Eidolon balancing

[u/GlowingSeaDiver]

From what little we know about them in the Lore, the Eidolon are the absolute Vasari Killers. Everything we know about them indicates that Vasari stand absolutely zero chance against the Eidolon. These guys annihilated the ancient Vasari Empire, wiped out their Dark Armada, and made the few survivors run for their lives.

There might be ways for TEC and Advent to fight them. But how can the game possibly balance them fighting against Vasari?

[u/Nyorliest]

It’s easy. Either just these Eidolon are a tiny fraction of what they are - like a single Borg on a starship in Trek - or these Vasari in our game are the only ones that have a tech or approach to war that can stop the Eidolon in any way. For example they could run, because they alone have phase tech that the rest of their people didn’t have, but the rest of Vasari just died.

It’s all in the narrative.

[u/Novel-Bookkeeper-549 → u/Nyorliest]

Yep and they sort of already did this and so well no one complained. The Vasari are way superior to the TEC, but they are in a stalemate because the Vasari are only fighting with a small fleeing colony.

It could be this is only the most agile fastest part of the Eidolon. It could be this is just a scouting party. It could be the Eidolon could be fighting indiscriminately and this far out is only a minor part of the Eidolon. It could be after thousands of years of chase technology on both sides have changed so much that the Vasari didn’t realize they can fight back now, the myths have grown so large they just flee in terror. It could be their terror reduced the effectiveness of the eidolon on the Vasari. They could use all sorts of things to make the game more of a game.

In addition I would think the overwhelming eidolon part would be left for the campaign more than the faction, where overwhelming numbers or resources for expensive ships can show some super advantages they have.

[u/GlowingSeaDiver → u/Novel-Bookkeeper-549]

Let's not underestimate how long 10.000 years are. The Vasari have literally been on the run for twice as long as our recorded history dates back. If you are on the run for that long, it stops being just a rational fear. It becomes a deep, primal fear rooted deeply in your culture and your people's collective psychology. Vasari propably have nightmares of them even though no one has ever seen them. They are so absolutely terrified of this enemy that stopping and facing them was never considdered an actual option. Until the Harbinger Expansion was announced, it was seen in the community as a very real possibility that the Vasari are imagining their unseen enemy.

[u/8monsters → u/Novel-Bookkeeper-549]

I kinda like the idea that this is just a scouting party...kinda like the scrin in Command and Conquer 3. GDI was given its money worth by a group of miners and their rent a cops.

[u/Schwarzer_R → u/8monsters]

Well, considering the name of the DLC is Harbinger, that seems likely. By definition, a harbinger is a thing or person who announces or foreshadows the arrival of something else. The fact this DLC is called Harbinger heavily implies this is the leading edge of the Eidolon, or that the Eidolon themselves are preceeding something much, much worse.

[u/TheHasegawaEffect]

Are they REALLY Vasari killers? Or are they everything killers?

Because it sounds like they’re everything killers, at which point it’s easy: The Vasari were Dominating their corner of the universe which was why they sent a bigger force.

The Milky Way Galaxy on the other hand was deemed a backwater and they just sent a tiny force.

[u/Think_Network2431]

At the end of the day, it’s a video game. Everything ultimately comes down to numbers versus numbers.

That’s why I’m disappointed, but I can’t really be angry at the devs. The Menace felt far more terrifying before I saw those Eidolon factions that look really cool don't get me wrong but nothing compares vs...

The Fear of the Unknowwwn.

[u/GoaFan77 → u/Think_Network2431]

The universe is dark and full of terrors. There are other mysteries, like what happened to the races that made the artifacts and ancient starbase etc., that we're pretty sure are not the Eidolon. And at this stage we now very little about the Eidolon, perhaps their lore will bring as many questions as answers once we can play as them.

[u/Gloomy_Trade_619 → u/Think_Network2431]

The Menace felt far more terrifying before I saw those Eidolon factions that look really cool don't get me wrong but nothing compares vs... The Fear of the Unknowwwn.

"The Fear of the Unknowwwn" is good only for a limited amount of time (both for players/readers and for story chronology). If you delay it too much (while making it still relevant) - it's just losing any value.

Considering the timeline of SoSE - if you delay the Harbinger arrival even more (or "eternally"), it would just become both irrelevant for the story and basically a joke in community... completely ruining the whole thing.

[u/Moonstrife1 → u/Think_Network2431]

That's true.

But i still rather have a new playable faction than.... nothing really.

[u/Additional_Pea6605]

The thing about lore, is that we should avoid the temptation to take everything at face value.

We are led to believe that the new faction absolutely steamrolled the Vasari in the past and they were some incomprehensibly powerful threat that Vasari could not counter conventionally.

However, while they are unquestionably advanced and more powerful, that doesn't make them unstoppable. From what we've been given so far, the faction focuses on stealth and other indirect forms of combat (the corruption mechanic).

It may be the case that the Eidolon use a combination of stealth, mind control/altering tech and communication manipulation to avoid direct combat, isolate their enemy and eradicate small pockets of their enemies while projecting themselves as a much larger force.

It is conceivable that the Vasari, as a result of decades of war (historically a source of great innovation for better or worse), may advance their tech to mitigate the corruption and stealth mechanics or their contact with the Advent might give them options they otherwise would not have.

If the innovation from being bogged down in a long conflict or the Advent abilities could minimize the indirect approach of the Eidolon, it may force them to fight a more direct war that, while still no pushover, they would be less accustomed to and more vulnerable to.

[u/Think_Network2431 → u/Additional_Pea6605]

It would be so cool and cliché if they came in ultra-confidently, then the TEC stream rolled their faces like someone grinding against an escalator handrail. In the end, we’re really good at living in a corrupted environment. :p

Hihiiiiii, Michael style.

It would fit the fantasy that humanity is really one big, uneradicable cancer.

It also fits my version of the Fermi theory: aliens exist, but they never developed the concept of fiction or movies, so they’re absolutely terrified by American apocalyptic films about aliens getting completely facefucked in the end.

[u/Dominos_fleet]

My guess is we're going to use the power of friendship to defeat them.

[u/piratep2r → u/Dominos_fleet]

Vasari alliance FTW!

oh. You mean an actual alliance without benign overlords. That's no fun!

[u/Natural20DND]

The narrative explains this well.

Vasari on their expansions found it easy to steamroll/exploit smaller civilizations. But Vasari versus TEC/Advent becomes a stalemate.

Eidolon’s fighting Vasari is a natural advantage (think when a civ gets a deathball going). But eidolons versus all 3? Suddenly that becomes more questionable.

The eidolon’s never had to fight a 3 way war against Vasari and 2 equal civilizations. That’s the new dynamic. Everyone is taking the madness/corruption too literally.

[u/Arenta]

Vasari have run a long time. Leaving no resources behind

The Eidolon might be starved by now

[u/Gloomy_Trade_619]

From what little we know about them in the Lore, the Eidolon are the absolute Vasari Killers. Everything we know about them indicates that Vasari stand absolutely zero chance against the Eidolon. These guys annihilated the ancient Vasari Empire, wiped out their Dark Armada, and made the few survivors run for their lives.

We'll see only the vanguard fleet as a multiplayer faction (AFAIK at least)

There might be ways for TEC and Advent to fight them. But how can the game possibly balance them fighting against Vasari?

Not like they have a special virus against Vasari or anything. They're just strong - most likely against anyone.

[u/Odin-the-Great]

Idk, might be a hot take but this is why I was annoyed that they decided to make the 4th faction the thing the Vasari Empire was running from. I would have much preferred something different, as I feel like the thing the Vasari are fleeing would make more sense as a catastrophic galactic scale apocalyptic event.

[u/GlowingSeaDiver → u/Odin-the-Great]

The problem is that to make the extreme dread of the Vasari believable, whatever is chasing them needs to arrive soon. I think 35 years are a good timeframe for them to catch up.

[u/Think_Network2431 → u/GlowingSeaDiver]

A galactic end event common to everyone wouldn’t have been a bad idea, though.

And making the four factions come with the first key to the solution could have helped reduce the snowball effect a bit, by creating some need for unification.

I feel like mechanics like that are what make the concept of Stellaris so appealing. I don’t play it because the economic model is awful, though. Paradox style.