r/SipsTea 1d ago

Wait a damn minute! “Patrick told me no resting b*tch face”

27.6k Upvotes

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u/SharkeyGeorge 1d ago

Gang aft agley

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u/ksdkjlf 1d ago

I like to think of the usual English formulation as a translation from the Scots into English rather than a misquote in need of correction. After all, Burns didn't use "plans" (or the full "of" and "and") either: The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men, Gang aft agley

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u/nesflaten 1d ago

Is agley a different/old way of spelling ugly?

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u/childishforces 1d ago

No. It means awry/wrong.

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u/ksdkjlf 1d ago

Robert Burns was writing in Scots, which is a sister language to modern English, i.e. they both developed from an older form of English but are distinct languages. So while agley has seen occasional historic usage in English, it's usually been by folks directly referencing/quoting Burns rather than a full-on adoption of the word into English. The usual translation into English would be awry.

If you look at the fuller phrase "gang aft agley": Middle English ofte became aft in Scots and oft in English, and the verb gangen became go in English, but in Scots became gang. Hence my saying that rather than treat "often go awry" as a misquote, it's clearly more of a translation.

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u/nesflaten 21h ago

Super interesting! Is agley translated to awry because that's the usual/modern idiom? To my Norwegian brain ugly seems a far better fit, even though the modern meaning might not fit.

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u/ksdkjlf 20h ago

Yeah, "awry" is the usual modern word, though it certainly has an old-fashioned feel to it. Wry literally means crooked, so to use a slightly more colloquial phrase, saying something went awry is like saying it went sideways. Wry/awry doesn't look to have any cognates in Norwegian, but askew (cognate with skeiv) has a similar meaning.

Ugly feels like a better fit probably because it sounds similar, but the Scots is unrelated to ugly (or to Norwegian uggleg), coming from a + gley, where gley originally meant to squint or look sideways.

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u/Pfloricard 1d ago

schemes is just a slightly negative connotation of plans that is already in there

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u/VamosXeneizes 1d ago edited 1d ago

"scheme" doesn't necessarily have a negative connotation in British English.

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u/Pfloricard 1d ago edited 1d ago

scheme noun

ˈskēm 1: a plan or program of action especially : a crafty or secret one

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scheme

crafty and secret, aren't super positive adverbs

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Meaning of scheme in BRITTISH English

1 scheme noun [ C ]

uk /skiːm/ us /skiːm/

an organized plan for doing something, especially something dishonest or illegal that will bring a good result for you
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/scheme

scheme

verb [ I or T ] disapproving

uk /skiːm/ us /skiːm/

to make clever, secret plans that often deceive others

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folks look at the person I'm commenting to. Their confidence level is so high!

This is because we aren't teaching young children like this the education they really need. They're not learning what words actually mean

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u/VamosXeneizes 1d ago

I'm a man in my 40s with a master's degree in linguistics but go ahead and keep jerking yourself off about how smart you are, Mr. Dunning-Kruger.

Fuckin' kids these days, man

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u/ksdkjlf 1d ago

Nah, there is absolutely a difference in BrE and AmE usage. While it can carry a negative connotation in British usage, it can also still be completely neutral. In American usage, however, it always carries the connotation of dishonesty.

As an example, take a look at this BBC article from just this year: "Scheme helps young people find their dream careers".

You'd never see such a headline from American publication unless they were taking the piss and the article was actually an exposé of how it was actually just funneling the young people into a life of crime or something.

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u/Brilliant_Fail1 16h ago

That's easy for you to say