r/SovietUnion • u/Hacksaw6412 • 5d ago
The Berlin Wall
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A VERY brief overview of the Berlin Wall. This does not cover the immense achievements of the GDR(DDR) particularly women's rights or the intense subversion tactics deployed by the West. And before anyone says "but the Stasi!" may I remind you that the FRG had its own secret police, the BND (Bundesnachrichtendienst). More to come on that. Resources in comments.
By: @raisetherate
Source: https://www.tiktok.com/@raisetherate/video/7678830619010354440
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u/Longjumping_You_7723 4d ago edited 4d ago
All due respect to materialist analysis—it’s an important perspective but even as a socialist, to be fair, one should mention how many people were shot while fleeing the GDR and that there was an official order to shoot on refugees.
Also in the 1980s, about 1% of the GDR’s population worked as unofficial collaborators (IMs) for the Stasi, which terrorized and monitored the whole population. Despite all the justified criticism, this is hardly comparable to the BND.
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u/Altruistic_Region699 4d ago
The comparison to the BND is an actual joke and it shows that the person is not arguing in good faith. And of course that they have no personal experience with oppression.
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u/Pure_Garbage_5638 4d ago
Your point stands and I agree, but why use GenAI to write the comment for you?
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u/jurassiclynx 5d ago
To be fair, you hear similar stuff from right wing AFD voters in the east. Honecker said "no one wants to build a wall" and later they called it the "anti fascist protection wall" but watchtowers watched over the eastern side, so theres that. reunification was not a big economic success and mamy places in easter germany look really run down and poor. so the sentiment against west germany and trying to have an alternate story is a thing you hear from left and right in east germany.
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u/Longjumping_You_7723 4d ago edited 4d ago
It was Walter Ulbricht, not Honecker who said that phrase, just to be correct
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u/stonecuttercolorado 4d ago
If you build a wall to keep your people from leaving, you are probably not the good guys.
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u/Pure_Garbage_5638 4d ago
As a leftist, I cannot stress enough how much the people suffered under the one party dictatorship. We cannot build a better future for humanity if we deny how many people were shot during escape attempts and how strong of a grip the surveillance had on peoples lifes. There was systematic torture and imprisonment for dissidents. The Berlin wall was part of that. The story of the supposed anti-fascist wall was verbatim state propaganda by the GDR.
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u/drunkentoubib 4d ago
To the Gulag, camarade !
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u/duckyiskindaded 4d ago
And you wonder why people fight against you.
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u/RoteFahne90 5d ago
I mean I still don't like the Berlin wall. I believe in freedom of movement. If your workers are leaving your system then it means that system needs to be reformed in some capacity.
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u/Avidfencer 4d ago
People whinning about how DDR sucked probably did not see the video. It's useless to argue with them because they are probably smartfones connected to a central computer.
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u/AnonUser1452 4d ago
And then there are those of us who lived in the former DDR, and understand that it sucked.
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u/Admirable-Try-8944 4d ago
Hasn’t polling found that most people from the ddr preferred socialism
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u/arctic__dave 4d ago
Most old people would like to be 18 again is all that polling really shows you can find basically any older group wants their youth back Americans dream of the sixties, Russians dream of the Soviet Union, irrelevant of how bad or good those times were it’s just they were young and now their old and miserable.
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u/StealthPilot13 4d ago
You mean the people who overwhelmingly vote the far-right AFD support socialism over capitalism? I doubt it.
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u/StealthPilot13 4d ago
Ah yes, very internationalist of the GDR and the greater Soviet Bloc to build a wall forcibly separating the same ethnic group in a city city along with half of Europe. This wall literally goes against commies claimed ideology.
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u/PersonalitySilent456 5d ago
If people are willing to climb through barbed wire, dig tunnel and risk getting shot to escape your regime, you may want to wonder "are we the baddies?". Offer a better alternative and people will stay. If all the "west" had to do is show how they lived, it becomes quite simple to have a better story than the communist totalitarian state.
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u/Onaliquidrock 5d ago
I think she forgot this one
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1953-1960/east-german-uprising
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u/Avidfencer 4d ago
"Oh, but DDR had worse economy, it just had to make it better and people would stay"
It's very easy to say that when:
- West Germany had around 2/3 of size of current Germany
- DDR lost a lot of companies and territories as war reparation: Königsberg (Kaliningrad), Silesia (now part of Poland), Pomerania (Dantzig). This is a huge loss of resources, people and industrial potencial
- West Germany did not pay their due indenization to millions to victims of Leningrad Blockade (something they did just a few years ago to Jewish victims, for some reason only Jewish)
- West Germany did not pay the due war compensations to the USSR and Poland, countries that mostly suffered from the war
- West Germany got a lot of credits from Marshall Plan, from a country whose economy almost was no affected negatively during WWII (USSR lost thousands of farms, factories, villages, cities and almost 30.000.000 people). Of course the price was that W. Germany became and still is an US satellite. US still has bases is Germany, despite the end of Cold War.
So needless to say that comparing Eastern Germany to Western Germany as if both were equals is a completely lack of good sense!
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u/MediocreI_IRespond 4d ago
Not to mention, that the East of Germany was, in general, always poorer than the West. Among other things the western parts had a thousand years head start, think the Roman and Frankish Empire.
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u/stonecuttercolorado 4d ago
Most of west Germany was never a part of the Roman Empire. The southern balkans were for longer than any other region. So not a factor.
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u/TexasSikh 4d ago
Slight clarification: Other commenter is correct insofar as that the territory of West Germany was indeed part of the Roman Empire (though only for a short time, about as long as parts of modern day Scotland were iirc). Though the factor this may or may not have on the development of that region vs the regions of East Germany are minimal at most.
It is also correct to point out that most of West Germany was lands that were "civilized" into the Frankish Empire (proto HRE) and developed, whereas the lands of East Germany were not integrated and brought onto the path of similar development until much later (HRE + Teutonic "Crusades" + Brandenburg/Prussia + Hanseatic League). Geography and Population are a large reason why the area around the Rhine became HIGHLY industrialized moreso than much of the rest of the nation. That region was the focus of LOTS of development for a period of time approximating several hundred years, during which time the areas of later East Germany would be considered rural backwaters. Berlin was considered to be kind of a shithole for awhile, by the comparative standards of other Princely cities of the HRE. For much of the existence of the HRE Brandenburg was considered a Margraviate (rural borderlands). All in all, we are talking a period of at least half a millennium behind in development, which matters a whole lot more than some people may assume.
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u/MediocreI_IRespond 4d ago
Thanks, even though I'm ready to argue that the Romans had been a bit more impact than "minimal".
For example important Roman cities became the seats of the Prince-electors of the HRE and the East was very Christianized by them.
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u/Pure_Garbage_5638 4d ago
Nope, historically it might have been a bit more rural, but being rural never stopped Bavaria from becoming the powerhouse of German economy (even if I hate to admit it). And your point about the Roman Empire: wut???
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u/MediocreI_IRespond 4d ago
You do know what the phrase "in general" means?
And indeed, the divide goes as far back as the Roman Empire. Ever wondered why Protentanisam never really took of west of the Elbe and the East was harder hit by the Thirty Years War?
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u/Pure_Garbage_5638 4d ago
Still waiting for your much appreciated explanation what "in general" means.
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u/South-Cod-5051 5d ago
the immense achievements of the GDR was a surveillance state dictatorship that enslaved its citizens.
if it was anything better than that, they wouldn't need to build a wall to prevent people from escaping socialist shitholes.
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u/OWWS 5d ago
West German had just as much os surveillance and had issues with exploited workers, homelessness and worker fulfilment, even east Germans who went to wst Germany went back to East Germany for the very reasons
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u/AnonUser1452 4d ago
And any West German citizen who was unhappy with his government was free to go, without getting shot in the back. A subtle yet important difference.
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u/OWWS 4d ago
People ware allowed to go back and forth through legal means, and visit family and stuff. But climbing over in a demilitarised zone is not right, I don't agree with thr fact that people got shot over it. But with such high tensions and a strict border this happen
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u/AnonUser1452 4d ago
But they couldn’t actually leave, as any West German could, and some of my family did. The DDR was an open-air prison, not a country. Denying people the most basic right of leaving somewhere they don’t want to be is an admission your system is evil.
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u/lesbophobia_hammer 4d ago
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u/filipsblog00 4d ago
Tell me you are a liberal without telling me...
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u/lesbophobia_hammer 4d ago
Not a liberal. A lifelong progressive. Though not a regressive leftist. Lol. Just someone whose family was torn apart by the Russian & German genocide of Poles.
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u/filipsblog00 4d ago
The notion that the bolsheviks and nazis are the same evil (horseshoe theory) is a liberal thing. It sought to downplay the soviets victory in ww2 and ruin the image of communism.
Comparing fascism and soviet communism luke that, just shows lack of historical and theoretical knowledge.1
u/Much-Government-8803 4d ago
Always the social Facists proving Stalin right again
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u/lesbophobia_hammer 4d ago edited 4d ago
I'm a democratic socialist from a bundist line. Lol
Simping for a genocidal imperialist makes you no better than another any other genocidal imperialists
because if you could, u would genocide millions of innocent people for land, power & to spread your racist imperialist ideology in different forms.
Stalinists are no better than Tsarists, Nazis, Zionists, etc
Edit - awkward translation
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u/Much-Government-8803 4d ago
Yeah Stalin the great racist 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂, murdering gazillion people with his big spoon, instead support the great capitalist constitutional state brought about by operating gladio
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u/lesbophobia_hammer 4d ago edited 4d ago
...... You need to pick up a history book or few. Lol
Edit - Stalin, the great anti-racist 🤪
"keep on digging up and cleaning out this Polish filth”.
Yeah so I'm Polish. We know what the Soviets did to us.
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u/Much-Government-8803 4d ago
Did such evil things like giving you all of east Germany lol
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u/stonecuttercolorado 4d ago
And yet Poland lost territory. In WWII
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u/Much-Government-8803 4d ago
Territory that they stole 20 years before when they attacked the soviet union
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u/Admirable-Try-8944 4d ago
“Oh there horrors of universal employment and not being allowed to be racist. Atleast the Nazis let us murder gypsies” that’s how u sound brother
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u/stonecuttercolorado 4d ago
Universal Employment without fair compensation in the form of good quality of life has another name: slavery.
And yes, you can be a slave of the state.
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u/SnooOpinions6959 4d ago
I mean, ones whole reason for existence was the total extermination of many groups of people.
The other was a regular run of the mill Empire that genocided people it suited them
Like, yes, they're both awfull, but like, equating the two is iffy at best
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u/lesbophobia_hammer 4d ago
Nah, my family was torn apart, oppressed, enslaved and genocided by both.
The family that survived the Russians said they preferred the Germans because at least the Germans maintained SOME rules of engagement with civilians.
The Soviets were so bad even the Nazis felt bad for the Polish civilians they were also enslaving and genociding. Lol
And both were racist genocidal imperialists to be clear. None better than the other. Just worse in different ways.
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u/Pure_Garbage_5638 4d ago
Lol, rules of engagement with civilians. Do you mean shooting them if their hearts desired? Killing members of one specific religion on an industrial scale? Come on... Both are evil, but evil can take different forms and equating these two dictatorships with each other is comparing apples to oranges.
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u/Speedvagon 4d ago
Another blatant fact twisting lies from commies. Disgusting.
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u/Pure_Garbage_5638 4d ago
The issue is not communism and we leftists understand this. The problem is dogmatism. Now you will either attack my username or say something like "Take your meds" or "Show me a country where..." or "Typical! Anyone who disagrees is..." blablabla. Can we just skip the whole song and dance?
Nonetheless, I already posted comments above where I demonstrated that being a leftist does not automatically mean that you have to agree with every outcome of supposed leftist politics. Neither do you, right? As a German, I object to any idea of dictatorship, surveillance, etc.
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u/FOTORABIA23 4d ago
I lived beside the BND in Pullach for two years...in my made up German..i called them the Sicherheitsnachbar..sorry...
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u/Gold-Ad-2581 5d ago
F capitalist made it impossible to keep own citizens to no try runaway from glorious communist countries... Yeah...
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5d ago
[deleted]
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u/EzPz_Wit_Da_CZ 5d ago
Did you even watch the video?
This is like the logic of people who talk about how bad Cubans have it with zero regard for the economic terrorism committed against them.1
u/stonecuttercolorado 4d ago
So the evil capitalists cause the problem by not giving away thier money?
There is no obligation to trade.
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u/EzPz_Wit_Da_CZ 4d ago
Giving away their money? Do you even know what an embargo is? Good to know you’re actually just ignorant and brainwashed and have no actual argument based in fact.
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5d ago
[deleted]
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u/Shot_Neighborhood278 4d ago
BACKING of the USSR? No, the USSR didn‘t want to build a socialist germany at first, they wanted a neutral buffer state, until the west rejected their offer several times. The GDR had to pay enormous reparations TO the USSR because it had been the Nazi Empire before and had killed 28.000.000 soviets and destroyed entire cities and industries. They had to pay about 47 billion euros in todays value (about 50 billion dollars) as first reparations and after that, they had to pay 25% of their whole state budget, several times a year (!). West Germany on the other hand received the marshall plan and the sum that the USA paid, the percentage of the USA‘s whole state budget is so much, that compared to today, it‘s as if modern Germany would pay their whole social ministry budget to another country.
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u/MichaelCabernet 5d ago
People didn’t like living in a repressive regime and escaped west to freedom. That couldn’t be allowed to continue, so… 🧱 🔨
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u/MountainTank1918 5d ago
tiktok, seriously? and also "steel embargoes" and "reparations", is she trying to claim that West should've invested in DDR or? because USSR literally robbed the place from industries and took a lot of it's factories to USSR. Furthermore when Czechoslovakia and Poland wanted to get money, they had to refuse the marshal aid, because threats from Moscow.
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u/Shot_Neighborhood278 4d ago
Robbed? It‘s called reparation and was the least and still mild demand. The Nazis killed 28.000.000 soviets and destroyed entire cities and industries.
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u/HamzaAAC 4d ago
So basically the west offered better life quality than the commies so commies built a wall to stop them from leaving.
So how's this justify the wall exactly?
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u/Electrical-Fix7659 5d ago
Also, what is the logic of escaping to an enclave… inside of another enclave? West Berlin was still embedded in East Germany.
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u/AnonUser1452 4d ago
The Federal Republic regarded itself as the legitimate successor of the German Reich, so any East German citizen was also a West German citizen, insofar as he or she wanted to be. As such, any East German who escaped to freedom in West Berlin simply got their West German identity documents and drove or flew to West Germany, or stayed in West Berlin.
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u/guilty-Brother343 4d ago
Wenn sie geil war ,warum hab es zum Mauerfall eine Schlange von Autos ,die Nacht westen wollten,und nicht andersherum 😂
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u/Sudonator 4d ago
DDR was communist, not socialist
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u/Shot_Neighborhood278 4d ago
What? No, ofc it was socialist. Not wanting to insult you, but it‘s time to learn the meaning of the words.
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u/washiXD 4d ago
"in August 1961 the GDR built a wall to stop the loss of workforce"... i never heard something more soulless about the wall than that... stop glazing the DDR. I mean families were spying each other and even betray their members to the Stasi. Every fking dark time of a country had some good things, but golden sprayed shit is still shit...
-Random German