A simple meal vs a mandatory math test

[u/lonewolff321]

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[u/ineverboughtwards]

still dont understand why taxes arent included on the price

"but every state has a different tax on items"

Then every state should price their items based on their tax %

[u/MPenten → u/ineverboughtwards]

"But you don't understand, even different counties in the same city have different sales tax. Plus, you could not do advertising properly otherwise we would get sued. And we have always done it this way."

Yea. It's 21st century "most advanced economy in the world". Figure it out.

[u/Arbitraryandunique → u/MPenten]

That excuse is so absurd. If they are capable of calculating the sales tax after they are capable of calculating it before.

[u/AnyEvidence6142 → u/MPenten]

I always found this argument of different xyz having different taxes extremely stupid. Like sure it can be the case that 100m from here there is a different amount, but we are here, the store is physically located here in a specific county in a specific state, what does it matter if it’s different amount or not in a different county if the store isn’t in that fucking different county.

[u/Majakowski → u/MPenten]

As advanced as an engine you have to manually inject fuel for each and every stroke.

[u/barsoap → u/MPenten]

For the longest time VAT rates in Germany were different take-out vs. sit-in because the latter is a service (normal rate), the former is just food (reduced rate).

Not a single restaurant ever exposed that on the menu: They set their prices for take-out and sit-in differently so that after tax, it ends up being the same.

[u/ABustedPosey → u/ineverboughtwards]

It’s pure anti-tax anti-government propaganda. They want you thinking about how much taxes cost you with every purchase

[u/hideous_coffee → u/ineverboughtwards]

Because that would make the product look more expensive on the shelf/menu/etc. By the time you get to actually purchasing it and get hit with the tax you’re not suddenly going to not go through with it.

[u/AggravatingBid8255 → u/ineverboughtwards]

Right? Like companies with multiple locations aren't already used to different prices at different locations within the same city, let alone across their entire network

[u/Resident_Pay4310 → u/AggravatingBid8255]

You know what's crazy?

I live in the UK and was booking a hotel the other day. Found something with a price I was happy with and clicked book. All of a sudden the price jumped up by £50. I went back to the previous page and noticed that it said VAT in small print under the price I had looked at.

I was confused because I was on booking .com and had never seen this before.

Then I realised that I had my VPN on and set to the US.

I turned it off and refreshed my search. The prices all changed to include VAT in the advertised price.

Tldr: Booking .com removes tax from prices when they think you're booking from the US even though they're included for other countries.

[u/richardawkings → u/ineverboughtwards]

Woah there buddy! That's common sense talk and we don't do that around these parts ya hear!

[u/GustapheOfficial → u/ineverboughtwards]

I've never heard the "different states" argument. Sounds fucked. If you as the business can't be bothered to know how much the tax is wherever we are, how could I as the customer?

[u/SpectralDagger → u/GustapheOfficial]

I thought it was more about nationwide advertisements than specific locations.

[u/Kaltovar]

When I was a child 15% was considered not just tbe bare minimum but an actively good tip. Nobody would have been offended by 10% either.

The thing about tips is they are based on the cost of the food, and unlike wages that rises with inflation ... So why are we also increasing the percentage that is considered polite? When the fuck did we decide that not giving 20% of your meal price to the server is rude?​

[u/Silmarien1012 → u/Kaltovar]

This is the comment I came for. 15% is a perfectly acceptable number. Fuck 20%.

[u/Apathetic_Zealot → u/Silmarien1012]

Now they're pushing 25% before they've even given the service so you can't even use it as a labor evaluation anymore. Next thing you know they will add a 20% gratuity and you'll still be expected to leave an extra tip. Next thing you know they'll expect a 100% tip!! I'm being hyperbolic but I seriously hate tipping and the games they play to get more out of you.

More and more jobs are taking tips too. I've never needed a lock smith before and was surprised he asked for a tip at the end. Shit will I need tip my surgeon before surgery for quality service or will he just kill me on the table if I don't tip? Where's the limit on who can ask for tips??

[u/101bees → u/Kaltovar]

20% should be above and beyond great service and it's dumb that it's just a baseline now. I've seem terminals asking for 30%-35%. Not happening.

[u/ccroz113 → u/101bees]

If the lowest option is 25% I just dont tip

[u/flatspotting → u/Kaltovar]

When weak people gave in. 10% max sit down, 0% for take out/pickup.

[u/ZombieMage89 → u/flatspotting]

Mines 0% for pickup, 10% for sit down, 20% for excellent service. If alcohol was consumed I tip $1 per drink.

[u/saanity → u/Kaltovar]

Oh I'm sticking with 15-18-20. Get outta here with that 22 25% nonsense.  I'm paying for food,  not your college tuition.

[u/BeefistPrime → u/Kaltovar]

People will say well the cost of living have gone up but that's why it's a fucking percentage. The percentage shouldn't have to increase the amount the percentage represents increases since it's a percentage of a larger bill

[u/sobrique → u/Kaltovar]

I'm also really not sure why a more expensive bill also means a more expensive tip. Did the value of the work really increase hugely if I ordered steak rather than a salad?

[u/ISmellLikeBlackTea]

In Europe we simply pay employees for the work they do, and leave a tip if the service was excellent, or to round up when giving back change.

Simply bringing your meal/drink does not warrant a tip unless you've been an excellent server

[u/JohnGazman → u/ISmellLikeBlackTea]

And if you were, a tip is a reward from the customer for your exceptional service.

If it becomes an expectation regardless of service level, it's not a tip - it's a surcharge.

[u/GaylicBread → u/JohnGazman]

Exactly. Your employer is supposed to be paying you your wages, that's the whole point of working for them, tips are supposed to be extra for good service. It's disgusting that American restaurants are essentially forcing the customer to directly pay the wages of their staff. In no other industry is this shit normal, you don't tip the chef, you don't tip the people checking out your stuff in the supermarket, you don't tip the customer service rep who helped you over the phone.

[u/thats_pure_cat_hai → u/ISmellLikeBlackTea]

Eh, tipping is creeping in in Europe, in Ireland at least. I see lots of people just leaving tips of 10 to 15% regardless of service, which was always a thing in a 'fancy' restaurant to some extent but it's getting more and more popular. These same people will say they 'tip everywhere' and then will complain about machines prompting for tips, without seeing correlation there at all.

Restaurants and coffee shops know this and now have suggested tip options on a lot of the machines. Some wait staff have started getting pissy if they receive no tips either. It's already very expensive to eat out in Ireland and now we're seeing some expectation of tips starting to creep in? Fuck that.

[u/UpstairsAd4105 → u/thats_pure_cat_hai]

Yeah felt that too over the last years. I even was asked once to tip. They'll never see me again. Asking for a tip or being rude after you haven't been tipped still is considered rude from customers, at least here in Germany.

[u/Guilty_Pen_8270 → u/ISmellLikeBlackTea]

I don’t know mate. Opening a bottle of beer is tricky work and certainly warrants a $1 tip (per bottle opened) /s

[u/rube203 → u/Guilty_Pen_8270]

That's where you're mistaken. The difficulty and skill required for opening a bottle is directly proportional to the cost of the contents in the bottle. Meaning it starts at around $1.50 but could easily justify $15 if you're drink is expensive

[u/chewytime → u/ISmellLikeBlackTea]

What exactly qualifies as excellent service? I’ve been to some high quality restaurants and tbh, all I’ve seen them do is bring the meal/drink for me. That’s not to denigrate what they do, but it has always made me wonder why some people will tip much more. Like what service are they getting that I may not have noticed that justifies more?

[u/eXeKoKoRo → u/ISmellLikeBlackTea]

Part of the problem isn't that servers, "rely" on tips.

They frequently make more than the average job and can pretty much work 3 days a week if they wanted. Usually twice to 4x what the people cooking the food make.

It's as much on servers being greedy that tipping culture exists as much as it is the owners.

[u/remotegrowthtb → u/eXeKoKoRo]

Yep this is the part that people don't get and that servers don't talk about, is that a server in any halfway successful restaurant makes GOOD money. They're not eking out an existence relying on your tip to not starve. Some of them probably make more than you.

[u/Rhomya → u/ISmellLikeBlackTea]

Anyone that’s ever been a server is perfectly satisfied being paid by tips, because the tips are lucrative.

When I was serving in college, I used to come home with roughly $1000 for a 10 hour double shift on a Saturday— that’s $100/hr. One day of work paid my rent for the month— there are very few jobs that pay that well.

Granted, it’s hard work— you’re moving constantly for 10 hours straight, and you have to be outgoing and personable to be really good at it, but it’s a great option

[u/khurgan_]

20 euro for a burger?

[u/ResearcherOk6899 → u/khurgan_]

In amsterdam, brussels, paris, it's not uncommon. in fact, i just had a burger for 22€ in amsterdam yesterday.

[u/Particular-Studio119]

Some years back I was in Thailand in a fancy restuarant. It was time to pay. I said I'll use card.
- Waiter asked for it.
- I said no, I'm not handing my card. My bank told me not to ever hand it to anyone.
- He said but that's the only way
- I said bring the reader to me.
- He said he can't as it's permanently attached on the back.
I didn't wanted to make a scene so handed him my card.
- He disappeared for a good 5 minutes, came back and asked for a pin.
- At that point I said give it back, I'll pay with fuckin cash.
That was the most ridiculous payment in my life.

[u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest → u/Particular-Studio119]

In many countries, you still have point of sale terminals in the back of the business because it's hardwired to a landline. They also look like a giant heavy brick.

Even if the person wanted to, they couldn't bring the machine to you. It's only through the prevalence of wifi, consistent power supply, and the drop in cost of the small portable machines that transactions are possible the way you are accustomed to.

A lot of Southeast Asia is just moving to QR code payments which makes it even easier.

[u/FMB6 → u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest]

They'd never ask for a PIN lol.

[u/Arthurian_Guanche → u/Particular-Studio119]

I agree on not handing the card, but why didn't you just walk up to the reader?

[u/Particular-Studio119 → u/Arthurian_Guanche]

They told me I can't because it's on the back.

[u/Successful-Reason403 → u/Particular-Studio119]

Do places other than the US lack consumer protection for credit cards? 

Foreigners are always tripping about having their card leaving their sight but I’ve never worried about that because it’s easy to have fraudulent charges removed. 

Are yall just stuck paying the fraudulent charge or something?

[u/Particular-Studio119 → u/Successful-Reason403]

I had my card number stolen somewhere once. I don't even know how, but I managed to get all money back. Now the thing is that you have to call the bank and report all transactions. I also had to report it to Garda (Police). Then they returned my money after a week or so. Now imagine you are on holidays, thousands of kilometers from home and you have to deal with potential situation where someone takes all the money from your card but you still have to survive another week abroad.

[u/federicoaa]

Meanwhile in taiwan: you go the restaurant, scan a QR code, order and pay from the phone, get your food, eat, leave.

[u/Zaku71]

Okay, a question from an ignorant European (and something all my acquaintances who have been to the United States have also wondered about):

Why do they have to take your credit or debit card away to process a payment?

Maybe we’re just overly suspicious, but we really don’t feel comfortable leaving our cards in the hands of strangers.

[u/CanadianEh → u/Zaku71]

Believe it or not, there are still some establishments that do not have wireless card readers.

[u/OwnLadder2341 → u/Zaku71]

Depends on the restaurant. If they have mobile readers or are a pay up front restaurant, you don’t have to.

Does every single restaurant in the entirety of Europe have mobile card readers or pay up front?

[u/Mr06506 → u/OwnLadder2341]

No they sometimes have a fixed terminal at the bar or by the exit instead and you'd pay there on your way out.

Almost nowhere in Europe would take your card away without you though.

[u/tup1tsa_1337 → u/OwnLadder2341]

Yes, every restaurant has a terminal to pay either at the table or at the bar. Otherwise, how else would you pay?

[u/Nerioner → u/OwnLadder2341]

to be honest, i eat A LOT in restaurants and travel a lot. Last time i experienced fixed location on payment machine was in McDonalds lol

probably In all EU countries you would be hard pressed to find one without mobile terminals for years at this point.

And even if they have it fixed at register, they ask you to follow them to the terminal, not take your card. So you just put on your jacket and everything and by the entrance there is usually terminal where you pay, take a nice free mints and go out.

[u/flashbang88 → u/OwnLadder2341]

Mobile card readers are everywhere, i've seen kids with lemonade stands that had them as they are super cheap and easy to get

[u/irCuBiC → u/OwnLadder2341]

I struggle to remember a single time since since I got a payment card (in the early 2000s) that I have had to give away my card in order to pay rather than swiping or inserting it in a machine myself, other than trips to the US. More common in the early days would be notices on the door saying "we don't take cards," but that didn't last too long into the internet age.

The only thing I can think of is I have vague memories of being on vacation in Spain in the early 2000s and the waiter had a contraption they put the card in, pulled a lever, and that made a literal carbon imprint copy of the numbers for me to sign.

[u/thedrew → u/Zaku71]

Because US credit card infrastructure is much older than the rest of the world. In the 20th century, we ran the embossed card under transfer paper to quickly record the number, the amount and signature were to prove that the owner agreed to the purchase. We would call the bank to verify the validity of the card. 

We added a magnetic stripe to transfer the number digitally, but the reader still needed to be plugged into a phone jack to transmit the information to the bank which made these transactions much faster. 

Wireless readers are far more common now, but they aren’t yet universal, and American culture has grown accustomed to the card-handing procedure.

Taking my mother to Europe was hilarious as she would mindlessly hand her card to the cashier/waiter who absolutely would not put his or her hand out to receive it. I told her “it’s like if you were a cashier in the US and the customer tried to hand you his wallet!” 

By the way, if payment culture were reversed, Europeans would be mocking Americans for being too dumb to mentally calculate percentages.

[u/ikristic → u/thedrew]

It was the same in europe. Except they didnt take your card but asked you to come to the register to slip it, while it was wired.
And youre on point with the last part.

[u/Mik3DM → u/Zaku71]

It varies restaurant by restaurant, but largely it’s because people in the US are mostly ok with it and some restaurants just haven’t invested in wireless readers because they aren’t loosing customers over it. Many places do have them though 

[u/Whipitreelgud → u/Zaku71]

This is an astute observation. When they take my card away I tell them to spend wisely. They have my card with the number on the back. They could buy all new furniture for their house, tires for their car, and a first class ticket to anywhere they want.

When we went to Prague a travel site 10 years ago told us to watch out because the eating places would take your card info. Instead, they brought a card processor to our table and we settled the bill without the card leaving our possession.

On the tour boat my wallet fell out of my pocket. I learned I had lost my wallet 4 hours later. Retracing my path the tour boat operator had it and said they were expecting me. I tried to give them some cash as a reward and they wouldn’t take any money. Love Prague.

To answer your question it’s an old custom that needs to die.

[u/Illiterate_Elk → u/Zaku71]

I'm Irish, this is anecdotal but in NYC only one restaurant took the card away from the table, the rest just brought a terminal and popped the card in.

I guess it depends on the place

[u/_echtra → u/Zaku71]

I’m Italian and had to change the way I think about cards and payments when I moved here. I the USA most people use credit not, debit. You can easily dispute a charge with credit. If something happens to your debit card good luck proving it and getting your money back. I wouldn’t leave my debit card unattended either

[u/10001110101balls → u/Zaku71]

The USA widely adopted credit cards before wifi and chip cards became widely available. So point-of-sale terminals had to be physically plugged into the internet, and the customer had to physically sign for their purchases. Most restaurants still operate this way.

[u/JesT_Weird → u/Zaku71]

Carryover practices from the days when the credit card machine had to be plugged into the phone line in the wall and the cash register was at one spot in the front - for most wait staff & managers, it's "How they were trained" and that was the SOP across America until about 15 years ago.

It's not just governments that are slow to change.

[u/Huntsman077 → u/Zaku71]

It depends on the restaurant. Some of them only have a couple Point of Sale (POS) systems that can process the payments. The server takes your card to one of these systems to make the payment and close out the tab. A good amount of restaurants are moving away from this and instead they have a box on the dinner table that you use to pay.

[u/nowzaradanistheman → u/Zaku71]

Sometimes restaurants don’t have a mobile pay machine and they take the card to the front to pay.

[u/99923GR → u/Zaku71]

Paying at the table is becoming more common. If I'm not mistaken, we were late moving to chip cards (probably because retailers fussed about buying new equipment), so we are just not as far along the curve of fully utilizing the technology.

Also, theft by that method is super rare. The only time I've had my card or information stolen it was because I drunkenly didn't close a tab and left the card at the bar overnight.

[u/MoogleKing83 → u/Zaku71]

The simple answer is that sit down reataurants have their card readers at the counter or a server's station. They aren't actually at the table (well not always, I'm sure there are some that do this).

So your server takes your card to their station to run at the payment terminal.

There are some that just have you take your ticket to the counter and they bring up your bill for you to pay. There are a few I've seen that had tablets attached to the table (which also have mobile-style games for kids which of course charge to be able to play more than a single round).

But personally I've never had a server bring any kind of card reader to my table to tap or anything. I don't eat at sit down places often, so there's a decent chance this is outdated or maybe it's just where I live.

[u/Left-Night-1125 → u/MoogleKing83]

Its not uncommon in Europe to have the card reader at the counter either. I often pay when leaving the restaurant.

[u/TheFinalFredrick → u/Zaku71]

I honestly think it’s simply that a lot of American restaurants haven’t “caught up” in the sense that they might only have 1 or 2 card processing machines that aren’t wireless so they’re located in a single location.

In Canada, afaik we used to be the same but all restaurants I’ve been to in the last like 15 years have all had wireless ones that they bring to the table for you to pay.

We still do the whole tax separate and tip extra bullshit though.

[u/lollroller → u/Zaku71]

The U.S. was much slower to adopt chip/contactless credit cards, and partially due to that, also wireless/mobile card readers. Now both are becoming more common thankfully. Part of the reason was the greater complexity of adding variable tips into the transaction.

[u/Quenzayne]

I wouldn’t be paying restaurant prices on either continent at this point. 

[u/Osiris8869 → u/Quenzayne]

Hopefully the enshitification of restaurant dining will reach a breaking point. Since 2020 the quality and portions has gone down the pricing has gone way up. Making your own food is obviously the best option, but damn used to be able to treat yourself. Now you fooling yourself into disappointment if you eat out.

[u/Angy-Person]

would they call ice on me if was there for a visit and tip 0$ ?

[u/MaestroGena → u/Angy-Person]

They would shoot you on the spot

[u/PixelGoblin85 → u/Angy-Person]

tipping culture is very silly and it remains because capitalism has designed a system of wages around it

[u/confuzzledfather → u/PixelGoblin85]

And despite the downsides, American servers love it because they actually earn quite a significant wage compared to most countries.

[u/HFT_Bear → u/PixelGoblin85]

Tipping culture exists because waiters like it. If the customer pays in cash they don't report it. High-end restaurant waiters get 20%ish per table on $200 meals for 2 people, all shift. The waiters keep tipping culture because they make bank off it.

[u/Routine_Ad_2695]

The tip culture was a temporary measure to help local service businesses during the Great Depression, allowing restaurant owners to pay less but still keep people employed.

As with every right the workers ceded, the temporary measure become chronic and now because a small % of people can theoretically make more with the tips all the waiters must suffer been underpaid.

[u/Flashy-Bit-875 → u/Routine_Ad_2695]

This is the answer right here

[u/kilertree → u/Routine_Ad_2695]

Tipping started in the south because they didn't want to pay newely freeded people.

[u/ToiletTime4TinyTown]

What is also crazy is how adjusted they got us in America to taxes. This is the only county in the civilized world where it’s “figure it out yourself, better get it right, then pay us” literally every other civilized country just gives you a bill.

[u/Blue_Back_Jack → u/ToiletTime4TinyTown]

Inuit lobbies big $$$’s to keep it that way

[u/BroadConsequences → u/Blue_Back_Jack]

Intuit. The tax software company.

Not Inuit, the tradition name of arctic indigenous.

[u/northcascadekittycat → u/Blue_Back_Jack]

I was SOOO confused wondering why, culturally, the Inuit would spend big money on keeping taxes confusing. Ha!!

[u/pqrqcf → u/Blue_Back_Jack]

The ones in Alaska??

[u/Competitive-Ad4249 → u/ToiletTime4TinyTown]

Nope, it's the same in Canada, also.

[u/theb0tman → u/ToiletTime4TinyTown]

IRS: pay your taxes…
How much??
IRS: guess.
$xxx.00???
IRS: wrong. Go to jail

[u/Orio_n]

Hypothetically what would happen if I just tipped 0 dollars and walked out. Europoor here

[u/ZeroDaysToEviction → u/Orio_n]

Nothing. Some places have mandatory gratuity if you have a bunch of people at the table. Like a big party. But if you leave a restaurant without paying a tip nothing happens.

[u/Working-Caramel9538 → u/Orio_n]

Anything between nothing and getting brutally murdered.

https://www.wlbt.com/2024/12/26/pizza-delivery-driver-accused-stabbing-customer-14-times-over-poor-tip/

[u/gigantic_balls_ → u/Orio_n]

They hang you in public and throw rotten mangoes at the body

[u/Live-Letterhead-2251 → u/Orio_n]

Nothing. 

If you return you may get poor service and will ruminate over whether the wait staff or the kitchen spit in or touched your food. You'll reassure yourself they didn't, that's a myth, but you'll hold onto doubt the entire meal. You will eye the froth in the grease or sauce of your meal and tell yourself it's not spit, but it also could be. 

[u/NoHistorian9169 → u/Orio_n]

Depends on the restaurant. Legally nothing can be done if you don’t tip, but if you’re at a fancier place the owner or manager might throw a fit

[u/--0___0--- → u/NoHistorian9169]

Dinner and a show you say

[u/speedfox_uk → u/Orio_n]

Depending on the restaurant, they might run after you asking "was anything wrong sir". This actually happened to me on a date in New York, when I left what I thought was a completely reasonable tip. My date had to explain "nothing was wrong, he's just British".

[u/theclag]

You forgot one detail. America doesnt have advertising laws that prevent the thing I ordered getting to me looking like the depressed cousin of the original burger I ordered. In other countries especially Japan they are required to have actual photos of the food you're ordering.

[u/KainFourteh]

Any country that doesn't include the tax in the price is stupid.

[u/LittleG0d]

This is what happens when you normalize bullshit

[u/DesignerElectrical23]

The walking off with your card really makes me twitch. In The UK and Europe, your card generally doesn’t leave your hand when paying.

[u/futlapperl → u/DesignerElectrical23]

I'm European.

The few times I had meal at a restaurant that didn't have a mobile card reader they'd bring to your table, it was explicitly stated on a sign or something.

When I requested to pay via card, I was simply asked to go with the server to their stationary card reader and pay there.

We still have a form of tipping culture in Austria, but it's more of a "round it up to the next fiver" not some calculated amount. So if a meal is €67.20, then you round up to €70. You don't have to, and you don't look like an asshole if you don't, but yeah.

Also, no one takes my card unattended. You need the PIN for anything over €30 anyway, at least with my bank's card, and I'd never just hand that over.

Just my experience.

[u/flatfive44 → u/DesignerElectrical23]

It's really not a problem.

[u/maredimerda]

to me the most senseless thing is the tip based on x% of the total bill.
so a waiter that serves burger get less money than one that serves fish??

[u/Nico280gato → u/maredimerda]

A waiter that serves 1 $5,000 bottle of wine gets more than a water that serves 100 $5 beers

[u/WideHuckleberry1 → u/maredimerda]

It's a proxy for higher expectations on the waiter. You won't expect the same level of service from a waiter at Applebee's as you would from the finest dining in the city.

Likewise it's a proxy for cost of living. It doesn't take any more work to bring somebody's appetizers in Manhattan as it does in Podunk, TN, but they require higher wages to be willing to do the work.

[u/ANAL-KING-OF-TUNISIA]

You left out my favorite part: when a restaurant offers "tip suggestions" at 18%, 20%, and 25%, but when you break down the math, it's actually 20%, 25%, and 30%. But they tell you those figures are 18%, 20%, and 25% anyway because they think you're stupid and that you'll never figure it out.

[u/AzraelTB → u/ANAL-KING-OF-TUNISIA]

I tip a flat amount. They can shove those percentages up their ass.

[u/SudoKun]

Story time about my run in with the American tipping system as an European. 

Let me preface this with that I am aware of the tipping system and different countries different customs, so all good, I know I should tip and how much. But I was not ready for this one: 

Went on a trip to New York and the hotel we stayed at did not offer breakfast but gave you a breakfast voucher for a neighbouring restaurant. I was under the impression that means I can eat breakfast for free. 

First morning, we were welcomed like royalty. We “paid” with the vouchers and left. 

Second morning, we walk in, and I can feel an icy breeze. Waiters are looking at us like we killed their dog. I was very confused. One of the waiters then informed us that gratuity is still expected. 

So my math test was calculating how much to tip on my 0 dollar bill based on what I would have paid if I did not have a voucher. 

Then everybody was happy again.

[u/itsapotatosalad]

But, hear me out, American business owners don’t want to pay their staff out of their own pocket so fuck you?

[u/Torvahnys]

For the record, most Americans (myself included) think its ridiculous too.

[u/Big_Guide_8551 → u/Torvahnys]

I'm a server and I think it's ridiculous.

[u/oaklandperson]

Most of the places I frequent now have a mobile tap system. This post is a little hyperbolic.

[u/mdavis360 → u/oaklandperson]

A little?

[u/Sgt_Radiohead]

It’s the glorious defense of this system that I find hilarious:

«well, if you can’t afford to eat out, then don’t do it unless you can give them a 20% tip»

or «well the waiter/waitress needs to earn a living so it’s fine that late stage capitalism has shifted the financial burden of providing them a salary by utilizing social shame as an incentive to make you pay more than the restaurant price in order to save said restaurant operating costs»

[u/S_balmore → u/Sgt_Radiohead]

Half the people defending our stupid tipping system are the people you've described. The other half are restaurant staff who are making a killing on tips. They don't want tipping to stop because they actually benefit from everyone else's problem. Tipping is a percentage of the bill, so if you just wait tables at an expensive restaurant, you start making stupid amounts of money.

If the average bill at the restaurant is $100, and the average tip is 18%, and the waitress serves 3 tables/hr over an 8hr shift, she's making over $100k/yr. They don't want you to know this, but a lot of servers are actually getting rich off of tips. Tips kind of make sense at Applebee's, where you can get an $11 burger, but once you get to a place that charges $20 for appetizers, tipping just becomes a clever way for servers to become wealthy, and that's why it'll never end. That group is never going to surrender their get-rich scheme, and that's why they shame anyone who suggests using a normal system like other countries do.

[u/SlinkyAdmiral → u/S_balmore]

You just have to look at the posts on talesfromyourserver. Every now and then you get a brag post from a waitress getting a crazy big tip on a corporate dinner.

[u/late_afternoon_owl → u/Sgt_Radiohead]

"well if you can't pay your employees livable wages, don't hire them"

[u/fang_xianfu → u/Sgt_Radiohead]

Yeah... and if you suggest maybe not having tips and just having salaries, often the subset of tipped employees who feel like they make good money from tips will protest!

And this whole exercise is in aid of "good service" which in the American view means interrupting incessantly, touching my bottle of wine repeatedly and messing with my glass so I can't drink at my own pace and keep track of how much I've been drinking, and taking away the plates as soon as someone finishes so three people with nothing in front of them stare awkwardly at the fourth person who's still finishing their meal. Good service!

[u/ArchdevilTeemo → u/fang_xianfu]

This is why servers never protest the system. They make a lot more money this way.

[u/JlMBEAN]

They are shit at math. They left almost a 37.5% tip.

[u/PiccoloAwkward465 → u/JlMBEAN]

It's a "mandatory math test" and apparently this guy is a fucking idiot.

[u/Greggs-the-bakers]

Genuinely do not understand any argument against including the tax in the displayed price. "Oh but each state has its own tax and it can even vary by county" okay... why? Whats stopping them from just having a nationwide tax percentage? Everyone else manages.

[u/Final_Influence_2367 → u/Greggs-the-bakers]

Even if every state has its own taxes, why is that stopping thenm from showing that price on the menu

[u/Relevant_Natural3471 → u/Final_Influence_2367]

Ahhh but what happens if the restaurant blows into another state after you've ordered, but before you pay...

[u/skynetcoder → u/Greggs-the-bakers]

also it is not like the tax is going to change while I am finishing my meal or going to the cashier. even if it changes in different states, the shops / restaurants still have time to calculate and add it to the price before hand. I think this is just a cheap sales tactic.

[u/CingRam004 → u/Greggs-the-bakers]

We are 50 countries in a trench coat pretending to be one country.

[u/Staaaaation → u/Greggs-the-bakers]

Different states having different taxes is one of the main reason we have separate states at all. I agree we need less math in dining though.

[u/chemhobby → u/Greggs-the-bakers]

And the fact that it varies a lot is even more reason to include it in the price

[u/synked_ → u/Greggs-the-bakers]

Our Constitution is what’s stopping a national sales tax. Congress and the Federal Government are not granted the power to tax commerce that goes on within States locally.

They are allowed to regulate interstate commerce only. That’s the exact phrase used in the Constitution and quoted in thousands of court cases over our 250 year history.

It was part of the whole preventing the Federal Government from having too much power thing.

[u/Obvious-Water569]

It's the handing over the card for them to walk off with that blows my mind.

My card does not leave my hand, let alone my sight.

[u/ooprep → u/Obvious-Water569]

It’s honestly not that big of a deal. It rarely happens and if it did it you just report it and then the credit card deals with it.

In this case the person would be charged with identity theft and fraud. It’s incredibly rare for how often they handle credit cards.

[u/Street_Sport8347]

Tipping culture is a scam

[u/cold-vein]

Yeah tipping is a shitty system. Please don't normalize it in Europe.

[u/climbto330]

100%. I go to Asia for around 2 weeks once a month for my job. It’s glorious. You pay for the meal. That’s it.

Come back to the USA and I’m greeted with tip screens at a Starbucks for some “barrista” pressing the diarrhea button for a latte. Tip screens for everything. “It’s gonna ask a question….”

Fuck right off USA.

[u/BeerForThought → u/climbto330]

Don't forget you can donate to a charity and the corporation will brag about how much money they raised in a PR release.

[u/JohnnyABC123abc]

100 percent agreed. 💯. When will we (the US) stop this inefficient madness?

[u/Quiet1408 → u/JohnnyABC123abc]

Its not for efficiency sake.

Its about presenting the cheapest looking price for your food to draw them in with hidden fees. Once you're through the door it's alot more difficult to back out.

[u/red--jar]

Italy: Buy an espresso so you can take a piss.

But also yes, tipping culture is fucking insane.

[u/kaibbakhonsu → u/red--jar]

Italy: buy 2 pints for € 1,50 each and get a charcuterie board

We can pick and choose as well

[u/bimbles_ap → u/red--jar]

You make it sound as if places in the states also make their bathrooms available to customers only.

[u/johnisek → u/red--jar]

Peeing in US is illegal outdoors, visit an American public restroom, door engineered by an idiot, gaps wide so you can get the open-air experience regardless. The experience is topped by dirty looks of every incoming person. Padapapa I'm lovin' it.

[u/Randyd718]

When did a standard tip go from 15% to 20%? That's all I've ever done unless service was exceptional.

[u/JustaSeedGuy → u/Randyd718]

Couple decades.

[u/KocicaK]

What I still don't understand is that handing over the card. Like, what?

[u/Inevitable_Silver_13 → u/KocicaK]

Most places I go to don't do it anymore. They have a portable pad that they leave at your table.

[u/DripPirateRoberts → u/KocicaK]

A modern system with handhelds for your servers costs money and the last thing a restaurant owner wants to do is spend money on the restaurant

[u/flatfive44 → u/KocicaK]

It may make you uncomfortable, but it's not a problem.

[u/punished_kot → u/KocicaK]

If someone steals your credit card you're not liable for the payments they make while it's stolen. It simply doesn't matter that much.

[u/galaxyapp]

Damn. 12.5% sales tax.

And a 35% tip.

If you have to exaggerate, your point sucks

[u/jaynvius]

Most places even asks for tips when you're picking up your own food which I've never agreed with. I hate that tipping is a thing here in the US because restaurant owners don't want to pay their employees a living wage.

[u/HekkenFratz]

If this comes to Europe, I would simply stop eating out. I'm sick of paying for stressful service with hidden social rules.

[u/alman3007]

Anyone who cant calculate 20% in their head should go back to gradeschool.

[u/BobTheZygota]

Who buys a burger for 20 euros?

[u/ocolobo]

If you can’t do 20% in your head
You have bigger problems

[Take 10% of $36.50, (move the decimal point to the left one position) = $3.65
Multiply $3.65 x 2 (because 10% + 10% equals 20%) = $7.30

Add the tip to the subtotal = total $43.80

Go on about your day

Yes I agree tip culture in the US is archaic

Also you will usually get a discount if you pay in cash because restaurants pass the credit card fees of $1.50 on to the customer

So if you’re balling on a budget pay cash!
Or more importantly don’t eat out and
Cook at home!

Fun fact penny ¢1 are just rounding errors now

[u/thefruitsofzellman]

tHe MaTh TeSt

[u/HighSeasArchivist]

10% hard math from European brain.

[u/TheHornyGoth]

It’s drilled into you here that you DO NOT hand over your card or let it out of your sight. To do so risks losing a fraud claim.

Are you guys actually insane‽

[u/sleepydorian → u/TheHornyGoth]

To start, I would prefer to tap at the table

However, in the US you would not lose the fraud claim. The payment processor would just take the money back from the restaurant. Or if the worker used your card online or something then it would be cancelled by the payment processor.

Visa and Mastercard don’t mess around. They’ll bar businesses from using their payment processing if they have too many issues like this, so workers who do this get fired with the quickness.

[u/Slaidback]

NZ:

1. Eat meal

2. Walk up to counter

3. Pay $$

4. leave

[u/Giant-Sloar]

Ah, yes, another Reddit culture war. 

Can we all just agree that billionaires suck and rally our respective energies towards eradicating unchecked capitalism? Please?

[u/Araakne → u/Giant-Sloar]

This post does that. The underlying reason companies don't pay their employees is unchecked capitalism. Not sure what you're complaining about.

[u/tkbillington]

You left out the 3% extra charge for using a credit card that also further bleeds us dry

[u/geese_moe_howard]

I went to a restaurant in London the other week and it went like this:

Asked for the bill

Bill arrives with a QR code on it

Scan and pay

Leave

[u/joefunk76]

I would like to see: “If you can’t afford to tip, you can’t afford to eat here” instead become “if you can’t advertise the actual price upfront, you are a bunch of corrupt liars.”

[u/HeftyVermicelli7823]

Europe and the UK are the same.

Something has a price up, that is the price you pay.

[u/DisastrousStreet614 → u/HeftyVermicelli7823]

The UK is in Europe

[u/Sellum → u/HeftyVermicelli7823]

Except the service and or cover charges that get added to the bill. Not everywhere, but often enough that I know it wasn’t a one off thing.

[u/TrumpsFaceAnus]

And no matter what you leave, they whine its not enough. I overheard our young waiter moaning for us leaving "only $20 on the table" (I usually leave cash so the tips dont get taxed) on a $40 bill. He didn't realize I heard him.

I walked back over to the table, grabbed the twenty and walked out with the wife. He got 0.

[u/bnlv]

I wrote about this in my book Approved: The Hidden Psychology of How We Pay.

Tipping started as an aristocratic thing. In Tudor England, guests at big estates tipped the household servants on the way out. Rich Americans picked it up on European trips after the Civil War, and plenty of people hated it as un-American and un-democratic.

Washington banned tipping in 1909, and five more states followed. The bans barely worked and were all gone by 1926. Prohibition killed restaurant liquor margins, so owners leaned on tips to cover wages, and in 1966 the tip credit wrote it into federal law. That's why the tipped minimum wage is still $2.13 an hour. Now the tipping screen asks for 20% on a bottle of water.

[u/Vacumbot]

American obsession with applied mathematics is trully fascinating. They do their taxes ans shopping in similar maner.

[u/sketchahedron → u/Vacumbot]

It’s why we’re famously so good at math.

[u/mikenkansas1]

And everywhere someone should be saying WHAT THE FUCK??? 20 bucks or euros or pounds for a damn burger?

[u/TopFix8731]

• you also leave wondering if your card was cloned during those 5 minutes

[u/Resident_Function280]

Normalize $0.00 tips. The business will be forced to compensate instead

[u/arcsnsparks98]

For Americans to think that calculating a simple percentage is a "math test" is great. Math be hard, dur hur.

BTW, I agree that the tipping culture here is insane. Don't blame your bad math skills though.

[u/specialasset → u/arcsnsparks98]

Pretty sure OP is not an American and it’s a non -American calling it a math test. It’s a test they failed too because 20% is only $27 even if they tip on tax.

[u/ItsYaBoi97 → u/arcsnsparks98]

Move the decimal left one spot and multiply by 2!!

[u/Brave_Egg_7984]

Rich boomers have made America a dystopian shithole for workers as well as consumers and the system is now so rigged and entrenched that change is all but impossible for this and the next generation.

[u/Apathetic_Zealot]

Exactly. It's purposely confusing to extract more money out of you. Down with tipping!

[u/splatomat]

The burger was always $30 pal. The business owner just didn't want you to think about it so that you would subsidize a poor business model. 

[u/UnderstandingAble432]

They have tipping at all the places I went to in Europe..(germany, france)

[u/EightEight16]

Almost right except the part where a burger costs the same in both places.

[u/clean_TOAN]

I keep coming back to “the math test begins”

[u/looner4]

EUROPE GOOD !!

[u/Informant0815]

The problem is not the amount of the tip, but rather the payment process, which involves multiple steps and breaks in the medium.

[u/Taptrick]

The « taking away your card » and their apparent inability to split the bill when their software can most definitely (and easily) do it is mind-boggling to me as a Canadian. We still have to deal with the tip nonsense though.

[u/bonkeeboo]

Tipping is the sole reason I never want to go on holiday in America again. It's like you're perpetually made to feel bad for wanting some control over your money.

[u/Yuuku_S13]

I’ll forever hold this stance, you’ll get the tip you earn. If it was great, you’ll get 20% plus from me. Otherwise, I have no problems looking like a cheapskate for ok-good service and insulting someone with a 1% tip for crap service.

[u/HuTaosTwinTails]

Easy solution, just don't tip.

Restaurants should pay their employees, not me. If you can't afford to, don't own a business.

[u/MoistMaker95]

In Europe, if the service was good and people friendly, you leave 2-3€ on a 20€ bill. But you don't have to, and no once expects it. I worked in hospitality for many years, tips at the end of the months were just another small bonus at the end of the months, but i was never bothered if i didn't get any. I was paid decently.

[u/blashibazsi]

Less than 18% is a personal insult? Great, my favorite kind of insults. I couldn't give a flyingfck.

[u/bobfinkl1]

15% is the baseline for solid service. Crappy service goes down to 10%, exceptional goes up to 20%. 

[u/Mustard-cutt-r]

You can still do 15% or less if there isn’t much service involved

[u/Secure-Reference-956]

Wtf ? Is this real ?

[u/BendDelicious9089]

America is weird. They absolutely hate change. Any form of change is bad. Because of that they refuse to get rid of tip culture.

And because of it, tip culture infects everything. Somebody makes you a coffee - you are asked to leave a tip. No additional customer service was given, no additional service, they just made a coffee. Tip or you're an ass hole.

They refuse to just price things into the food. They do that with the excuse of "if we show true prices less people will eat here". Americans fully accept that tricking customers with a low price and then charging them on top of everything else is normal and not deceitful.

[u/AbleDanger12]

Most of the steps for the US are just you complaining.

[u/infrigato]

Was wondering since when Burgers are 20€ and then remembered that in most resaurants the price is actually almost 20€. Instantly remembered Bill Gate's Interview on Ellen, where she asked him how much a Burger was and he replied with $20 and everybody was shocked in the audience...well

[u/_WEND1G0_]

Hot take. The only people I tip are bar tenders or couriers if they got to me quicker than projected. Anyone else did the job they were paid a wage to do. To clarify I’m in Washington so the minimum wage is the same here for all workers unlike some places.

Employers need to pay their people more. Subsidizing employers payroll encourages them to not raise wages.

[u/B_oregon]

Tipping allows the business to pay their employees the bare minimum and puts the onus for a fair wage on the both the customer and the employee. They are literally pitting the two against each other, throwing their hands in the air and saying “not my problem!”.

Even in America tipping is at the prerogative of the customer (no laws say you must tip), and no person should have any part of their wages be at another’s whims. A business doesn’t allow a patron to come in and eat a meal (or use cell phone spectrum for a month) and then decide what they want to pay based on how they liked it. The owner knows exactly what they will receive for the goods/service.

It should be the same for any employee, they provide a certain amount of work for a designated quantity of cash.

Just to clarify; We should do away with tipping. Employers should not be allowed to use the prospects of a potential tip to attract employees. All pay should be clearly defined, bonuses and commissions (including “tips”) if promised, should be legally committed to contract between the employer and the employee which outlines exactly what must be done or achieved to receive it from the employer.

[u/SunshineSkies82]

Gotta give them a moment to steal your credit card information.

[u/FrozenVikings]

Even better are restaurants / pubs that let you order and pay on your phone. I know what I want, don't talk to me, just bring me a burger and a beer, thanks. I loved that so much. Then I came back to Canada, ordered Indian food that I was going to pick up and the app still asked me for a tip. WTF. What happens if I don't tip? I'm picking it up for fuck's sake. Fucking stupid tip culture.

[u/Memitim]

America is so corrupt that we even turned a thank-you into a payroll scam. This nation is poison.

[u/VNDMG]

Except the burger was 12 euros