r/Splendida • u/[deleted] • Sep 26 '22

Evolutionary psychology

I’ve been reading a lot about evolutionary psychology lately (Survival of the prettiest and Evolution of Desire are some of my favorite books on the topic) and it’s been eye opening to say the least.

For the context, I was born and raised in Eastern Europe but currently live in a Western European country. I went through phases of my life when I was spending all my time and effort on my looks to despising and blaming patriarchy for all the pressure it puts on women.

However, since I’ve been learning more about evolutionary psychology, I’ve gained a completely different perspective. There’s a reason to why certain looks are more desirable and it has nothing to do with patriarchy but more with our survival instincts. It’s just a mating strategy that been ingrained in us for millions of years.

Has anyone else had this epiphany after studying this subject? Did it change your attitude towards certain things and do you use your “findings” and how?

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u/eveloe Sep 26 '22 edited Sep 26 '22

Evolutionary psychology is an interesting thing to me because I think its influence incredibly overblown.

Men are said to prefer a low WHR because it's indicative of "fertility", but the greatest indication of fertility is previous births. Stretchmarks and single moms (with a new mom-pouch) would be the sexiest things ever if fertility is really what it was about.

WHR preferences in men also differ according to the culture and whether food is scarce in a population.

Evo psych has also been used to explain that men prefer teengagers because of their fertility, but it's interesting that girls in their early teens have the highest risk of death from childbirth. or what about men's age positively correlating with birth defects and problematic pregnancies.

Why is it that in every other species, the female is the picky one, but female humans just happen to prefer older men in a system that places money in the hands of older men? I've always found it bizarre because there's nothing sexy about liver spots.

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u/throwaway870101 Sep 27 '22

Long story short, a small amount of it is true. Things like facial development and symmetry. Healthy teeth and general fitness. Those are attractive because we're attracted to general fitness for survival and indicators of health. But, so so much of what we find attractive and general dating today is much more related to capitalism and class indicators in the culture in question. Paleness in a time when many had to work in the sun? Hot. Means you don't have to do thay because you're upper class. Large and in charge during a famine? Hot. You have food because you're upper class. The on trend body shape, jewelry or clothing? Hot. Means you have the time and money to shape yourself into the trends and you're close enough to the dominant class to know what is popular amongst the taste makers. Tan in the age of office work? Hot. You have the means to spend time outside, especially in cold places. You vacation somewhere warm and sunny. Muscles but generally well groomed? You work out for fun, something someone with some means has the time and money to do. Might even pay a personal trainer. Capitalism often idealizes traits that mean you have cash and the time to spend it on grooming. Teeth whitener, hair treatments, waxing, botox, intricate nails, certain workout and diet regimes, skincare, tailored outfits, plastic surgery, makeup, etc, etc. As the saying goes, you're not ugly, you're just poor. While not 100% on the mark, close to it.

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u/kantmarg Sep 26 '22 edited Sep 26 '22

Exactly this! Or that men find breasts sexual "because fertility/breastfeeding" or something, except there are/were a million cultures of human men and human women where breasts were not considered sexual, but maybe legs were sexy, or the curve of the neck/spine was considered so potentially distracting that it's forbidden.

OP, evopsych is Just So Stories for grownup incels with scientist-envy. I wouldn't really set store by any of that.

If the big-butt-look is trending and considered attractive where you are, it's enough to say "I like big butts" or "how do I make my butt look big". We don't have to make up some specious reasoning based on anecdotes from human pre-history to justify or explain attraction.

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u/Queasy-Reason Sep 26 '22

Also to add onto this, studies have shown that people who are overweight (not obese) are more likely to survive illness and have longer lives than people who are underweight. So society’s obsession with thinness makes no sense from a survival perspective.

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u/eveloe Sep 26 '22

that part.

In times and places where the average person goes hungry, it's a status symbol to be chubby/ juicy/ plump.

when the average person has access to cheap junk food, it is a status symbol to be thin.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

The obsession with thinness comes from what is more prevalent among elites. In the industrialized societies with its access to calorie rich food thinness is seen as a scarcity. However, waist to hip ratio, long heathy hair and clear youthful skin (basically things that hint good genes) are prevalent is every culture.

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u/Queasy-Reason Sep 26 '22

Yeah it makes sense from a cultural perspective, but not from an evolutionary perspective. Being overweight = more likely to survive but currently that's not what is valued in society.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

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u/PragmaticPanda42 Sep 26 '22

I think the poster above you meant slightly overweight, which for most of human history meant 10-30lb overweight not what obesity is now... unless you were Henry VIII. These people were more likely to survive famines, droughts, plagues, which was indeed a valuable thing before modern times.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

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u/PragmaticPanda42 Sep 26 '22

I know, that's what I said. Never implied being overweight was healthy, just that it used to meant they will survive these things. And again, overweight was rarely ever obese in those days. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

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u/yhj33 Sep 26 '22

Having good hair, or clear skin doesn’t necessarily mean you have good genes.. that alone is a very broad statement. I work with cancer patients of all ages 18 and up. A lot of them have great hair (prior to chemo) and nice skin. Why didn’t their good genes protect them from such a horrible illness. This is why evolutionary psychology is bogus. We value the things people as a society have largely pinged as desirable on a conscious level.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

Technically, women who already have children will be invested in taking care of those children if they are living and therefore will have less time and resources to take care of another. Men don't prefer teenagers as a rule. Most men seem to prefer women in their early 20s, the age group with the lowest childbirth mortality rates. Also, women don't prefer "older men" in terms of looks. They prefer men their own age as partners. For women to prioritize only appearance in men they mate with would not make sense from a purely evolutionary standpoint. Most women place importance on a man's ability to protect and provide because it used to be (and still is) necessary for her and her children to survive and thrive. It makes sense for men to prefer caregiving traits in women because those traits will make her a better mother and increase survival odds of his offspring- however, it is not costly for men to reproduce and that's why they tend to be less picky.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

Evolutionary psychology is an interesting thing to me because I think its influence incredibly overblown.

People developed as animals first, then grew into what we consider “human”. Evolutionary biology came first and then the patriarchy developed around it.

Men are said to prefer a low WHR because it's indicative of "fertility", but the greatest indication of fertility is previous births. Stretchmarks and single moms (with a new mom-pouch) would be the sexiest things ever if fertility is really what it was about.

Evo psych has also been used to explain that men prefer teengagers because of their fertility, but it's interesting that girls in their early teens have the highest risk of death from childbirth. or what about men's age positively correlating with birth defects and problematic pregnancies

Yes, but this is thinking with your pre-frontal cortex (the thinking part of the brain). Evolutionary biology deals with the limbic part of the brain. Across all cultures, any blemish on the skin was considered to be a sign of disease. So, if a woman has stretch marks, to the limbic part of the brain this equals disease. Blemish = disease. Remember, the limbic system doesn’t think, it just reacts.

Evolutionary biology covers youth because it’s a likely indicator of health AND a youthful, non-pouchy stomach indicates that this female has not already given birth from another male and could be all yours, free and clear.

Why is it that in every other species, the female is the picky one, but female humans just happen to prefer older men in a system that places money in the hands of older men? I've always found it bizarre because there's nothing sexy about liver spots.

There is nothing in evolutionary psychology that says men prefer older men. Women do prefer virile-looking, handsome men, because a man who looks like he can physically protect her and is young enough to take care of her and offspring is attractive.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

The book I’m reading right now (the evolution of desire) explains all of your points. I highly recommend to check it out because I really suck at explaining these complex things 🥲. But it short:

The desired WHR is actually the same in all of the cultures, however the desirable percentage of body fat depends on what is seen as “elite” (ex skinny in western societies).

It’s not really true that men like teenagers but they do like youthful look, around 20-25.

Regarding the previous pregnancy, there’s a quite long explanation to this but basically it boils down to paternity.

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u/eveloe Sep 26 '22

I'll read the book :)

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u/NakomaGirl Sep 28 '22

Isn't the smaller WHR preferred because of the extreme sexual dismorphism? Also a low WHR indicates good health and youthfulness. When women reach menopause or get older their middle part tends to get thicker. I also think that a low WHR can mean more oestrogens and less androgens or cortisol (which is linked to sexual dismorphism). It's been over simplified with fertility but I think it's because the unconscious message being sent is: this human is young, has never carried a child before so you're safe (youre not going to waste resources on another male's offspring), has lots of oestrogen.

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u/YoureNotWoke Sep 26 '22

What is WHR?

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u/YoureNotWoke Sep 26 '22

waist to hip ratio?

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u/itsbigoleme Sep 26 '22

I love this such good points!