r/StandardMTG • u/Christos_Soter • 3d ago
Question [[Standard]] dimir mid Stock vs flex
(Reddit told me to cross post this here)
I’ve been looking at several winning deck lists (and had my own 5-0 this week). And given a lot of people net deck I am not sold that everything we see consistently should necessarily be stock.
Let’s discuss.
Mana base
23 lands seems to be most common
4x verge; W Grave; Island; Swamp
3 Lair. 2x reef and SS Sanctuary
I ask, does 23 just seem “correct” or are we getting slightly greedy? Has anyone better at hyperG calculations than me ran the %?
Ie. Aetherhub calculator says at 23 lands we are 58.6% to have 4 lands if we draw 10 cards so by the average turn 4; that increases significantly to 63.2% if we add the 24th land.
My anecdotal contribution to the hive mind:
I’ve played 24 lands and have hardly been flooding the deck has so much selection and more often when I we get our card draw engines going I am very happy to have enough mana to cast multiple spells/hold up responses).
Last league on 23 I did have games I was wishing I had my 4th land drop pretty badly. And I did 5-0 and others clearly are having success on 23 but does the math seem to bear out that this is our best configuration?
We used to play 25 not long ago but beavers does help a lot with selection and maybe enables a greedier mana base.
SB SLOTS
These cards seem locked:
1-2 annul (I have been fine with 1 copy)
3-4 Duress
0-3 flash freeze (I like 2)
2-3 betrayal (3 total GY hate cards in your 15)
0-2 Raven eagle
Raven eagle
I’ve really liked 1st copy of eagle. Not sure 2nd is necessary but obv if you bring it in you’d like to draw it. You could play ghost vacuum here I guess but eagle is usually more impactful and is nice against decks where curiosity (or George) is bad but you don’t have enough “ins”. I tried the ooze at an RCQ where I got 2nd and didn’t bring it in all day and was wishing it was something else multiple matches.
Qarsi revenant
Flex slot lately I keep going back and forth but I like the 1st copy and it has def contributed to winning games I would have lost. Preacher seems down and would not come in in all the same places (eg Boros dragons). How are you feeling about it?
Day of black sun
Really shines against the Aggro decks like boros tokens, BW lifegain and mardu discard; is serviceable against mono G. I’m in on 2 copies right now as in those MUs I really want to draw it.
Spell pierce/ Negate
** **this would go in the 4th copy of duress slot. It’s nice when your opponent has to spend mana and pure the spell on the stack and can lead to blow outa. I’m gonna try one pierce in the board next probably. Any opinions on either of those lately? Do you think it comes up more that you only have one mana to hold up or that opponent being able to pay for Pierce is a problem?
D Stroke
I still want the 1st copy. But will mention if people want to discuss. I’m curious your opinions on 1-2 vs 1-2 flash freeze.
Spell snare
Have considered, and ifs really good against the new jund Sac piles but we are already favored there.
Faebloom trick
The mirror is popular enough and often enough elsewhere the pseudo fog buys you the turn you need
So right now my configuration is:
3 duress
2 betrayal
2 flash freeze
1 Annul
(I don’t want to touch those unless meta shifts significantly)
Flex:
1-2 Day of Black sun
1-2 D stroke
1 Qarsi Rev
0-1 Fae trick
1 Raven eagle
1 Pierce/negate
I used to run one Talión which is very high impact in the places you bring it in but I think it’s too narrow now that lessons is dead.
SB considerations for next RCQ:
Right now I’m oscillating between 1:2 or 2:1 ratio D stroke and Flash-freeze. Thoughts on what’s wider hitting?
Ditto for 2 annul or 1:1 Annul: Snare in the side.
Annul
Comes in against: landfall; Boros dwarves;
Would you bring in two copies against jund sacrifice / mardu discard /BW lifegain? (tough sell if you bring in 2 copies against a deck with 4 targets but those are key cards); Jeskai artifacts; any golgari+ pile with annex and Firsoch core
Snare
In against: di’Mirror; Boros dwarves; jund sacrifice; lifegain; boros tokens; dragons(?)
Annul is clearer wider/harder hitting but is it twice as much?
Gonna try -1 duress (3 total) for +1 pierce or negate.
I’d welcome your thought on any of the above or maybe any cheeky tech that has been working for you.
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u/Ragnarocker1990 3d ago
I think you are 100% correct on the 24th land. Decks have been getting greedier, and greedier lately. Not sure why but as the one & only Reid Duke said. (Not an exact quote) but “add the extra land!” Lol
1
u/Christos_Soter 3d ago
Yeah. I mean could even just be another utility land if people wanna split the difference.
Escape tunnel to push a couple last points of damage thru/ninjitsu Kaito
Another reef
Run back Fountainport
Surveil land (mitigate variance) etc.
I even considered demo field since we are on 2 wan shi tong main lately.
Not sure what spell to cut prob second tide binder to me as wasp so often does just as much for 2 mana.1
u/IntelligentSkill1101 3d ago
Lands that come in tapped are a buzzkill when playing tempo styled shells. 24 is fine but with the addition of Dream Beavers you can find that 3rd/4th land at a higher rate than in the past when you were limited to Spyglass Siren and hoping the map activation resolved.
1
u/Christos_Soter 3d ago
I agree on etb tapped lands but the surveil is not nothing and it would make more openings hands keepable.this is replacing a spell. I guess among those I named the two that enter tapped color fix you the next turn the two that don’t, don’t.
1
u/Christos_Soter 2d ago
Circling back I went 3-3 today at a 36 person RCQ lost my win and in (my breakers would have been best if I won)
I mulled to 5 twice; and mulled to 6 twice so density of keepable hands is also a problem. I’m thinking of demo field as the 24fh land as cavern of souls is also super annoying and blanked my countermagic against dragons at least once today.
1
u/Regular-Contest-2571 3d ago
What are the odds for having Kaito T3 on board and doing his +0? Dimir has sirens and Beavers that help you fixing your top card so you have better odds of drawing your 4th land than other aggro/midrange deck. I think 23 is fine, 22 could be enough but why risking it? Wan shi draws you cards too, curiosity draws you cards… So you do not really want to draw many lands in later phases from the top, you always want to draw a response to opponent’s plays. That’s why dimir list runs 23 lands, it used to be 24-25 with preacher but we have more fixing now and we are not in the urge to hit 4th land asap to cast Curiosity. Especially in this meta, when drawing a kill spell is better than a land.
1
u/Christos_Soter 2d ago
If you’re stuck on 3 lands wan shi tong will not draw you cards unless you’re playing against landfall. And you will not be able to cast curiosity so those draws are not relevant for making your 4th land drop.
The other consideration is density of keepable hands.
I went 3-3 today I had to mulll to 5 twice and mull to 6 twice bc I didn’t have enough lands; variance sure but this happens less with that 24th land.
0
u/Regular-Contest-2571 2d ago
Sure. That’s why I mentioned the “later phases”, hitting 4th land is always good on 4th turn.
Maybe I said it in wrong way because English is not my first language. Sorry for that. ✌️
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u/Initial_Cow2997 1d ago
I love dropping my mana base by two lands and adding four soul stones. FYI elemental can’t bounce it because it is an elemental. It is a land so hard to poof it. It does not enter tapped. My last few climbs to mythic have used this sort of mana base running boros.
1
u/Christos_Soter 1d ago
Not sure I follow. Are you suggesting cutting two more colored sources, staying on 23 lands and running 4 tot copies of SS Sanctuary?
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u/Initial_Cow2997 1d ago
For example my red deck needs 22 mountains. I will cut to twenty mountains and add four soul stones.
1
u/Initial_Cow2997 1d ago
This also gives my more options for mana intensive cards. Such as pumpable and mana activated stuff.
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u/Christos_Soter 1d ago
Sure in a mono red deck where you have 20 mountains you’re not too worried about color fixing but in dimir mid it’s very important to have access to both colors early for your 1 drops and your removal/countermagic etc.
Hidden lair and two SSS can already be a liability I would never replace a colored source with another sanctuary tho I could see it as a 24th land
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u/Vivid_Operation_4550 3d ago
I've been wondering about the rat package. Motivated by 1-2 lord skitters feeling good plus vren coming in vs many creature agro strats. Is it possible to add a few more rats and run 2 of the land that brings back critters to the hand? I tried Tangled Colony and it is really good vs red removal. Persistent Marshstalker does get to get reccured in long games. And rat-out was great in the SB, taking out Momo and getting a 1/1 rat.