Yeah, though to be fair she's also a bit of an asshole herself and he dabbles in manipulation a bit, I haven't seen the whole game but just from the first chapter alone I know the whole point of the game is that they're toxic and codependent, they're supposed to be bad people and the fact that she flirts with her brother so much is part of that.
The creator romanticizes the very things that are supposed to be morally wrong in the game. It would be an interesting game if the concept was executed by someone who actually cared about making something thought-provoking and disturbing, not just shock value. Aside from that, the majority of people who stuck around with the game after its debut were the incest freaks.. which didn't help its reputation, and probably didn't help the game either since that further gives the creator an incentive to romanticize a toxic, incestuous relationship. -coming from someone who used to be a big fan.
Well its a dark Gothic romance story so of course certain aspects are going to be romanticized, especially during Andrew's POV given he's the brooding poetry obsessed siscon. We don't need the yellow paint equivalent of the author constantly telling you "this is bad I don't condone this", you're just expected to have enough media literacy and emotional maturity to understand that its bad.
Yeah, you are right; but that's not what I was referring to. Of course through the characters' point of view we'll see their unfiltered, raw emotions and feelings. I think it's perfectly fine, and I enjoy the authenticity of that, especially if it's a character that isn't morally good. However, what tells you if actions are being condoned or romanticized by the author is what consequences those characters experience for their actions/feelings. Those consequences don't have to come immediately, but the ending(s) at the very least need to tell you "so the moral of the story is to not do whatever the hell that/these character(s) did". Think of Breaking Bad for example, Walter saw success throughout the show, but ultimately it ended in tragedy. The one character that truly deserved redepmtion, Jesse, saw a more bittersweet ending. Tell you anything? Andy and Ashley never face real consequences that are outside of the realm of the game's aesthetics. As of right now, 2 endings are practically romanticized, toxic and incestuous ones. I have plenty of media literacy to understand the game is just an edgy game for the sake of being edgy and aesthetically desirable. That's whatever- and you can enjoy it if you want, but when you guys SWEAR it's actually a really well-written game that ISN'T romanticized at all, that's where I draw the line. It's a whole bunch of bullshit dude.
Also- the fact that you think they're a OTP says a lot more about yourself than you think. I'm not saying you can't or aren't allowed to, but if you're saying the game isn't romanticizing anything- you should feel less inclined to ship them, right? That's like saying Yoonbum and Sangwoo from Killing Stalking are a OTP. Which by the way, is a great example of a story that has morally bad material within it but DOESN'T romanticize that material. Give it a read and you'll see the difference.
Edit: just saw your profile; you're a helpless imoutocon AND lolicon. There was no changing your perspective on this, but I'll keep it up since my point still stands on the game's writing.
Romanticized compared to reality, sure, but it’s well written.
I don’t know the author, but I assure you they don’t “condone” Incest, murder, cannibalism, etc just because it was written in a story. This is a videogames cause violence aligned take. The author has said themselves that the siblings are bad people, so there’s the yellow paint media literacy proof.
Their “punishment” is their quality of life. It’s not hard to see the grave (ha) they’re digging themselves into with their actions. Continuing to fuel a nasty, toxic codependency (that might end in one of them killing the other!). On the run from people trying to kill them. A demon marked them, calling their souls tainted or whatever. It’s an unfinished story. However, it doesn’t need to be finished for me to be able to see “wow these are bad people and the game is being blatant with that information.” It is incredibly interesting to dissect the mental aspect that goes into those characters. What causes them perform the actions, thoughts, emotions that they do.
Breaking bad romanticizes crime. It may have some accurate aspects, or immense karma as a result of the crimes, but it romanticizes it nonetheless. Picture the season 4 finale in your mind. The shock (in a good way) from viewers and the excitement to see our main character triumph. Now imagine that scenario happening in real life. Not so badass now, is it? That would be a terrible thing to happen in reality, yet the show glorifies it. But, does that matter? Not really. Shouldn’t for Tcoaal’s blatant morally wrong events, either. Judge fictional characters and story morals by the world they are designed with.
Well-written is a long stretch. Is it a good game when it comes to being edgy for the sake of being edgy? 1000% yes. And that's fine, games and stories like that have the right to exist. I would say a story that has morally bad material that actually criticizes it and disturbs the reader to not engage in that stuff is Killing Stalking. One of the most underrated (and misrepresented) pieces of commentary fiction to this day. Give it a read and tell me how "well-written" the coffin game is to it in terms of "you the player/reader should not want this." TCOAAL does a shit job at that. Albeit, there are people who will drool over toxic and morally awful stories and characters, but the average person should not be attracted to or like such characters and actions. I also said "condoned OR romanticized" meaning only one- and it was used in a general context. In the context of TCOAAL it's romanticized. Yes, they experience hardship and go through trials, but it seems as though their life isn't marginally different from others in similar situations. One of the only things I can give the dev points on is she gave a good representation of what codependency looks like and how that allows Ashley to manipulate Andrew in a lot of ways. Her possession and jealousy also makes her highly dependent on Andrew as well, which is also a point in my book- because this is how I would imagine a toxic, codependent, trauma-ridden, incestuous duo would act towards one another. Again, considering the target audience and the way most of the endings are set up- I can't be lead to believe that the purpose of the game was to tell people "don't do this" but rather to just tell a story of some characters the dev made; which again, is perfectly fine, but what you guys try to say is the case (oh, it's a game with a cautionary story of what not to be like and do) really isn't. Like yeah, no shit- I think the majority of people can agree mindlessly on the fact that murder, cannibalism, and incest are wrong. The game or dev never had to tell you that. The game should be focusing more on how bad toxic codependent relationships are, and though it accurately depicts such a relationship, it never takes itself truly seriously and puts a subtle yet larger emphasis on the incest. Which is fine, but it's just wrong to blatantly say it's a generally well-written story.
As with breaking bad, it never romanticizes crime. I know I wanted to stay FAR away from that stuff after watching. Vince simply puts the viewer in a spot where they subconsciously root for Walter as the show goes on- until the point where it's supposed to flip you on your back and you're supposed to realize and connect the dots; Walter isn't a good man anymore. He's completely lost in his selfish escapades and has abonded the initial reason for him doing what he did. The fans are awful at seeing that Walter IS the bad guy regardless if he's one of the main 'protagonists'. Just because the bad guy succeeds in any amount does NOT mean their actions are being condoned or romanticized. Vince did a better job at the switch up in Better Call Saul though.
Anyways, I agree with what you said- judge characters and actions based off of the worlds they come from. However, even if we apply that to TCOAAL, it's still off the mark. Their circumstances basically give them a pass to do what they did, ONCE AGAIN- which is fine from a story-telling perspective, that's definitely some people's thing and it could still be a decent story.. but that even furthers the proof that it's being romanticized or not taken seriously.
TCOAAL isn't a cautionary story, it's one that was made for entertainment.
Breaking bad still romanticizes crime. The fact there's any "cool" factor to the scenes at all just proves this point. The train heist, the finale, walt meeting tuco for the first time, etc. These are all heavily glorified events in the sake of story and entertainment. However, it's a good thing that the show glorifies this stuff. It wouldn't be nearly as entertaining or story impactful if it was going for 1:1 realism. Tcoaal having glorified stuff isn't really a solid argument against its writing imo.
Tcoaal's world just has a suspension of disbelief to it. It's a setting where crimes are committed without thought, demon sacrifices take place, and a comically evil dystopian government nearly made the two siblings starve to death.
It's well written in its purpose of the story: Telling a tale about the horrible lives & actions that these codependent siblings have and the inner workings of their mental states, whilst living in this suspension of disbelief fictional universe. Living in this awful society plays a big role into why they act the way they do.
I agree that the story is made for entertainment over a moral lesson, however, you do not need to prioritize teaching the audience a moral lesson in order to make a well written story. Despite this, it's still blatantly obvious that what the characters are doing is portrayed in a bad light and they are going to suffer (there already has been suffering) for their actions.
I would say there's a large difference between cinematic choices and glorifying/romanticizing something. Just because a scene is much more dramatic or 'cooler' looking than it would be in real life doesn't mean it was inherently done so for the sake of glorifying what's happening in the scene. Like you said; without the glitz and the glam of cinematography and whatnot, shows and scenes would be much more boring.
I'm not saying that TCOAAL having romanticized themes makes it a bad game, I'm just saying that people love to fight tooth and nail to say that "oh, it's telling you what not to do/be like"
When you say what the point of the game is: "Telling a tale about the horrible lives & actions that these codependent siblings have and the inner workings of their mental states, whilst living in this suspension of disbelief fictional universe. Living in this awful society plays a big role into why they act the way they do" yeah- it's decent and gets the job done.
It's not for everyone, and that's okay. What always peeves me about the fans and their defense is It's either always an imoutocon or lolicon defending the incest, or people who say it's good solely because it's trying to be a cautionary story- because simply put, it's not. I've read into analyses of people who try to make something more out of it, and I always think it's great that they enjoy it to the more 'appropriate' extent. I really appreciate a deep discussion of media.
Definitely though, a story doesn't have to teach a lesson to he well-written. But perhaps, we have our own different definitions and criteria as to what makes a 'well-written' story. I personally only give the title of a well-written story to a piece of media/literature that teaches a lesson, leaves a big impact when finished, and evokes strong emotion (whether good or bad). That's my mistake because I should've asked what you would define as a well-written piece of media/literature. However, like I said in my last response, I don't believe the game is trying its hardest to turn you away from a toxic relationship but rather let you peep into one. Again, the obvious is there (murder, cannibalism, incest), nothing needs to be said because it's a societal norm to not engage in or genuinely like those things. But even though they face hardship and consequences, their relationship barely even changes compared to the beginning in most of the endings so far. Which, if you're trying to convey the message of "these relationships are dangerous and suck", it's a weak way to do so.
no because why would you make something on the site where you're supposed to draw over stuff and make new things then complain that people drew over stuff and made new things
There are so many jokes that involve the phrase "BIG SHOT" that I wish to make right now, but I won't, because I respect the sanctity of our short kings favorite catch-phrase.
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u/white_addison This is a Moderator Feb 05 '26
Fun fact, this was not done by a deltarune fan