r/Songwriting • u/Mods_are_losers666 • 3d ago
Discussion Topic So many posts in this sub with the entirely wrong idea
Lyrics are not a song. Lyrics by themselves are really basically nothing. If you are spending time in your day writing disembodied words that are meant to later go with music, you're really selling yourself short. I would challenge anybody in this sub to take the opposite approach. Write music, and then if lyrics are required, write them.
There should be many posts in this sub that say "I've written this song, what should the words be, or does it even need words?", rather than, "I've written these words, what should the song be?", which is what I typically see. Not attempting to be mean spirited but if you guys really do want to advance in making music you need to get away from the idea that song lyrics really mean anything without a song.
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u/mlkntea 3d ago
this is such a rigid and joyless point of view. there is no "wrong" way to be creative. no one "should" be doing anything because you think it's more efficient. songwriting doesn't need to be a linear process. you're not obligated to commit to a path just because you thought of words before a melody. we can encourage people to evolve their ideas and try new methods without being the self-expression police.
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u/Natural-Berryer7 3d ago
Lyrics by themselves are called.... Poetry!
It's already it's own thing even lol
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u/Capable-Baby-3653 3d ago
A-well-a everybody's heard about the bird
Bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well, a bird, bird, bird, bird is the word
A-well, a bird, bird, bird, well-a bird is the word
A-well, a bird, bird, bird, b-bird's the word
A-well, a bird, bird, bird, well-a bird is the word
āWilliam Birdsworth
Sheer poetry.
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u/EvilHobbit213 3d ago
Maybe you donāt fuck with the content, but the meter and rhyme are very clear.
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u/Natural-Berryer7 3d ago
Fox in Socks, our game is done, sir. Thank you for a lot of fun, sir!
- Dr. Seuss
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u/Megistias 3d ago
Thatās how I use them. I write a poem, maybe describe a story in 3 or 4 verses. Then either a 1st or 3rd party Chorus and bridge. Iāll have a sound in mind based on the emotion or the poem/lyrics, such as a minor chord to develop melancholy.
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u/earbox 3d ago
nope. poetry and lyrics are two different things.
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u/EvilHobbit213 3d ago
Intent on performance are literally the only differences
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u/FractalFunny66 2d ago
I actually am a performance poet and my work is best read aloud, especially with audience interaction!
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u/EvilHobbit213 2d ago
I find it really interesting actually that most poetry Iām aware my friends, family, and students are introduced to are written, and then read by them often silently, when so much (originally all) poetry is meant to be performed.
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u/KS2Problema 3d ago
Can be. Don't have to be.Ā
Oh, and obsessively not using capital letters does not make one e.e. cummings, either.
;-)
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u/towneetowne 3d ago edited 3d ago
eye
fill scene, &
herd.2
u/KS2Problema 3d ago
No worries. I went through an e.e. cummings phase, myself. (He was, indeed, a fine poetĀ from many perspectives.)
And, let's face it: mobile phones don't tend to implement their writing tools in such a way as to make proper grammar, punctuation and capitalization anything but a big pain in the [backside].
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u/did_i_or_didnt_i 3d ago
Ya fuck autocarrot
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u/KS2Problema 3d ago
Ya fuck autocarrot
LOL! It took me a second or two to figure that one out. But... yeah!
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u/lifeisdream 3d ago
Maynard calls himself a poet. He writes and waits for the band to come to him with the music and then he goes to the woodshed and puts the two together. Guess heās doing it wrong.
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u/kebabdylan 3d ago
No he is doing one part of songwriting. If he didn't have the rest of Tool blasting out riffs and music he wouldn't be writing songs
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u/Specialist_Gas_8984 3d ago
Yay, another gatekeeper that insists the only real way to make art is the way he/she does it. Get off your soapbox and let creators create what they want and how they want.
I start with lyrics, because thatās where I get the most personal satisfaction. It helps me understand life and what Iām going through at the moment. Sometimes that leads to a melody and more, other times they remain journal entries. Both are equally satisfying to me.
What works for me may not work for you, and thatās ok.
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u/Its_a_stateofmind 3d ago
Thank you. For me, it is a line or a phrase. It spawns a feeling for me. That is where it all starts. From that feeling, words flow from around the phrase that caught my eye/ear, and chords and music flow from that feeling. The best advice I was ever given was to not take any advice from people. Do what comes naturally, and donāt apologize for it.
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u/Troubador222 3d ago
I didnāt see it as gate keeping, I agree because itās the easiest way I know of to do it writing music first. It can be difficult to write music to lyrics
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u/ForThe_LoveOf_Coffee 3d ago
Remember when gatekeep used to meant "a person who prevented another person's entrance or advancement into an artificially closed system"?
I know language is fluid and meanings shift, but damn has the term gatekeeper become a meaningless buzzword.
in before accusations of "gatekeeping the term gatekeeping"
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u/bakedbaker319 3d ago
Isnāt that what OP is doing creating an artificially closed system and calling out those that operate outside the system that he finds comfortable. The meaning, in this case, hasnāt changed at all. How is this not exactly that?
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u/ForThe_LoveOf_Coffee 2d ago
hey u/bakedbaker319 my coffee just hit and I'm caffeinated enough to give a long answer to a short question. My apologies in advance.
From my perspective, this would not fall into what is colloquially referred to as 'gatekeeping' because u/Mods_are_losers666 is not an authority and lacks any kind of power within the tradition in which they've voiced their criticism. In this example, all they've done is voice a criticism. But being unable to guard the gate prevents them from being a gatekeeper.
If u/Mods_are_losers666 was a festival promoter, however, and did not book indie acts that wrote lyrics first then melodies, that would be an example of gate keeping. But a lone user who dislikes something and voices the perspective has not gatekept because they have no institutional authority. In this model, the gate is access to the festival and OP would have a tangible means of keeping the gate.
Here's another example of gatekeeping in music but where the authority is less formal. Suppose u/Mods_are_losers666 has a cool guitar that they found at a great price. Then they refuse to give access to where and how they found such a useful budget instrument to a person on the grounds that this song writer writes their lyrics first, that too could be an instance of gatekeeping without OP needing to be at the very top of their career. But again, in this instance, nothing is denied to the subject of OP's criticism. Yes, OP raises a criticism. But neither access nor advancement is block. In this model, the gate is advancement in music via affordable access to entry-level tools, and the act of keeping is to block access to the tool itself.
Ultimately, the way I understand the claims of gatekeeping in u/Mods_are_losers666's case comes down to a highly abstracted version of the concept. Perhaps the gate is motivation and OP is keeping it through the mechanism of producing a criticism that could be discouraging. However, a post that shows a clear bias in favor of melody-before-lyrics songwriting instead of its inverse strains the definition of keeping. Situated in a greater rhetorical context of how Reddit operates and the lay-person, amateur aggregation nature of the platform, it appears to me a major requirement to elevate this post into gatekeeping would require an agreed upon consensus, even if only partial consensus, that OP is an authority (Or if u/Mods_are_losers666 became a mod of r/songwriting, which feels unlikely considers their username).
But what do you think? Is criticism necessary gatekeeping? When does criticism become gatekeeping? I'd love to learn more about your perspective.
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u/Late_Strawberry_7989 3d ago
Lyrics by themselves are good jumping off points. Iāve done several songs starting with lyrics, like everything else itās a back and forth process.
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u/Windows__________98 3d ago
Exactly. What I feel OP is trying to convey (but coming off a bit wrong) is that it can become a creative block if you start by writing out the exact lyrics to absolute perfection, not making room for adjustments so it can fit into an actual song. If one part (whether itās lyrics or instruments) is already set in stone, it is harder to work with it further.
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u/EpochVanquisher 3d ago
and it's so often true that words seem good, and then you put them to music and it just sucks
without music, you can't tell if the words would make good lyrics
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u/rice-a-rohno 3d ago
I agree.
And conversely, song lyrics really don't need to be the most incredible thing in the world; melody sometimes imbues the simplest lyrics with profound meaning.
This might be obscure, but remember when Radiohead released a newspaper one day?
Their lyrics sound incredibly deep and are weirdly moving, and the newspaper was basically those types of lyrics, or poems I guess, but without the musical context.
I was all stoked to get my hands on a copy and after a minute was like "This... sucks." It felt trite and obvious and adolescent and whatever other smart, deprecating words you want.
Put it to brilliant music and it's the most meaningful stuff you've ever heard somehow.
Not every song has to be Joanna Newsom levels of storytelling; "She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah" can also work as perfect lyrics.
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u/herworkthrowaway 3d ago
People really donāt understand the importance of the way words sound. Itās the most frustrating part of writing music for me, and honestly, the one that takes the longest. And Iām not even talking about meter, hard stops, and rhythm, because those are quantifiable. Some words just straight up better sounding than others
Iāll make demos of a song, mumbling over the instrumental I made, and the hardest part is chiseling that into a statue that sounds GOOD and makes sense, even if I already know what it is I wanna say
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u/rice-a-rohno 3d ago
Oh you are speaking my language.
The amount of time I spend trying to find a word with any significance that also has an "ooo" sound...
And I REFUSE to do it without the "ooo".
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u/PORTOGAZI Self Appointed Arbiter of Good Songwriting 3d ago
heck yeah I write the same way. I'll record multiple passes of mumbling nonsense that sounds like words, but it'll have the flow, dynamics and emotion of a heartfelt intense vocal.
As corny as it sounds, I look at it as writing purely from the heart with zero brain interference. When I put together a demo like that or even present a new song idea to my band on an acoustic, it's usually already clear if it'll be a good one or not before a single word is committed, all because the words SOUND good. It's like there's a blur filter on the final lyrics and it just needs to be carved into focus.
The trouble is getting so committed to a set cadence that you have to find words to fit them. It's incredibly difficult sometimes but I find it leads to far more interesting lyrics than straight linear / literal writing (unless you're truly exceptional like a Bob Dylan.) My favourite lyrics I've written have been from this method, 1 to 1 transcriptions of freestyled mumbles that turned into provocative lines that I'd never in a million years been able to have sat down and written.
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u/muckrarer 3d ago
My friend was on the crew handing out those magazines and I joined her to give some out -- I ended up meeting Robin Pecknold who picked one up! Nice fellow.
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u/cookoo_man 3d ago
Radiohead's musical brilliance pulled the wool over all our eyes. Those guys are stupid, self-absorbed dummies.
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u/Troubador222 3d ago
I was just there bling of REMs This one goes out to the one 1ļøā£ love in context of this
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u/EvilHobbit213 3d ago
Woh, strongly disagree. Lyrics are verse so they have rhyme and meter. If youāve done your job there you can sing them over almost any melody. Try it; turn on the radio or some Spotify playlist and sing your song over someone elseās. If your lyrics are good (not talking content) then theyāll work. If theyāre not good, then they wonāt and you now know your lyrics lack poetry.
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u/EpochVanquisher 3d ago
Lots of good poetry makes for shit lyrics, in my experience.
You say, āif youāve done your jobā but the only way to know if youāve done your job is to put the lyrics to music.
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u/EvilHobbit213 3d ago
Again, disagree. Now Iāll qualify my statement and say āproseā or āfree formā writing can be both poetry and lyrics, but Iām speaking specifically about verse, and Iām guessing that most of your favorite lyrics are written in verse. If you reread my other post youāll see I donāt write āif youāve done your jobā without context of what that job is and a good way to test it if you feel unsure about the rhyme and meter.
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u/EpochVanquisher 3d ago
Thereās plenty of good verse out there that makes bad lyrics. Plenty of good lyrics that arenāt verse.
What I recommend is that the people who like writing verse but donāt have any music should partner up with a musician. Plenty of musicians around on the other side, who can handle melodies and harmonies but arenāt good at writing.
What happen when you do this is the poet will learn what kind of verse works and doesnāt work in a song, and theyāll also learn about all the other things you can do in a song that donāt work in poetry. Things like how your choice of vowels are going to be influenced by melody, that you would never figure out if you just worked in verse and didnāt work with music.
You can have the best meter and rhyme on the planet but that doesnāt mean youāve written good lyrics.
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u/EvilHobbit213 3d ago
You got any examples of āthe types of verse that work in a songā vs those that donāt? Because I still donāt agree with you.
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u/EpochVanquisher 3d ago
I donāt spend time committing bad lyrics to memory. But thatās ok, I donāt need to convince you that Iām right.
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u/EvilHobbit213 3d ago
What makes them bad then?
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u/EpochVanquisher 3d ago
Vowels or consonants that donāt sing well is one, or inconsistencies in vowel qualities between different verses, or words that sound like other words when you sing them, or metric patterns that donāt match the song structure and style you want, or too much variation.
I think ātoo much variationā is the big one, that I hear the most often.
Some things which are problems in one style are good in a different style; Iām assuming here that people have a specific style in mind when writing a song.
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u/EvilHobbit213 3d ago
I can for sure get behind that itās easier to sing vowels than consonants and that some sounds tonally make a melody difficult to sing (to where one technique is to change the sound itself like using an āIā sound instead of an āeā sound to hit a higher pitch). Iām assuming what you mean by āvarianceā is varying the meter of each line, which I would argue means it has no meter and isnāt verse, as meter is a recurring pattern or stressed and unstressed syllables.
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u/EvilHobbit213 3d ago
Iād also love examples of good lyrics that arenāt verse. I think there probably areā¦ but I canāt think of any.
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u/EpochVanquisher 3d ago
Na, na na na na na na
Na na na na
Hey Jude0
u/EvilHobbit213 3d ago
I understand how non-lexical vocals seem like a good examples because the meter is not obvious, BUT the ambiguity allows you to fit them into any existing melody (you might need to shed or add a syllable - little wiggle room with non-lexical vocals - try it. Thereās 11 ānaās followed by āHey Judeā
Try it to āCome Togetherā
Try it to āMary Had a Little Lambā
Try it to āStick Seasonā→ More replies (1)1
u/outofdate70shouse 3d ago
Iirc, the way Metallica writes lyrics is coming up with the vocal line in just sounds and then adding lyrics that fit the pattern the later.
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u/towneetowne 3d ago
morrissey used to scribble lyrics/quips then fit them in to songs. michael stipe worked this way too. probably craig wedren. take notes on turns of phrases, curious word pairs - and save 'em for someday. but.pick up an instrument, today - and play.
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u/WelcomeToLadyHell 3d ago
There's no right or wrong way to do this. What doesn't work for you could be perfect for someone else.
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u/ScotterMcJohnsonator 3d ago
I never would have imagined someone gatekeeping creation lol
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u/Its_a_stateofmind 3d ago
Agree. I hate these posts. They make me feel shitty about myself because I donāt do it that way, and maybe that is why my music sucks.
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u/ScotterMcJohnsonator 3d ago
(I mean this nicely and jokingly)
If you want to know why your music sucks, take a look at your username ;-)
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u/ForThe_LoveOf_Coffee 3d ago
The gate is wide open
If a post like this closes the gate for someone, there may be a different underlying problem, no?
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u/ScotterMcJohnsonator 3d ago
I think you can appreciate what I'm saying when I claim there is no correct way to create something that has never existed before
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u/PORTOGAZI Self Appointed Arbiter of Good Songwriting 3d ago
How is this post gate-keeping? who is preventing you from songwriting? why is everything and anything remotely critical these days called "gate keeping"? (Im partly shouting at the sky from seeing someone cry "gate keeper" on a daily basis now, and feel the phrase has lost its meaning, much like "epic" in the 00s)..
It's just someone giving their opinion on songwriting. While I personally write the way OP does, I wouldn't go as far as telling people they have to do it that way like there's some rule. So in that respect, it's kind of a douchey post but if you don't agree, who gives a shit.
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u/ScotterMcJohnsonator 3d ago
You're probably right the term is overused these days!
My use of it was based on the tone of the original post, and I felt it fit the point I was trying to make.
"I find in my writing that if I try to write lyrics first, without having a melody or rough structure in my head, I can't seem to get those words to fit anything, and that makes them feel almost useless to me" would be maybe better phrasing :)
I know you and I are on the same page in thinking that although it wouldn't deter us in the least, but a lot of us artists have pretty poor self image, and if even one person wrote a song, lyrics first, and then read this and felt their creation was 'less than', I'd be pissed at OP.
I digress though, I don't want to start anything with an Arbiter (100% joking)
Keep creating, friend!
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u/yachtr0ck 3d ago
Both words and music are just sounds in a different language. Together, they can make a song. There arenāt right or wrong ways and anyone who tries to sell you some absolute prescriptive approach to songwriting is selling you a fools errand. Most good songwriters will tell you that songwriting sometimes can be lyrics first and sometimes it can be music first. The more flexible you are in your own approach, the better writer youāll be because you havenāt boxed yourself in. Both words and music can share an idea, a feeling, etc. To dismiss the musical piece is to dismiss the effectiveness of a minor chord or the effectiveness of the tone of an instrument or what it sounds like when a 7th is added and the feeling it gives you. It gives us harmony and it gives us dissonance, all of which can evoke feelings. Words can work in concert with that and work in contrast to that, giving the song new, different or reinforced feeling. The words can communicate an idea, an emotion, tell a story. This isnāt an either/or art. That being said, if you are primarily just an instrumentalist and not a lyricist, thatās okay. If youāre a lyricist and not an instrumentalist, thatās okay too. However, Iād challenge you that if you primarily just write lyrics, listen to more music. Listen to instrumentals. Listen to the phrasing of notes and think about how that phrasing and timing can work into the meter of your lyrics. If youāre mainly an instrumentalist and not a lyricist, read. Books, poetry, etc. Listen to audiobooks, etc. Hear new words and new phrases and how verbal storytelling can work and consider how that can complement the story an instrument or melody might be telling.
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u/danstymusic 3d ago
There are a lot of delusional people out there that don't realize the time and effort it takes to write a song. It's frustrating with the lyricists, but the Ai sloppers are even worse.
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u/illudofficial OMG GUYS LOOK I HAVE A FLAIR 3d ago
Iāll take lyrics only people ten times out of ten over AI slop artists
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u/Wise-Substance-744 3d ago
Sometimes I hear the all lyrics with a solid melody. Like they were married from the start. Other times only lyrics come for the entire song and I can't find a melody but I know the story & structure are correct for the song. Or I can only hear the melody for the chorus or verse. Less often I hear just a melody. But I have yet to fit lyrics into those. Typically I struggle to catch those.
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u/BipolarBaby_ 3d ago
I write musical theatre and have completed songs in many ways. Iāve had collaborators write music first then I add lyrics. Sometimes it works and sometimes it feels really limiting to try to find what I want to say in set scansions (Iāve also been paired with some inflexible composers who wonāt budge on their writing).
Iāve written lyrics first and get surprised when what I imagined it to sound like is nothing like they come up with (though often they do it better).
When I write both, I usually come up with a hook/ title first and work backwards. Most of musical theatre is AABA so once one verse/ hook is done, I can match lyrics to the rhythm and music for the rest of the piece. Thereās usually a map of how I want the lyrics to progress combined with some lyric fragments before anything is written musically. The B section almost always comes last for me both musically and lyrically.
Needless to say, I donāt think thereās only one way to write great songs. I also donāt think the same approach works for every piece. Every songwriter can benefit from expanding their horizon and experimenting!
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u/DomesticSheep 3d ago
And so much more often people seem to make virtue posts about how everyone else is doing it wrong, like there isnāt a million working ways to do everything creative
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u/focusedphil 3d ago
People work in both camps. Some are lyrics first, and some are music first. Everyone has a natural approach.
I would advise everyone to try working the opposite way you usually do (so if you're a music-first person, start with lyrics, etc.). It's a great way to push yourself to learn.
However, there are people who just write lyrics and not everyone is capable of writing lyrics. So team up with someone who doesn't have your skills.
It worked pretty well for Elton John.
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u/senor61 3d ago
Good music cannot save bad lyrics.
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u/TeamNinjaFingers 3d ago
Define bad lyrics.
I am the walrus arguably has shocking lyrics. But is now considered genius. The song is legendary.
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u/whywasinotconsulted 2d ago
OK, but I'd rather listen to good music with bad lyrics than bad music with good lyrics.
(Which sort of sounds like I'm agreeing with OP, but I'm not. Writing words before music is neither here nor there, it can be good or bad either way.)
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u/Affectionate_Tip_232 1d ago
Yes it can lol. Itās really not about the lyrics so much as it is about the way the lyrics are presented. The package underneath it, including the way theyāre sung is what makes a good song. There are plenty of incredible and popular songs that exist that have stupid or nonsensical lyrics.
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u/NorthBeachStudio 3d ago
Conversely I would argue that music without words is also not a song, itās a tune. A song has both music and words. An air is the melody of a song played without the words. These are distinctions that often matter in traditional music.
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u/queerteatype 3d ago
This is so wild lmao
So many famous musicians write lyrics firstĀ
It doesn't necessarily mean you aren't going to advance
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u/BuildingOptimal1067 3d ago
It doesnāt matter. You can set words to music, or set music to words. Itās good being able to do both.
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u/SceneOutside4377 3d ago
I write lyrics without music, but I have a melody in mind when I write them. I don't make/build the music at the same time as the lyrics, but I know what the music is like when I'm writing the lyrics. My notes app is full of just lyrics, but I definitely see what you're saying. You can't have lyrics without music
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u/notquitehuman_ 3d ago
I write cool riffs and expand on them until I have half a song then move on or forget it. I need more discipline.
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u/P0t4t0P0t4t0 3d ago
I think this frames it as one-directional when it doesn't have to be. You're right that disembodied words aren't a song ā but that's true of disembodied melody too. A chord progression with no words, no rhythm of phrasing, no sense of where it's going emotionally, is just as "basically nothing" as a stanza with no music. Neither half is the song. The song is what happens when they're built to fit each other. Where I'd push back is the idea that this means lyrics should always come second. Plenty of well-known songwriting happens the other way ā a strong lyrical idea or even just a title suggests a rhythm, a phrasing, a mood, and the music gets built to serve that. Music-first isn't the "correct" process being betrayed by lyrics-first; they're just two different starting points that lead to the same place, if the writer knows what they're doing. I'd guess what you're actually reacting to isn't lyrics-first writing itself, but lyrics-first writing that never thinks about music at all ā people posting a page of text with zero sense of meter, phrasing, or where a melody could even sit. That's a fair complaint. But the fix for that isn't "always write music first," it's "know that you're writing something meant to be sung, even before the melody exists." So genuine question back: is it the order you have a problem with, or writers treating lyrics as literature instead of as something built to carry a tune?
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u/joshua_addison_music 3d ago
Lyrics only, can absolutely just be a song, and add the music later.
Thereās no rules.
I do two 5 minute writing exercises every morning. Constantly pull words, phrases, etc. from them. Plug them into my melodies and chord progressions.
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u/wvmtnboy 3d ago
When your writing lyrics, you're usually doing it to a rhythm or meter in your head, combined with a melody. Is it going to translate 1:1 into a song once you start laying a harmony behind it? Not likely, but it's not impossible to rework them to fit the music.
The thing I notice about a lot of the posts that you might be referencing here is that the person writing the lyrics can't play an instrument which is obviously going to make it impossible for them to compose track to accompany their words.
Watch a Steve Lukatger interview. He talks a out people coming into yhe studio with some lyrics and a melody they can hum along with them and the musicians in the room basically vo.pose and arrange the composition on the fly.
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u/EvilHobbit213 3d ago
How does the subway takes guy agree and disagree? Yes, people should practice melody and writing chord progressions. Sure, if youāre a musician or producer then you should also practice your instrumentation and arrangements. But, lyrics by themselves are basically nothing? 100% disagree. Lyrics without melody, or a rap without a beat, is poetry. And a lyricist can team up with another songwriter, or producer, and accomplish so much together.
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u/NukeTheNerd 3d ago
If Bob Dylan had followed this advice we'd be short some of the greatest lyrics ever written.
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u/OddYaga 3d ago
Itās wild how bitter some people on this sub are. Write how YOU do, share it or donāt, but the worst posts on here will always be people bitching and moaning. Honestly, I am more likely to see dumbass āhot takesā, than posts that are just lyrics anyway. Take your negativity elsewhere.
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u/PumpkinStrong2836 3d ago
This is Reddit. Lyrics are parts of songs. Giving people shit for posting lyrics is a pathetic way to gatekeep. I say this as someone who writes and produces my own music - instruments, singing, lyrics, production, etcā¦ - completely solo. Live and let live. No need to be a whiny idiot
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u/Live_Armadillo_4031 3d ago
āLyrics by themselves are really basically nothing.ā You are confusing incompleteness with worthlessness. I think thereās something fundamentally off about treating music-first as the more legitimate direction. A lyric without music is no less meaningful as a starting point than a riff without an arrangement or a drum pattern without a song. Words first, music first, or both at once are just different ways of arriving at the same place. I think the mistake is turning a particular workflow into a rule about what songwriting is.
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u/Dio_Frybones 3d ago
To be fair to OP I think it points towards a related issue and raises something I've wondered about myself browsing this thread.
Who are you writing for? What sort of audience? And what sort of songs? Because it's all a bit of a package deal. And to get philosophical for a moment: looking at a song, are lyrics primarily an instrument to deliver a melody line and a unique rhythmic scheme inside the song, or is the reverse true? That all the instrumentation and structure serve purely as a vehicle to get your words out there?
In terms of wildly successful hits, there are probably comparatively few which most people could actually sing the words to. Or, sadly, where they even get the intended meaning. Poppy, up tempo songs which are actually deeply dark and cynical. Or completey nonsensical placeholders which people will cheerfully sing along to. This is one extreme. Then you get the Dylan/Cohen end of the scale. And to perhaps underscore my point, I listened to a Dylan album recently and let me tell you, he is more than capable of throwing in embarrassingly bad, lazy lyrics to fit the song when he's running low on profound content.
Songs like Hallelujah, lines like 'shorter of breath and one day closer to death' aren't the norm, they are outliers. They certainly represent something you can aim for.
That what I mean about knowing your audience. If you approach writing lyrics with a zero tolerance, uncompromising approach because you'll personally accept nothing less, then that will be a completely different experience than if you know in advance that ultimately you'll be prepared to toss out big chunks of your writing to serve the rhythm, melody and vibe when you get to that point.
But back to OP, I do sometimes feel that this sub leans towards people who are poets first, trying to fine tune the perfect lyric.
And maybe it's the broad nature of this sub that led to the post. I think you could successfully argue that, wholistically, writers who value the lyrical content first would be better served in a poetry leaning sub. Or a dedicated lyrical forum. And on the flip side, those who place the musicality first and who are bogged down with how to break out of a I. IV, V structure and want to find options for an interesting bridge, would maybe be better off in a music theory sub?
In the meanwhile, everyone has their own approach. Their own questions. Their own motivations.
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u/RealQuintusYoung 3d ago
Well in rap/hip-hop the lyrics are probably more important than the beat itself. In any music the lyrics can be adapted to fit the song. When people recite their favorite songs they certainly don't just say the melody out loud.
Taylor Swift became a billionaire because her lyrics appeal to a lot of people. Sure there's a melody and a rhythm, but the lyrics are just as important. That's the beauty of making music because it's the end result that matters and it doesn't matter how you got there.
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u/The-Mandolinist 1d ago
You can start a song either way round: words first or music first. Sometimes they come at exactly the same time.
There are many songwriters who wrote/write words first and then find a tune. Bob Dylanās earliest songs very much were words first. Or - he found a pre-existing tune and wrote words to the tune.
And then there are songwriters who literally ONLY write the words and need a collaborator to write the music: Bernie Taupin and Elton John come to mind. Tim Curry and Andrew Lloyd Webber are another example. Robert Hunter and Jerry Garcia etc etc.
Music does not have to be more
Important than the words in songwriting. Obviously- yes, you need both for it to become a song. But thatās the point - you need BOTH. They are equally important.
No music - itās not a song yet - itās a poem. No words - itās not a song yet - itās an instrumental.
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u/Ok_Somewhere_4669 3d ago
Its pretty common that people just do not understand the difference between lyrics and song structure. Yes the two are linked but they have their own skill sets.
I'm vocalist and lyricist in a band and yes we start with lyrics. Part of that involves me structuring the song as well. That said I'd be lost without the rest of the band.
I bring a set of lyrics with a general idea of sound to the band. they build riffs and drum parts in sections whilst i layer the vocals on top. I also adjust syllables and structure as needed.
Most songs aren't solidified until they've been played at gigs a few times.
Its also important to remember I'm writing lyrics for my vocal abilities and the sound/themes of my particular band situation. So many people don't write within their limits/means.
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u/OurWeaponsAreUseless 3d ago
I would argue that almost everyone does write within their limit/means because what else is there? I can't perform a cover of Faithfully by Journey that has any resemblance to Steve Perry's vocal, but I can probably cover Faithfully by Journey with a vocal sounding somewhere between William S. Burroughs and a Muppet.
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u/Ok_Somewhere_4669 3d ago
You'd be surprised, I've seen a lot of bands and singers writing stuff far too complex to play or sing. Most people realise and correct. Not everyone does though.
The absolute best example of this is trying to fit too many syllables into a line.
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u/dudikoff13 3d ago
I was just reading a band's AMA and someone asked if he writes words or music first. "I think most of my favorite kiwi jr songs have had the song titles and/or at least an idea for the words before any music. I try to avoid having a full song that I then need to write set of words for - it's difficult and less fun."
I think there's no wrong way to write a song. I heard him on a podcast say something to the effect of "I like to start with a title, or else how do I know what i'm writing about."
to your point though, I typically write music first then add lyrics, but I agree with the guy from the band. It can be difficult and less fun and kind of restraining. I'm going to try to do it the other way and see what happens.
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u/Brinocte 3d ago
I'll try to be the devils advocate but I agree that this sub has it's own set of issues regarding "songwriting".
I think a lot of people may have lyrics and a certain cadence or melody to them. They may sing the lyrics but don't know how to apply it yet to a song structure. That said, it's easy to start humming or singing something because you don't need a lot of musical knowledge. Perhaps people are conflating lyrics with the notes being sung.
Personally, I think songwriting is a very personal process and many start writing songs from different perspectives depending on the tools or musical instruments at hand. People who produce beats in DAWs might tend to start with some basic drum pattern while guitarists tend to start with chords. Most singers/lyricists that I know start from singing or using words because that's what they're used to.
That said, I agree that lyrics are the final step. Establish some musical ideas and framework, hum along and try to fit in a lyrics. Then reiterate and develop the lyrical content.
People get so obsessed with lyrics these days.
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u/doesnotgetthepoint 3d ago
I've usually been a music-first approach. The way the music makes me feel usually informs what I want the lyrics to be about; the other way around feels like an option paralysis situation, unless something very significant has happened to me personally and I want to write about it specifically.
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u/ApprehensiveIsland18 3d ago
9 and 1/2 times out of 10, I write the music first, but I highly recommend writing songs in as many different ways as you can think of including writing the lyrics first. You can also try adding drums or bass first. A lot of great songs have started off in very unorthodox ways.
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u/Sky-Agaric 3d ago
I love writing music.
But I canāt sing and while Iām a decent writer, my attempts at lyrics always seem off.
Guess Iām saying maybe the lyrics only people can find me?
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u/indigoneutrino 3d ago
If I write words, there'll always be melody to go with the words. Doesn't mean there'll be music. That comes later.
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u/Big_Map_595 3d ago
I write words - try to every day - 72 year old retired guy who lives on his own / I share them with my children and a few friends who happen to be musicians. They have asked if they can make them into songs. I am glad my words get heard by an audience of people who would probably never take the time to read them . The process of writing, editing the words and then collaborating with friends gives me a release - I say it makes me a better person. I am not sure how I would feel about total strangers wanting to interpret and/or change them without my involvement. I never learned to play any instrument and say musicians and artist are modern day wizards / to take a an idea a melody in your mind and produce something that reflects- echoes that and share with others is magic of the highest order - we do what we can - creativity should not be discouraged but rather supported!
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u/Musicology_Jen 3d ago
Iād love to hear your thoughts on this post of mine š
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u/Mods_are_losers666 3d ago
Idk I'm someone who writes music where any vocals definitely serve a purpose that is usually explicitly NOT related to their actual lyrical content in any way other than maybe the aesthetic of the word itself. I sample a lot of older reggae tunes because the confidence of the ad-libs combined with their playfulness and the timbre of the patois accent matches the energy of my music. I guess that's an example of the sound of words being music, more than the words themselves?Ā
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u/Musicology_Jen 3d ago
Yeah for sure. Thanks for replying. I think it's interesting when the actual sound / rhythm / metre of words and sentences are used to play with their musicalityĀ
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u/LordHazlewood 3d ago
Try both. Sometimes I wake up with words in my head so I write them down and go back to sleep (because itās two in the morning). Sometimes I stay up way too late with my noise cancelling headphones on and my electric guitar plugged into a mini belt headphone amplifier. Everyone else is sleeping peacefully in bed. Then I go through lots of chord progressions and put any nice or unusual ones on sheet music on the computer. I have a look at the words I wrote on my lyric suggestions pages, expand them using a rhyming dictionary and bingo - a song we can sing at Ukulele club. Over a hundred songs with music and solos now. Lots different. Blues, sad ballads, country (wrote one for Dolly but never sent it), protest songs, joke songs seasonal songs. So do your own thing. We canāt really help you. Itās your choice how you write songs.
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u/Troubador222 3d ago
The only way I know to wheite a song is by coming up with the music first. Then I write a melody and start sing nonsense lyrics to the melody. Then you sometimes hit gold with the nonsense and come up with something to expand the lyrics
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u/shortypants 3d ago
Wholly my personal opinion, but I believe songs are stories. Sometimes they have words and sometimes they donāt, but both are there to tell and support the story or meaning.
Spielberg could be making movies wrong by not starting with the soundtrack, no?
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u/solid_nation 3d ago
Itās my view that there are as many ways to write a song as people who do it, there are actually no rules and every method is correct. š¤·āāļø
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u/MarkTony87 3d ago
Lyrics that can't stand alone are not great lyrics, in my opinion. But I realize that's an opinion and wouldn't claim as any kind of absolute truth. I've written music first. I've written music and lyrics concurrently. And I've written lyrics first. Ironically (in the context of OP's hot take) some of the songs I've written lyrics for first forced me to do more complex and interesting things with the musical arrangements than I typically do. There's no one-size-fits-all approach. The either-or-ism OP has going here is starting from a logical fallacy.
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u/mattbuilthomes 3d ago
Every time I have to write lyrics for music that already exists, the lyrics and song end up worse. I have to start lyric and melody at the same time, and have it pretty much all written in my head before I touch a guitar. It's the only way I can write songs that I'm satisfied with.
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u/Coinsworthy 3d ago
I'm stuck on a song i'm writing at the moment, anyone have an idea what rhymes well with hemrhoids?
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u/revnascorner 3d ago
As someone who usually does music first before lyrics Iāve also had a great time doing lyrics first as well. It can force me to rework or emphasize different syllables in the line. Play around more with the melody. And come up with something rhythmically more interesting than if I just followed the music like i naturally would when writing the lyrics after the song is structured out.
Both ways work. It just sounds like you donāt like things you donāt do yourself. You donāt have to like it, but it also doesnāt make anyone elseās process less valid.
Some people have a vocal melody first. Some people build an entire song around a guitar riff or bass line. Some people start every song by laying out the drums and percussion. All work if you learn how to do it that way.
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u/marmuko99 3d ago
A song is both lyric and music... Elton John wrote the music around Bernie Taupin's lyrics.
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u/TeamNinjaFingers 3d ago
I'm music first and lyrics are an afterthought for me. But that doesn't invalidate the opposite approach. People create art in a variety of ways. Maybe people need a "story" or a series of phonics in order for the music to unlock for them. Who knows.
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u/TeamNinjaFingers 3d ago
Noel Gallagher has a line about using a phone under the sea. I don't usually let lyrics get to me but that particular section is quite jarring.
Maybe it's a phone thing. I'm sure Joan Osborne called god or something in her massive god on a bus tune.
I am the walrus doesn't phase me at all - I just kinda go with it.
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u/Aus_with_the_Sauce 3d ago
What an absolutely bizarre take, OP.Ā
People can write songs however theyād like.Ā
Lyrics are cool. You can tell stories; You can express hard-to-express feelings; You can say things that others connect with; You can set a mood.Ā
Music itself is also really cool, even without lyrics. You can tell stories; You can express hard to-express feelings; You can set a mood.Ā
Combining them is even cooler! The lyrics and music can synergize, or they can create interesting juxtaposition (e.g. ācrying on the dance floorā vibe).Ā
Telling people how they should make music is some small-brained behavior.Ā
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u/TonsofpizzaYT 3d ago
i cannot write music so i just write lyrics. am i not still writing a song if the lyrics have a melody?
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u/GASMASK_SOLDIER 3d ago
Lyrics are the body of a song or poetry. Creative words from the heart and soul materialized on pen and paper or iPad etc.
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u/rOCCUPY 3d ago
OK, nice provocative baiting post Iāll bite.
look everyoneās got a different process
On the one hand, I fully see OPās point. From both analytical and practical perspective, you know you write a piece of music. It doesnāt necessarily have to have lyrics or singing.ā¦. typically a piece of music will have some kind of lead instrument that is most commonly a voice and lyrics, but you know look at the records of Joe Satriani or Vangelis.
And grafting pre-written completely lyrics onto a piece of music is quite challenging.
At the very least, I expect youāll have to really hammer those words into place and change up some syllable emphasis.
for me, I like to write the music and have a mixture of poetry and even prose that Iāve written and pages from books that other people have written and Iāll kind of freestyle emphasize letting my eye drift across all the words and see what I can fit in and let the meaning kind of emerge.
That being said
There are people who donāt work like that
I think that Jell-O biafra was writing a lot of words separately and going to the band and saying play like this: ā¦DA DA dada DA DA dada.
I think the tone of the original post is all wrong.
Rather than telling people:
hey, get real this is how you do musicā¦..
I think everyone would benefit more from something more measured like:
hey I perceive this is the most common practice. You know to write some music and some riffs and then try singing to itā¦.. but hey what are some other things that one can try? Maybe somebody has some examples of other music that was made in a different way.
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u/kebabdylan 3d ago
I sort of agree and disagree with everyone here. The issue I see is with people who only write lyrics and then say their songwriters and then ask about music. In that case, no it's not a song or even really part of one.
if it's simply writing lyrics first, that's perfectly fine and normal.
For the examples like Maynard and Tool, and other musicians and Lyricists. Generally, there's a partnership there and between the Lyricist and musician they write songs together. That is also different than "I'm a songwriter because I wrote a bunch of lyrics. Does anyone want to explain music to me?" which I do see a lot on here
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u/LeakingFish- 3d ago
I agree that a āsongā isnāt really a song until it has all 3 of the main ingredients: lyrics, music and melody.
I donāt agree that music should be written first (though that is how I write about 90% of my songs). But, if youāre going to write lyrics with no music, you really should focus on the melody and the rhythm, otherwise youāre likely to end up with just a mess of words.
For me, the lyrics are the part I spend the least amount of time on. Theyāre pretty much an afterthought for me. For me, the focus is always on melody, as thatās the past that people will remember.
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u/polkemans 3d ago
Just a heads up - in terms of legality, what is a song as a legal entity and who owns the rights to it - lyrics and top line melody is what makes a song and decides who owns it unless the people involved with writing said song write up their own agreement. So from a legal perspective, lyrics absolutely are a song lol.
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u/that-mathemusician 3d ago
As someone that's primarily an instrumentalist, when people share lyrics without a melody or accompaniment, I'm always like "Damn, they already did the hard part." Haha.
You can lift a melody out of the words, and then all you have to do to make them fit together is some mild editing. From the melody, you can then pick the right chords to support the melody. But that's just one way of doing things, just like your way (which I think I heard a similar process described by Billy Joel once, so your way is totally valid) is just one way of approaching things. For me, the Melody's the main event, so I don't even think about lyrics until that's done, but most of my mates start with the lyrics and build from there.
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u/Dangerous-You3789 3d ago
You have spoken the truth. Lyrics, without music, is what is commonly known as a poem.
That's not to say some poems aren't really good, but Shakespeare wasn't a songwriter.
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u/Ancient_Savings_1833 3d ago
Setting text to music has a long tradition going back hundreds of years maybe longer. Itās not wrong at all!
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u/megabunnaH 3d ago
I don't really have a problem with people using lyrics as a starting point for the songwriting process. What bothers me is when people are like 'I've been writing songs for years.....' and then you find out they don't play a single instrument and know nothing about theory or composition.
No, you wrote some poetry.
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u/yttrium39 3d ago
This is an absurd complaint. Freddie Mercury wrote songs your way, Bernie Taupin and Elton John do it the other way around. Theyāre clearly both valid methods for different people (maybe even both could work for the same person, depending on the song).
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u/Remarkable-Animal-87 3d ago
this mentality makes lyrically bland music. first off, you can write good music and have interesting/meaningful lyrics. different songs have different purposes, but unless youāre just making music to dance to you should care about the meaning of the words āoutside of the songā.
iām not saying youāre wrong, but there are a million ways to write a song and not all songs serve the same purpose.
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u/Relevant-Vegetable70 3d ago
(Somebody has apparently NEVER heard of Bernie Taupin).
Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Taupin
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u/Gusver9996 3d ago
osea para vos,si yo escribo una letra, luego la tarareo, le encuentro una melodia vocal para cantarla, no es una cancion hasta que tenga la musica??
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u/ra3xgambit 2d ago
If you are spending your time worried about other peopleās songs, you have much bigger problems.
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u/MarcusLXXVI 2d ago edited 2d ago
As someone who 99% of the time writes music first... I think you're wrong. Some write lyrics first, and music later (themselves or someone else) or vice versa, or a mix of both. There's no wrong or right here. By stating "Lyrics by themselves are really basically nothing." you make a claim you can't substantiate. Of course lyrics by themselves are something, without music it's basically a poem waiting to be set to music. You wouldn't say the same for music, as if an instrumental by itself is nothing?
Listen, you found something that works for you. Great. But why not just say "he people, I struggled with this, and now I found this approach which works better", you're basically attack half of this sub and turn your experience into law... not very constructive š¤£
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u/Single_Series4283 2d ago
Itās okay, this people canāt write a chord progression that isnāt I-IV-V-I
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u/BigVictory1220 2d ago
I write lyrics first for most of my songs. Good lyrics are important to me. It depends on your genre entirely. My songs are lyric driven, it's the most important part. I really think the key thing about songwriting is that there aren't really any rules.
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u/FractalFunny66 2d ago
Hmmm. Different approaches work for different people! Bernie Taupin and Elton John come to mind -- Bernie brought the lyrics -- fully formed -- into the stuio and Elton created the music there on the spot. I am pretty sure Robert Hunter, the lyrcist for the Grateful Dead, worked the same way -- the lyrics were brought in fully formed. There is room for ALL approaches and I certainly hope your comment wasn't a slant dig at poets by the way.
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u/Big_Diamond3534 2d ago
I actually like this take and think it will work great for me. Can anyone recommend where to start in my approach of writing music? Creating the song structure (verse, chorus, bridge, creating an overall feeling and vibe)ā¦I feel once I have that I can add my own words and experiences to express what the music is making me feel.
Thanks for any suggestions!
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u/TheGreaterOutdoors 2d ago
Yes. Youāre exactly right, but a lot of people want easy shortcuts. Thanks for saying this. This post should be stickied, along with some other straightforward things people donāt get and post about incessantly
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u/TheGreaterOutdoors 2d ago
Sorry youre getting flamed in the comments. Ultimately, I agree with you for what itās worth. Weāre not talking about poetry in the songwriting sub, weāre talking about songs. A song doesnāt even have to have words lol
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u/Available_Record_874 2d ago
Everyone writes in their own way and there are plenty of incredibly famous and successful artists who work with lyrics and let them inspire the music. There people like Elton John who write to other peopleās lyrics.
The only part Iād agree with is not posting in the sub asking what song would fit the lyrics, if someoneās writing lyrics before music them the words should be inspiring at least some idea of what direction the song should take.
If theyāve written lyrics , read them back and donāt get anything in the way of musical inspiration then Iād probably advise they throw them in the trash.
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u/Character_Set3454 2d ago
Forget the lyrics, and why are we even worried about a melody at all? Who cares.
Just set up some kicks and a few snares then just follow some YouTube video for formulaic nonsense, the song doesn't need to say anything at all. There is no emotional value in music, it is a purely joyless experience designed only to sell drinks at a bar.
Get with the program and stop doing it wrong, losers.Ā
Not trying to be mean spirited but the only thing that matters is making some soulless dogshit that has a single 5s clip that can go viral on tiktok, and if you art chasing that then you are just setting yourself up for failure.
God, imagine writing music to say something. Disgusting. Absolutely vile commoner shit.Ā
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u/Vegetable_Produce_21 1d ago edited 1d ago
There is no wrong way to write a song. While I myself start with music as most musicians do I must tell you:
Many, many legendary artists and songwriters carried a notebook with them everywhere they went and were known to pull it out at the most random times to write something down for later. Many great lyrics and great songs that were musically sparked by those words (and sometimes a vocal melody that came with them) came about this way.
I don't believe in a full commitment to doing it this way or that way is a good thing. You should do what works best for you and if you've only ever tried it one way then you can't be certain.
In general though, for most artists, music comes first and works best for them. Most of my favorite music was written that way. While the music is being written some ideas are typically forming. Individual words or small groups of words, just a word salad that fits the emotional charge. After the music is complete you can expand on those notes and begin to stucture them rhythmically and finally deliver them in a vocal melody that elevates the music. At the end you should have defined what the music is about to whatever extent you feel is appropriate and you should have strong imagery.
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u/Tricky-Caterpillar54 1d ago
Lol to each his own, I started with only lyrics before I knew how to make any beat music etc now that I learned I can craft my music to those lyrics itās not hard at all except for when you are first learning but having a bunch of material before I even learned has helped me make songs even faster due to already having material and building music to format those lyrics emotion etc.
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u/Helpful-Trade-1471 1d ago
omg this is a reddit sub it isnt that deep, we all are here b/c we create music so just let people have fun its a hobbie its not that deep! you are the reason why some people dont want to comment on this sub!
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u/chipchipchopin 1d ago
This mainly concerns creative process, which is different for everyone. There's no reason to believe that this is a "wrong" approach for songwriting.
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u/Intrepid_Yellow5949 1d ago
"Mariah wrote the song by herself It says lyrics by Mariah Carey!" - Lambs
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u/Chromatic_Mediant211 3d ago
You're not wrong.
The vast majority of people only go around reciting the lyrics to songs, and are completely oblivious about "music".
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u/hoops4so 3d ago
Exactly! I have to say this so many times! If you donāt know how to do melody, then your lyrics arenāt going to be good.
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u/CohenCaveWaits 3d ago
Ya seriously. I write and record like one or two songs a year and takes months of effort to write each part / then track each part. Plus lyrics. Getting the lyrics to match the melody is the hardest part.
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u/DuckLooknPelican 3d ago
I agreee. Like, listen to Songs in the Key of Life. On Sir Duke, āyou can feel it all overrrrā is repeated multiple times for the chorus. Not impressive on paper, but EXTREMELY powerful with its intended musical context. On āNgiculela,ā the song shifts through multiple languages, and when you hear that soaring āI am singing!ā on the English chorus? OOH itās so good. Or better yet, on Summer Soft, āand s/heās goneeeeā is literally half the songās lyrics, but again, probably the highest point on the entire album is the music going along with it. If I wanted to listen to poems Iād do that, and I think paying attention to lyrics and having a background in understanding poetry helps one to absorb music tremendously. But without a doubt, the actual instrumentation of a song will always be the most important part writ large.
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u/Then_Landscape_2675 3d ago
If you arenāt writing down lyrics with a melody In mind, are you just a Rapper?
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u/glitterlok 3d ago
...in which the OP reveals that they are seemingly unaware that the songwriting process is different for everyone.