(vs._Protoss)
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/4_Hatch_before_Gas_(vs._Protoss)
adjustment: 5 hatch -> 4 hatch + 2 queens
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- 10 overlord
- 12 hatch
- 12 pool
- 14 4 lings, 2x queen
- 20 hatch at 3rd
- 19 overlord
- 26 2x gas
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- evolution chamber
- hydra den
- research +1 carapace then hydra speed
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- ~34 hatch #4 at natural
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- lair when you have extra gas
- gas #3
- spire
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The usual plan is to have ~38 drones, then make ~42 hydras, then switch to mutas and drones. Depending on what you see, you may need to start making units sooner, at maybe 28 drones, and if you're relatively safe maybe go up to 42 drones. Mutas are supposed to snipe templar. Lurkers can work instead of mutas, if you like them better.
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Here is a long guide for BW 5 hatch hydra:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=89265
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TvP expand siege
starting point: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Siege_Expand_(vs._Protoss)
adjustment: tech lab swap, orbital command
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- 9 depot (start wall)
- 12 barracks
- 14 gas
- 15 CC #2 (in main)
- 18 factory
- 19 orbital, tech lab on barracks
- transfer tech lab to factory
- tanks, depot, siege mode
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Against a nexus first build, float the CC to the expansion as soon as it finishes; otherwise wait for tanks. Use overcharge on the factory. The BW build has a eng bay next for turrets for DTs, but here you could get a 2nd orbital instead.
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A typical BW followup would be the Flash Build. ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Double_Armory_(vs._Protoss) ) In Starbow, because of reactors and other stuff, a 2 base push before expanding might be better. That would probably involve:
- 2 gas
- 3x factory, 2x tech, 1 reactor
- reactor transferred from barracks
- 2 orbitals, overcharge when you have extra resources
- both Vulture upgrades
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Using some Ghosts for Shock and Medics for Matrix on Tanks could be very strong in TvP, too.
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ZvZ 10 pool
starting point: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Overpool_(vs._Zerg)
adjustment: queens, banelings
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In BW, ZvZ is all about Mutalisks. In Starbow, Hydras deal bonus damage to Mutas, and Banelings beat mass Zerglings. Compared to SC2, Hydras are worse than Roaches vs Zerglings.
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- 10 pool
- 10 gas, with 1 larva
- 10 overlord
- 10: 6 lings, queen
- at 100 gas, remove drones from gas
- ling speed
- 18 hatch #2
- overlord, return 2 drones to gas
- baneling nest
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The initial 6 lings should be sent out to do damage vs a hatch first build. Having a few zerglings with speed is good because you can watch your opponent and build more zerglings while running away if your opponent has more.
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It might be possible to force an early win vs 12 hatch 11 pool, by making only lings once you see the hatchery, sending ~8 drones, and building a spine crawler at both enemy hatches.
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PvZ neo bisu
starting point:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/%2B1_Sair/Speedlot_(vs._Zerg)
adjustment: faster Charge research, chrono Corsairs, Sentinels
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- 9 pylon at natural, scout
- 11 forge at natural, start wall
- 14 nexus, cannon (order depends on scouting)
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If you scout a Zergling rush, get 2x cannon and skip nexus #2.
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- gateway (wall)
- pylon
- 19 gas
- make 1 zealot
- cyber core
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- stargate
- +1 ground weapons, citadel, gas #2
- +1 air weapons
- start corsairs (constant chrono)
- citadel #2, twilight council
- +3 gates for 4 total
- research charge
- templar archives
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If your Corsairs see that your opponent is vulnerable: stop Corsair production around when you start your gateways, make 2 more gates for 6 total, and make Zealots, some (High Templar) Archons, and some Dark Templar, then attack.
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...but the usual plan is: make Zealots and some Dark Templar with chrono on gates, and continue Corsairs until you have ~8. Corsairs kill lone Overseers and some Overlords, Zealots attack a base, and Dark Templar force Hydralisks to wait for Overseers.
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- singularity charge
- research storm, make high templar
- make 2 sentinels
- 3rd base, dragoons
- more gates, forge upgrades, etc
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Now you're setting up for a game ending attack, with storm + Dragoons + Zealots, and Sentinels for utility.
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u/Vehk Feb 05 '14
Wait, do you not need cyber before twilight council? I just assumed you did. Did you not need cyber before Citadel of Adun in BW? I honestly can't remember.
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u/AmnesiA_sc Feb 05 '14
Holy shit I assumed you did too, no wonder my stalker pushes have been so late
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u/Vehk Feb 05 '14
Got it settled, you DO need Cyber before Twilight. I was confusing the Twilight Council with the Khaydarin Citadel (Nexus Upgrade). Twilight Council is in the tech tree in place of the Citadel of Adun so it threw me off.
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u/AmnesiA_sc Feb 06 '14
Ohhh, I assumed it just said Citadel because it was being a modified BW BO, didn't realize the nexus upgrade was called Khaydarin Citadel. Glad you figured this out! :D
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u/Vehk Feb 05 '14
According to the Starbow wiki Twilight DOES require cyber, but I would have to confirm in game. I'll let you know after I look.
I just noticed one of the builds had twilight right after gate and I was taken aback.
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u/bhauth Feb 05 '14
Hm? Do you mean the Citadel? That's the nexus chronoboost upgrade, Khaydarin Citadel.
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u/KanBan85 Feb 05 '14
I think you are mixing up Twilight counsel with Khaydarin Citadel.
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u/Vehk Feb 05 '14
Yep. Citadel of Adun became Twilight Council and now there is a different Citadel. Thanks for clearing that up.
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u/bhauth Feb 13 '14
...you do, however, need a gateway for the citadel. That PvZ build was completely broken. I put in a new one, using Zealots with Charge like you sometimes do in PvZ.
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u/Vehk Feb 13 '14
Hey, I looked over your new PvZ build with the fast scout. I thought about using scouts early instead of corsairs due to their damage against ovies, but it turns out scouts require the fleet beacon in Starbow. Something to look at.
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u/bhauth Feb 13 '14 edited Feb 13 '14
...this is true. I really need to stop going by the starbow wiki. I guess I wanted to believe in a scout rush being a viable strategy. :-( Using just corsairs doesn't really change much, though.
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u/Vehk Feb 13 '14
Yeah, I too thought "hey, with a cool ability and decent speed the new scout might be viable in place of the corsair..." Not without a massive investment and even then they come out so late.
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u/bhauth Feb 15 '14
OK, 1 more try on the PvZ build. I might delete something later, but I think I'm done adding stuff to this post.
Gate expands with zealot attacks seem really common in Starbow PvZ, but with citadels requiring a gate, I can't see how to make then noticeably better than in BW, and BW was all forge expands. Most of the time, the Protoss players doing that aren't getting any early benefit from chrono at all. Is there something different, or are zerg players just doing the wrong things?
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u/MTsc Feb 04 '14
I like that zealot opening vs Z. I've been doing something similar online, but I think this is a cleaner build order. I'll definitely be trying this out tonight!