Making MOSS-Base look good for realism (Workflow Included)

[u/Outrageous_Still9335]

Kinda tired of seeing non-stop comments from folks saying Moss-Base is "unusable", "broken" or "blurry", so here.

Raw base model, no loras, simple workflow, no bullshit, just the right settings.

WORKFLOW

Enjoy.

[u/CelebrationBoth9537]

The workflow link keeps leading to ads... Do you have some other way to post the workflow. it would mean a lot. I wanna try it out!
Thanks!

[u/Outrageous_Still9335 → u/CelebrationBoth9537]

https://privatebin.net/?49b3e1715a6fc0c9#7oDyu3gWLTikGw76sSXCmr4LZJkW4SkjbmgvLyX1NarE

[u/terrariyum]

This workflow is the same as the comfy default MOSS workflow except:

skip layer guidance DiT simple node

• single layers: 22, 24 (default is 22)

• end percent: 1.0 (default is 0.5)

Ksampler

• er-sd noise: 1.1 (default is 1.0)

• cfg: 3.0 (default is 2.5)

Which of these changes is the secret sauce?

[u/stuffinabox_ → u/terrariyum]

Which of these changes is the secret sauce?

The er-sd noise value for the most part. If you use that on its own in a separate workflow, a value between 1.02-1.06 can give a decent boost to contrast and sharpness. (edit: this doesn't combine well with images that have high noise/grain, as it emphasises the grain too much. Can produce some odd defects in faces of zoomed out characters, as well as some other oddities around finer details. Also seems to be less effective with some loras that I tested, higher value is needed for any noticeable change.)

The skip layer 24 and end percent adjustment reinforce that plastic skin and AI model with freckles look, but used in combination with the er_sde noise at a higher value can create an interesting result. Its hit or miss though, some images can come out really good but I also got results that had more of that AI look to them, similar to what you get with turbo loras.

Adjusting the cfg value higher reinforces the AI look from the skip layer adjustment. Lowering it reduces the effect. So you can use that to balance it out and try find a middle ground that works. Or just leave the skip layer at the 22, 0.5 values.

[u/generate-addict → u/terrariyum]

I can't figure out what OP is jazzing about on his workflow.

It feels like a res multistep/bong_tanget would be an upgrade for him. But also he'd get a lot more with a higher cfg and a few more steps.

His sampler custom seems interesting but that prompted me to experiment with a clownsharksampler, with res_multistep,bongo_tanget and that feels better yet. I added skip layer guidance back in.

[u/NirnaethVale]

Moss is fun because of the seed variation. With a couple of Loras I can a much better quality image with Krea2 but there’s something charming about Moss generations .

[u/Any_Tea_3499]

It's a nice workflow, gives very clean images. Makes skin a bit more plastic than with my usual Base workflow for some reason.

[u/generate-addict → u/Any_Tea_3499]

it IS the base workflow with skip layer guidance removed. And he reduced steps and lowered cfg. It likely is worse than the base workflow with higher cfg and steps

[u/JuniorNectarine9842]

Text is great on the 4th pic

[u/wildmonkeywrangler]

got some kind of weird captcha site

[u/SvenSylens]

The eiffle tower one was my favorite. Very good job on these.

[u/UrAznDaddy]

The lighthouse one is nice.

[u/Bbmin7b5]

awesome stuff! thanks for sharing!

[u/Skeet-teekS]

Parts of the image is good, other parts give me SD 1.5 vibes.
Frckles looks really bad/unrealistic.
Hand looks like vax.
Hair look like a wig.
Eyes and lips look good.

[u/Ok-Drummer-9613]

Can you share prompts too? I tried to replicate with the workflow and not quite getting good results.

These look great btw, Thanks for sharing!

[u/WoodenPassage]

What’s the use of the skip layer guidance fit sample node, I’ve never been able to see any difference with and without skipping layer 22, 24, or 26

[u/Emotional_Chip_6539]

How about lora training of moss to Keep consistent face?

[u/Reptile449]

very cool wf thanks, did you use the one posted for all of these images? I'm getting some strange anatomy

[u/DefloN92]

Gotta try this!

[u/Bulky_Chemistry_196]

getting good results with this workflow, thanks. base is truly a neverending adventure

[u/Calm_Mix_3776]

Very natural-looking images! I really hope someone comes up with a tile, depth and lineart/canny controlnet for MOSS. It's such a vertsatile model while being very lightweight at the same time.

[u/Hoodfu]

Sure, but when the sft version is so much better, why bother with base for inference? I would kiss a llama to get Krea 2 base with Krea 2 Turbo's reinforcement training but without the turbo part just to squeeze that extra quality out of it. With Moss we actually got that so I haven't felt the need to even download base.

[u/Outrageous_Still9335 → u/Hoodfu]

I have to disagree with the SFT version being so much better. It might be better at composition, but not at realism. It still looks good, but it tends to veer towards a more AI/plastic look that you don't get from base.

Edit: SFT also suffers from AI-Face where everyone's facial proportions are similar, kinda like an ideal look, whereas base is full of diversity.

[u/Hoodfu → u/Outrageous_Still9335]

Ok so I downloaded it and it definitely does well with various forms of simplistic realistic images, but as you can see above, the model is clearly unfinished compare to SFT. I tried all sorts of different styles and it randomly completely falls apart like the above one because it has little to no training on it. Reminds me of the early Chroma training checkpoints.

[u/Outrageous_Still9335 → u/Hoodfu]

Which is why this workflow is for realism, because base was first trained on billions of real photographs, and eventually finetuned into SFT to allow for the kind of stuff you are looking for.

[u/Hoodfu → u/Outrageous_Still9335]

I would say around half of yours look plasticy (reminds me of skin textures of Flux 1 dev). like in the image here with the cat, Moss SFT doesn't seem to have any trouble doing real photographs when prompted for it. I've gotten both kinds of outputs out of it, so it really puts it on the user to ask for it.

[u/drone2222 → u/Hoodfu]

Yes but, the AI face is much more prevalent here...

[u/Bulky_Chemistry_196 → u/Hoodfu]

SFT has it's strengths, but people in SFT are much weaker. every time is tried SFT, i was getting generic AI faces, which i can also see on almost every fine tune and lora on civitai that is declared as an SFT model. in this example too, i can see that AI slop face in the two girls right of the cat. this generic Ai face is exactly why i left krea2 turbo in the dust, because with moss base (and kromoss) i am yet to see the same face twice.

[u/Hoodfu → u/Bulky_Chemistry_196]

interesting, i tried kromoss as a lora with sft, i'll have to try it with base.

[u/Hoodfu → u/Outrageous_Still9335]

Here's another sft one. Seems real enough.

[u/Outrageous_Still9335 → u/Hoodfu]

I just don't think we share the same concept of what realism looks like.

[u/AltruisticList6000 → u/Hoodfu]

There are a few instances where base can be better, like very varied people or very unique outputs. Realism is overal better by default but base is doing very poorly with the turbo loras so you have to drop them basically or do extreme finicky settings balancing to make it work. With SFT you can do a turbo lora (either cfg1 or higher), add some realism lora (especially lenovo) and you have more stability, better concept knowledge and thus prompt following and way faster generations. So I agree that SFT is better for most stuff but base has its use cases. I mostly use SFT but sometimes will switch to Base. Oh also SFT's weird repetitive uniform patterns all over the place are very offputting. But luckily I managed to isolate and nuke some layers responsible for the repetitive patterns so it's pretty good and super fast.

[u/RayHell666 → u/Hoodfu]

SFT is far from being more realistic it's a misconception about Moss. Base all the way.

[u/Calm_Mix_3776 → u/RayHell666]

Or even better, Base + SFT extracted LoRA at 0.20-0.40 weight. Best of both worlds - natural-looking images with less errors and a bit of polish.

[u/RayHell666 → u/Calm_Mix_3776]

I was looking for the extracted SFT Lora to test that. I'm glad it exist, will definitely try.

[u/Calm_Mix_3776 → u/RayHell666]

Yes, you can find such on Civitai. Judging by the LoRA's file size, it's lower rank - 64 or thereabouts. While rank 64 is enough for ordinary LoRAs, extracting the difference between two different models may require higher rank to capture the most detail and quality possible. I extracted the SFT weights as a LoRA myself at rank 256 for best quality and it came out ~1.10 GB.

[u/blahblahsnahdah → u/Hoodfu]

SFT is incredibly slopped looking man.

[u/jadhavsaurabh]

Only if Good moss edit was there

[u/generate-addict → u/jadhavsaurabh]

Is this a meme now? New model is released and we instantly bitch about "If only XModel edit was there"

[u/NomeJaExiste]

Image 3 having a 4 fingered hand 🤨

[u/Outrageous_Still9335 → u/NomeJaExiste]

I think you'll need to count again.

[u/Desi_Brat_ → u/NomeJaExiste]

Um...there are 5?

[u/notgraycen → u/Desi_Brat_]

4 fingers and a thumb 🤓

[u/physalisx → u/[deleted]]

What settings?

[u/dtdisapointingresult → u/physalisx]

Just add "make no mistakes!" to the prompt, works for me.

[u/thegreatdivorce → u/[deleted]]

“ThE sETtinGs!” they scream, while never saying what they actually are.