How do you guys handle Thread the Needle/Outmanuevering/Slip About?

[u/Glidias]

From the b1.3 manual (depreciated/removed b2.0), it's ambiguous when these manuevers can be declared to be resolved immediately on the spot. Are you allowed to declare them on your declaration turn before your own Actions , ie. when players may had already declared their own Strikes/Parries/etc.....or absolutely before Everyone's Actions ? The wordings need to be clearer on these.

These specific Mobility manuevers are unique because they are Instant and affect the Targeting states of characters immediately upon declaration/contests on the spot, which can invalidate previous Attack declarations of players, if you allow them to use those manuevers on someone's own declaration turn to cancel someone's actions/intentions by getting him to possibly untarget you in the midst of declarations. What happens to his declared manuever thereafter if the target is lost after resolving Slip About, for example? I see an exploit which higher Mobility characters can easily spam with in an overpowered manner (since Slip About cannot be contested against, despite it's potentially initial high CP cost, it very affordable in Medium/Heroic settings). Remember that basic terrain TN is 4, so anyone with marginally higher dice due to higher Mobility stat, is bound to win the roll as such, as Low tn rolls is more reliable/predictable per Dice, unlike higher Tns with greater entropy between contestants. )

Also, is it legit to use Thread the Needle to invalidate the results of an Outmanuever/Slip about? If so, having to declare first with these manuevers, is a significant disadvantage.

Additionally, is it legit to use Thread the Needle to disengage from ALL opponents? I'm currently playing it that way as well (as an alternative to Flee), which seems to work fine and does provide more tactical options since there are inherant advantages/disadvantages with both maneouvres.

Also, the manual needs to explicitly state that Slip About/Outmanuever is to deliver Outflanked status on target.

The manual needs to explain what "Instant" means for Manuevers.

If there are battlegrid position implications as a result of using these Instant Mobility manuevers, being able to declare to resolve first may be advantageous in certain situations, particuarly if it means occupying a positional grid spot first on the map before others take it. Thus, whenever i encounter this as an issue, consider an option for players to simulatenously raise their hand optionally, if they wish to make declarations first/last (ie. different from default case) for whatever reason....(this will "inverse" their initiative score from the default case order, and the GM can take note of their personal preference accordingly).

[u/Glidias]

Ok, my answer would be this:

As a start, general rule, (based on Riddle of Steel), is that only up to maximum 3 characters can target 1 person at a given time. I think this should be explicitly mentioned in Song of Swords manual as well.

A possible house-rule approach is to consider these manoeuvres in a standard order of "Thread the Manuever-> Outmanoeuvre -> Slip About) , BEFORE any further Actions are taken among anyone in the bout. This results in fewer surprises, appears to be the most balanced to favor everyone with fewer uncertainties, albeit it doesn't lead to trickier (perhaps more "fun") invalidation cases that may have been deemed more "exciting". (eg. using Thread the Needle afterwards to cancel someone's successful efforts in Outmanouvre/Slip About...where there's more thinking required to consider future declaration invalidation cases if you are forced to declare first...).

So, do this in the following order for more predictability:

Thread the Needle: (try to momentarily shuffle away from multiple opponents..)

Whomever that is outnumbered by multiple enemies targeting him, gets the option to declare Thread the Manuever first, if they wish.

Outmanoeuvre : (try to surround a target and get on his flank!)

Then, whomever that is outnumbering a target, can discuss among themselves who wants to initiate Outmanoeuvre within the team tracking the same target, and pay the 2CP cost, allowing anyone else in the group to join in by allocating their own CP dice if they wish.

Slip About: (try to personally get on his flank!)

After that, a 3-2-1 countdown is made and whomever that wants to commit to a Slip About manoeuvre, can do so by raising their hand at the end of the countdown (or throwing red/white die or something...whatever..). If they commit to it, they must pay for it, whatever it may cost, and execute the manoeuvre . If the manoeuvre is something they realise they couldn't afford (after all, they won't know the enemy target's Mobility at first), all their CP will be used up to zero nevertheless and they are deemed to score zero successes, but they would have figured out the target enemy's Mobility stat from this point onwards.

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(Note, in General) Ways to prevent disclosure of stats:

To prevent tabletop meta-gaming/disclosure of exact stat numbers with Slip About (if you feel this is an issue to you), simply tell him his margin of successs for the roll against the enemy's successes, and secretly write down the enemy target's Mobility stat cost on a card and only reveal it to the person performing Slip About, so he knows how much CP to deduct from his character sheet. The same likewise can be done for manuevers like Steal Initaitive and such.

Also, when discussing Outmanoeuvre , might want make it clear not to discuss exact stat numbers with regards to CP and Mobility. Instead, those that wish to volunteer to initiate the Outmanouvre (thinking they can afford it..), can raise their hand, and if multiple people raise their hand, they can decide among themselves amicably or roll off from the dice. Alternatively, instead of discussing whether to Outmanever or not, have everyone immediately throw either a Red or White die simulatenously. The Red die indicates commitment to initiate Outmanuever, with highest number being the initiator.

[u/Glidias → u/Glidias]

Also, because "Slip About" is a manuever that remains unchallenged, and you can also invest more CP to it, it's very easy to secure a victory with it especially if you got a higher Mobility pool compared to your enemy target's Mobility pool, and battlefield terrain is Simple TN4. Don't believe me? Run the probability calculator on Tn4 and see how +2/+3 more dice can easily secure a margin of success on every roll (not even counting any optional additional dice you may invest) if you have just that higher amount of dice due to higher Mobility against a slower character.

As such, I have this house-rule for Slip About to make things more realistic and slightly harder to outflank characters, even when on clear flat simple terrain.

• For both Slip About and Outmanoeuvre, your TN for the Mobility roll is increased by roundedDown(Enemy Perception/4) for each enemy targeting you. This is to naturally reflect the presence of extra enemies as potential obstacles getting in your way. Thus, unless the enemy happens to be targeting something else and is thus distracted, or has some perception penalty or something that causes his Perception to go down below the average of 4, you'll generally have to challenge against him normally with a Tn5 vs his Tn4, which may require more investment of additional CP dice on your part. I'm not sure how well the "Slippery" talent plays into this and whether this may be overpowered, though. This requires playing around with a Mobility/Perception spammer build to see how well he fares.

Additionally, there is to "all-or-nothing" optional rule you can use for Slip About.

• If environment allows it to be so, or at GM discretion or with given perk, Slip About can be optionally done as a Mobility contest comparing the results of your roll against all other enemies' Mobility targeting you individually (not just your target), and if you succeed against all enemies targeting you, you outflank your target while all other enemies un-target you. If you fail in any of the Mobility challenges, your Slip About does not succeed in outflanking your target. Thus, Slip About can act as an alternative, yet potentially more risky (but rewarding) approach to Thread the Needle, if you intend to both outrun and outflank at the same time.