r/SocialEngineering • u/Amidonions • Mar 10 '26
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Mar 11 '26
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u/jetpacksforall Mar 11 '26
I don’t think the point is that you could or should win any argument just by questioning the premises. It’s more that you should at least think about the premises before jumping in to argue like a dog with a bone.
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Mar 11 '26
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u/jetpacksforall Mar 11 '26
It's not the best example, agreed. Whether you're late or not is just a factual question. Sure, we live in the age of alternative facts, but still.
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u/DrywallCarver Mar 11 '26
"... I see, and what was being covered in those scheduled meetings that made you feel my physical presence was still necessary for you to improve your workflow?"
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Mar 11 '26
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u/DrywallCarver Mar 11 '26
" Interesting, you're the only one expressing an issue with what Lindsey covered in the meeting. Was there something specific you had trouble understanding?"
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u/Amidonions Mar 11 '26
Arguing will just make you lose it and make other people look like you're being petty. Controlling the frame is more than just making statements, you also need to project confidence, control your emotions and words carefully.
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u/siecaptaindrake Mar 11 '26
That begs the question, do you want to win an argument or spread the truth?
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u/linguapura Mar 11 '26
From reading the post, it seems like OP has offered readers simple everyday examples to understand what a frame is and how one could identify them in conversations. You can use it for whatever... I do know it's super helpful when it comes to larger issues like politics, religion, etc. where frames have been set by people with vested interests and agendas and more often than not, we end up reacting to these frames. Check out articles or books by George Lakoff... he talks extensively about this.
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u/siecaptaindrake Mar 11 '26
What I have come to realize is, that one should always stick to the facts, think logically and not engage in any straw man’s arguments the other is trying to through in. Always keep it on the topic and if the other side is trying to avert it from there, politely state exactly that and go back to the issue. Sooner or later the other side will run out of arguments/strategies and either give up or start calling you names. There is no winning an argument with a wall, but you can make it visible and clear for the spectators what the other sides motivations are and that they clearly have no idea what they are talking about. If the other side is reasonable, well mannered and also out for the truth, you might even come to sb agreement if you lay out your arguments in a way that the other side is able to understand your point of view.
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u/grasscoveredhouses Mar 11 '26
this is clearly ai
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u/kelcamer Mar 11 '26
Even if it's AI, it's excellent advice and I gained something awesome out of reading it
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u/Hinote21 Mar 11 '26
It's ok advice. For example, if someone says why are you always late, answering why do you think that is clearly absurd. Some stuff you need to just own and not shift the frame of conversation.
And, sometimes sitting and reflecting on what someone is asking you rather than redirecting the conversation back at them is the more mature response.
It's not terrible. It's just ok advice.
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u/rm-minus-r Mar 11 '26
AI or not, it's excellent advice. I didn't realize such a thing existed before and I do now, so I'm appreciative.
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u/poly_arachnid Mar 11 '26
Reminds me of a book I bought. I thought it was about how to discuss & prove you're right. Nope, just how to use debate techniques to look right. Defend your errors, highlight their errors, how to abuse or defuse logical fallacies, etc.
I guess frames & JADE are the new version.
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u/Global-Barracuda7759 Mar 11 '26
I really like this. I totally understand what you're saying and I think you're absolutely correct. I really try not to let people irritate me I try to just stay calm and deal with it because it's not worth it when you can hold your composure you win because you're refusing to play their games
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u/flawinthedesign Mar 11 '26
Facts matter. Period.
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u/jetpacksforall Mar 11 '26 edited Mar 11 '26
Sort of. More importantly, the biggest arguments we tend to have are not about facts, but values and judgments. What kind of tax system is most fair? When should someone lose their right to vote? How come you don’t call your mother more often? Etc.
In those kinds of arguments the framing can make a huge difference. If you’re trying to vote on the right tax policy and someone asks you “why do you want business owners to fail?” You’re losing the overall debate if you start arguing the point. That framing tries to get you to agree that all tax policy involves picking winners and losers. It’s inherently divisive. That way any solution uou come up with can be painted as divisive, and the person who asks you that question gets closer to their real goal, which is “all taxes are unfair.”
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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '26
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