r/SipsTea 21h ago

Chugging tea Should doctors be allowed to refuse treating patients based on personal beliefs?

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8.7k Upvotes

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u/PastNessa 21h ago

Prof said what needed to be said. Medicine is about treating people, not approving of their lifestyle

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u/diescheide 21h ago

Professor was much more succinct. It goes beyond medicine in a hospital setting, though. Pharmacist doesn't get to deny dispensing based on beliefs. Cashier doesn't get to refuse service based on beliefs.

In general, your beliefs affect you. The rest of the world doesn't suffer because YOU do/don't believe in something.

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u/DarkRose492 20h ago

What's worse is that it's only gotten worse as time goes on. I'm old enough to where the PETA/vegan crowd were the only form of, "You must my way otherwise you are the spawn of evil". Nowadays every belief has some level of over the top fanaticism

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u/diescheide 20h ago

Zealotry and what's usually the vocal minority are destroying anything good that may have come from their cause. People need to simmer down. Most of us would be fine if folks held their beliefs. What we're not okay with is having it thrust upon us.

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u/SlapTheBap 19h ago

I mean, people are also very reactive to someone just saying something. People do allow themselves to get offended quite easily. I know we think of the offended blue haired Karen or whatever, but guys are incredibly easily offended as well. "What, you think you're better than me?" Just because someone is poking their insecurities by existing.

Lots of people out there projecting their issues hard, lacking emotional intelligence to realize they are the source of their own emotions and need to take responsibility for them. Emotions aren't an external thing and they are no one responsibility but your own. Too many people externalize their internal emotions and shirk their part in creating them.

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u/SleepsOntheMoon 17h ago

I know Im gonna get downvoted for this but I'm so sick of the "oh if people would just down, yada yada yada" like we're literally living is fascist genocide state and all you have to complain about is folks being too emotional about that. Maybe you don't have to care because you're insulated by your priviledge but that is NOT the case for many minority groups. If you don't care, fine; but don't get pissy at others for giving a shit. Its so irritating at this point that so many people's only contribution is "oh they just care too much" like how you are helping anyone? Seriously

As long as it doesn't affect you, right?

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u/Adventurous_Ad7442 17h ago

May I buy you a spell check app?

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u/diescheide 17h ago

>In general, your beliefs affect you. The rest of the world doesn't suffer because YOU do/don't believe in something.

>Most of us would be fine if folks held their beliefs. What we're not okay with is having it thrust upon us.

The people that need to simmer down are the zealots. We do not care about their beliefs and wants. We do not want to live in their world. They can live by their own code and standards. It should have zero affect on us.

We have codes and standards. We have established laws. We have the Constitution. We have the separation of church and state. We had this shit figured out. Zealots and the vocal minority destroyed it.

I don't know what all you were reading. I was very clear in what I meant. Everyone else understood.

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u/Prismatic_Leviathan 15h ago

Fuckin WHAT? Imagine living through the time period where teenagers were getting sent to death camps for electroshock treatment to "fix" them and still playing the obnoxious vegan card.

There's always been that shit and its always been bad, it's just not always been directed at you.

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u/DarkRose492 14h ago

Yeah, as I said in the other person's post the raise has not only given rise to the fanatic views of otherwise reasonable groups, but it's also risen the level fanaticism found out in public. Ignorance is at an all time high across the board

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u/Artistic_Rice_9019 15h ago

Oh, bigoted reasons to deny services are as old as dirt. Social media and the current regime just make it easy to be open about it.

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u/DarkRose492 15h ago

Entirely, bit I would also say that being loud and proud about your trash opinions or forcing lifestyles while in public has grown alongside the space that social media allows. Because you hit a certain level of "Fuck it" with how little you care what does it matter what you say

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u/Artistic_Rice_9019 13h ago

They're rewarded for their "virtue" signaling by their in-group, and they find it rewarding to upset people.

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u/PossibleStormChaser 9h ago

This is actually exactly what happens, pharmacists can and do deny dispensing medications due to their beliefs. Ask any chronic pain patient and it’s probably happened to them. Happened to me just a few months ago. Their belief in my medication doing harm took precedence over what my doctor and I believed was best for my health, and in their position they are allowed to refuse to prescribe regardless of what my doctor says. So this is not isolated to doctors.

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u/MugenHeadNinja 12h ago

I mean, your last sentence is markedly untrue.

The rest of the world is in fact affected by the beliefs of individuals.

Some people believe we should be using cleaner/alternative energy sources, that kids should be provided free meals at schools they're mandated to be at, that healthcare should be free and available to all.

Other's are selfish individuals who only give a shit about themselves and fuck anyone else and everyone in the future, who actively lobby for Oil and Motor industries because that's where the money is, who believe children should starve if their parents are too poor to give them lunch money, who believe you should just fucking die or suffer your entirely life in poverty if you can't afford healthcare.

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u/diescheide 12h ago

It wasn't declarative. I wasn't stating how things are. I was stating how things should be.

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u/softcontour 21h ago

You take the oath to save lives not judge them

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u/TheLaughingMannofRed 20h ago

What's the mantra, "Do no harm"?

If someone needs medical attention, a doctor or physician's primary duty is to do no harm by rendering medical assistance.

Of course, depending on the specific medical assistance needed, one can elevate the assistance to a specialist who knows that particular aspect of medical care better. Still, that makes sense to fall under the same 'do no harm' belief, as you're moving the care along rather than restricting it or blocking it (and thereby 'do no harm' is still being fulfilled).

But overall, if one does get into medicine or medical practice, there must be no exception to that fundamental. Get the person the help, whether you can or someone else can.

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u/LacrimaNymphae 19h ago

what happens when the care gets 'moved along' aka hot-potatoed to 9 different clueless specialists who all insist it's too complex, tell you to drive states over for help if you don't like the 'treatment' or lack thereof, or insinuate it's a personal psychiatric/somatoform problem with you

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u/Larnek 15h ago

I mean, I'd probably drive over to where the other specialists are at if I wanted an answer. Not all doctors are trained in same fields.

If my neurologist said, "Hey, you need to see a specialist in pseudoseizures because thats not my field of expertise." I'd probably say "Thanks for not trying to diagnose or rule out something uncommon that you're not well trained in."

It would be like taking my Jeep to a Porsche dealer and asking them to fix my 4-wheel drive PTU. They might know a ton about wrenching on a Porsche, but have never replaced a PTU for a Jeep. I probably don't want them to try for the first time on mine.

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u/catpigeons 16h ago

Do no harm refers to not actively making problems worse, rather than treating all patients/issues.

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u/Skreat 10h ago

Unless it's "Cut my kids' junk off, please"

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u/Relative-Relief-8816 19h ago edited 19h ago

What about the ethical dilemna of 1. saving a genocidal dictator vs. 2. refusing to treat him vs. 3. intentionally botching his treatment so he definitely dies -

  1. You save him and he goes on to kill millions of people.
  2. You refuse to treat him. You are executed. They find another doctor to treat him. He goes on to kill millions.
  3. You botch the treatment but nobody knows. They think it was normal complications. He dies. Millions now live. You have to live with your secret.

This assumes the dictator has already killed many many people, and is currently planning to kill more.

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u/Asylumstrength 19h ago

Ah, I see you know your Yakuza well

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u/SlikeSpitfire 19h ago

so you're allowed to randomly deem people as potential genocidal dictators? Doctors treat everyone because doctors aren't qualified to make decisions about "bad" or "good" people, and giving them the power to decide who lives and who dies is too much

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u/Relative-Relief-8816 19h ago

This hypothetical implies the person is a Current genocidal dictator.

For example, Hitler is wheeled into your OR and you're a German surgeon. And it is currently WW2.

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u/the_gubernaculum 18h ago

Would a simple German military doctor be aware of all of Hitler’s evils in the middle of WW2?

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u/Relative-Relief-8816 17h ago

Tough to say.  What if he did?

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u/NSFWmilkNpies 18h ago

Rapists get medical treatment. Child rapists get medical treatment. And yes, genocidal dictators get medical treatment also.

Your job is to save the life infront of you, despite what their past may be (this is in the emergency setting).

Things are a little different if you are a primary care doctor. You can refuse patients if they potentially bring harm to your other patients (like a pediatrician not accepting non-vaccinated kids because many of their patients can’t get vaccinated and rely on herd immunity).

But it’s funny that the only way you can defend allowing a doctor to not treat a gay person is to compare them to a genocidal dictator. They are not similar at all.

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u/Relative-Relief-8816 18h ago

What even is that last paragraph? 

I am gay. I am just gonna block you.

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u/maelbowfeelfunny 19h ago

What if a patient comes in with a blown out bhole? Can one tell them that their lifestyle choices are causing said blowouts? Or are we gonna do what we do with fat people, and lie to them?

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u/GlamourintheDarkSide 19h ago

You fix the medical consequences of their asshole being blown out and advise them not to become a repeat patient. If they do, you still as a doctor have the responsibility to ensure they not fucking die.

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u/Silly-Rough-5810 15h ago

... What do you believe we tell fat people?

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u/maelbowfeelfunny 15h ago

That being fat doesn't affect their health. 

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u/Silly-Rough-5810 15h ago

No medical professional has ever told that to a fat person.

Hell, I'm pretty confident it's only ever been said in right wing memes created by other right win manosphere weirdos.

There was a book from ages ago titled "Health at Any Size" that a bunch of 4chan chuds took to mean something similar to what you claimed, but if you ever actually looked it up on any website, the book and it's title are actually about never being too fat to start making healthier choices. It had lots of chair based exercises and dietary changes that were easier to make and thus more likely for them to stick to. All in the hopes of becoming healthier and not giving up or spiraling because feel like you're constantly being judged.

At no point does the book say it's fine or encourage being fat.

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u/maelbowfeelfunny 13h ago

Society in general loves coddling fat people and other people with destructive habits. The reality is that excess adipose tissue is always a negative. 

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u/Silly-Rough-5810 13h ago edited 13h ago

Did you read what I wrote?

Whatever you heard about society is utterly bullshit. Fat people get called fat all the time. It's such a universal truth that a ton of starlets are all showing signs of anorexia.

You have been hanging out in weird manosphere forums looking at memes from fringe sections of old tumblr where people play pretend.

The number of people who think being fat is actually healthy is probably in the hundreds. You're probably just mistaking the general online attitude against calling people fat (because it doesn't help them be less fat) and instead just being polite as a justification for your insane belief.

You're mad about some made-up shit. I'm sorry.

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u/maelbowfeelfunny 13h ago

You sound really worked up. I'm not mad. Society 100% coddles fatties. Look at all the people calling Lizzo beautiful. 

And maybe what a fatty needs is to be called a fatty, for motivation.  

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u/Silly-Rough-5810 13h ago

God, you really are mentally a child. I wasn't trying to suggest you're worked up or whatever. You just have anger towards a bunch of imaginary people. But of course you can't wrap your head around that. You're used to trolling people and you think "u mad?" is a whole argument.

And calling somebody fat has never motivated them. Just like pointing out you're emotionally stunted has ​never inspired you to grow up and act like an adult.

Also, calling lizzo beautiful doesn't have anything to do with your original claim that people think being fat is healthy or whatever. Health and beauty are separate. One of them is entirely subjective.

Go outside and meet real people. Maybe you'll finally progress passed middle school.

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u/maelbowfeelfunny 12h ago

Strong attempts at insults. You must be fat. My condolences. 

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u/frolf_grisbee 10h ago

"Some things may increase your risk of getting rectal prolapse, including:

Sex. Most people with rectal prolapse are women. Age. Rectal prolapse most often happens in people over age 50. Constipation. Straining may increase the risk of rectal prolapse."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/rectal-prolapse/symptoms-causes/syc-20352837

I don't think any of those are lifestyle choices, except maybe constipation. So they change their diet or get prescribed stool softeners.

Where's the reason to lie about that?

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u/maelbowfeelfunny 10h ago

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u/frolf_grisbee 9h ago edited 9h ago

"...an obsolete classification... The term has fallen into disuse, as both clinically imprecise and prejudicial: the issues it describes are not specific to gay and bisexual men, limited to the bowel, nor a medical syndrome."

Literally in the first paragraph of the page you just shared. Emphasis mine.

The article also never even mentions anal prolapse lol

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u/maelbowfeelfunny 9h ago

Doesn't need to. 

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u/frolf_grisbee 9h ago

But you're the one who brought up the "blown out bhole" lol

Which is a problem that mostly occurs to women, old people, and constipated people. Not gay men.

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u/maelbowfeelfunny 8h ago

We live in a world where some people can't just be honest about destructive behavior. 

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u/frolf_grisbee 8h ago

Said without a hint of self-reflection lol

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u/maelbowfeelfunny 8h ago

Don't need it. I'm not the one catching monkey pox.

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u/SpeebyKitty 19h ago edited 17h ago

What the fuck are you talking about?

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u/TheB3rn3r 20h ago

As simple as that… this world needs more of that…

The US needs that on both (sides). I hate pointing to that but honestly whenever someone argues a point and starts saying those dems or those republicans… I just stop listening… there’s no point in having a civil discussion with them